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 The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism

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PostSubject: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:44 am

Weimar Germany and Tsarist Russia lacked what the USA has: dynamic, deep seated and cultural capitalism. Styx and many others worry how the fringes are growing on both sides and the center is collapsing, which is a valid concern. But the current western world will not fall to the same forces that caused Germany and Russia to fail to extremism, simply because of the liberated power of capitalism.

They can demonized capitalism but that only creates new avenues and markets for capitalism to grow. Capitalism is the center that pushes back against the fringes, as Guattari said but this is a very good thing despite his concerns. Styx et al mistake the current major daemonic: it isn't fringe A vs fringe B, but fringes A and B vs central capitalism. And capitalism will not be defeated.

 

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 5:47 am

Trump is absolutely perfectly on target here: he attacks both fringes and he represents center capitalism as the liberating power. He wants to grow the economy and use jobs and prosperity to fight racism and bigotry-- yes. Trump is a genius. Fringe A and B (Antifa and NeoNazis) cannot capitalize because they do not believe in capital-ism. The destruction of history will continue only on the fringes, it cannot penetrate the center as it does in failed states, Marxist states or Islamic states.

 

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:07 am

What is all this radicalism in the west today, of fringe A vs fringe B?

Ah, we might say with Nietzsche, that finally humanity is learning how to take its ideas seriously...!

 

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Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”.  -N

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:26 pm

Yes, and this may only strengthen the market.

As if the left is Pepsi and the right is Coke - increasing fanaticism on each side increases the importance of both products in the public mind and raises the stakes, the stocks, the stock people put in things - it kills indifference, which is the one thing consumerism can't afford.

A lot of political agitation, fake news, is likely just aimed at exciting peoples hormones so that they go out and consume.
But this is somewhat besides your point -

The fact is indeed the there are two types of humans that now for there first time are exerting themselves straightforwardly for their values. These values are being revealed as we fight for them - decrypted into "world".

Naturally, all the fighting Trump is doing is good for the economy, A million jobs, countless manufacturing plants, mining operations, infrastructure - all this will only add to the value of American companies. This is the fight of the right, largely - fight for tangible values.

The lefts fight is for values of a rather intangible nature. The sort of value that have sustain the western economy of the past 30 years - popularity, based on popular phrasings of complicated social issues. It fights for the right to believe that the world is the green of eden, essentially - and this ideal of paradise is also a powerful engine of industry - be it intangibles - movies, media, music - dreams.

Dreams are a very important part of the western, especially the US economy. The left, in the best sense, is focussed on keeping dreams alive. They do not value logic, they often come to hate it because, if you are wearing at logic, logic seems to stand in the way of dreaming, and very few people are strong at logic.

One of the projects ahead of us is to erect logical frameworks that can sustain both the realism of the right and the best of the dreams of there left.
This would simply mean to work on the American continuum.

 

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:53 pm

Wow. Fucking right you are. The Left as radical jihadists fighting for their Allah, their dream-love. They are idealists to the core and must believe in the west as peaceful tolerant Eve in the green garden, where all animals get along perfectly and no harm is ever caused. Utopian doesn't really capture the full scope of their religion of dream ideologism.

Logic (also Logos) is reality, and reality is the enemy of all dreams. You stop dreaming when you wake into reality again. Red pill equals waking up in the morning. Blue pill equals wine and TV and a peaceful nights sleep.

I also like to dream, and you are right that reality needs dreams also, especially the reality of the west. Europe needs it too, maybe more than the US now because it used to dream well but now only seems to have dreamless sleep, and when it slips into REM has only nightmares.

We can unite Left and Right under the banner of meaningful dreaming. Create a new center as Styx said, but he didn't realize that capitalism is that center. What is capitalism but meaningful dreaming (dreaming in accord with reality)?

 

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You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”.  -N

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:22 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
What is all this radicalism in the west today, of fringe A vs fringe B?

Ah, we might say with Nietzsche, that finally humanity is learning how to take its ideas seriously...!

I wish that were true but I have my doubts.

Today it is hatred. I don't think it can be fairly said that Nietzsche proposed hatred.
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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:09 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:

We can unite Left and Right under the banner of meaningful dreaming. Create a new center as Styx said, but he didn't realize that capitalism is that center. What is capitalism but meaningful dreaming (dreaming in accord with reality)?

Yes.
Because for capitalism to work, investors need to be able to imagine the fruits of the company they invest in before it yields these fruits.
So dreaming is an essential part of capitalism. Without it, it simply would not be able to start a heavy industrial business.

The industrial revolution came after the stock market. That is not a coincidence.



 

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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Thu Aug 17, 2017 4:55 am

Never thought of it that way, but that seems correct.

 

___________
“Be clever, Ariadne! ...
You have little ears; you have my ears:
Put a clever word in them! —
Must one not first hate oneself, in order to love oneself? ...
I am your labyrinth ...”.  -N

“Cause I’m just a man... flesh and venom.” -Cowboy Troy
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PostSubject: Re: The civilizing and tempering power of capitalism    Thu Aug 17, 2017 12:16 pm

I hadn't thought of that before I started studying the field either.

Its brutally fascinating.

I can explain a lot of stuff now, but only in ways that would apply directly to peoples macro-money making powers.
Wed not only have guests from Virginia, Paris, Moscow and Beijing but from New York Frankfurt and London -
which would get nasty.

 

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