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 Natural World Ashes

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:43 pm

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Modern Poetry
I tend to find modern poetry disgusting, unoriginal, and empty. And not, well, poetry at all. But there are some rare exceptions, in whose art lyric and form are elevated to something more than mere prose, where meaning glides along the surfaces of the mind, "grooves in an aesthetic" to speak with someone I once knew.

Here is a rare example of good modern poetry. I encourage you to post other examples as you find them, and also to post examples of bad/typical modern poetry.


---

Evolution



Loss and ruin grind under our feet
like spilled salt, bad luck sticking
to our soles. And joy
streaks across the sky, a star
burning out. Who knows
what will save us?

A man yanks the hair
of a woman he once covered with kisses.
Each kiss was a blossom and he thought
he was making his own garden.
All over the world there is failure.

Our species can enter the human
body with a laser, repair the shape
of a cornea to sharpen all it sees,
or crack the ribs and lift the heart
from its home, plant it again.
This exquisite intelligence—a brain
firing one hundred billion neurons—
is still bashing its own skull with big rocks.

Everywhere, staggering
beauty, intricate and connected.
Rivers and streams flow under our skin.
We can see them through translucent cells.
And inside the modest and flamboyant organs of plants
a vegetal sex is taking place.
If you lie still in a soundproof room
you can hear the high tone
of your nervous system and the low
tone of your blood.
In caves the thinnest strands of stalactite extend
a centimeter in a hundred years, a single drop
of water hanging from each tip, returning
its burden of mineral to stone.
What kind of patience can we learn?

Goats chew the brilliantly
long green grass. Wind carries rain
across fields in dark transparencies.
The water sings in the gutters, the earliest song on earth.
Lovers keep breaking each other open
like soft fruit, trying to bury their souls
in each other's flesh.
As termites undo the material world,
taking apart the day, the universe
is expanding, so precisely held
in the web of tension, we can sleep
at the edge of an ocean.

O primitive brain, perhaps it's you
we should pray to, heaping our altars
with spliced DNA and the score to Bach's
Magnificat, Gandhi's dhoti, one hair
from Mother Teresa, and a cup of clean water.
We could bow through the long night,
prostrate, breathing in
and breathing out. Somewhere

in a barren desert, sand
blowing, burying the tents, grit
biting into skin, someone cradles
the skull of a being born
seven million years ago.


--Ellen Bass
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 06:59 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 07:00 AM by pezer.) Post: #2
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RE: Modern Poetry
Beautiful. It suffered with the mention of Teresa, but survived.

All of Robert Frost. I like this one a lot.

Desert Places

Snow falling and night falling fast, oh, fast
In a field I looked into going past,
And the ground almost covered smooth in snow,
But a few weeds and stubble showing last.

The woods around it have it - it is theirs.
All animals are smothered in their lairs.
I am too absent-spirited to count;
The loneliness includes me unawares.

And lonely as it is, that loneliness
Will be more lonely ere it will be less -
A blanker whiteness of benighted snow
WIth no expression, nothing to express.

They cannot scare me with their empty spaces
Between stars - on stars where no human race is.
I have it in me so much nearer home
To scare myself with my own desert places.

Robert Frost
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-10-2013, 05:11 AM (This post was last modified: 06-10-2013 05:12 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #3
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RE: Modern Poetry
Dream Song 14

Life, friends, is boring. We must not say so.
After all, the sky flashes, the great sea yearns,
we ourselves flash and yearn,
and moreover my mother told me as a boy
(repeatingly) "Ever to confess you're bored
means you have no

Inner Resources." I conclude now I have no
inner resources, because I am heavy bored.
Peoples bore me,
literature bores me, especially great literature,
Henry bores me, with his plights & gripes
as bad as Achilles,

who loves people and valiant art, which bores me.
And the tranquil hills, & gin, look like a drag
and somehow a dog
has taken itself & its tail considerably away
into the mountains or sea or sky, leaving
behind: me, wag.

--John Berryman
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-18-2013, 03:53 PM Unread post Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Modern Poetry
Retreating Wind


When I made you, I loved you.
Now I pity you.

I gave you all you needed:
bed of earth, blanket of blue air--

As I get further away from you
I see you more clearly.
Your souls should have been immense by now,
not what they are,
small talking things--

I gave you every gift,
blue of the spring morning,
time you didn't know how to use--
you wanted more, the one gift
reserved for another creation.

Whatever you hoped,
you will not find yourselves in the garden,
among the growing plants.
Your lives are not circular like theirs:

your lives are the bird's flight
which begins and ends in stillness--
which begins and ends, in form echoing
this arc from the white birch
to the apple tree.


Louise Gluck
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-18-2013, 05:34 PM Unread post Post: #5
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RE: Modern Poetry
Excellent



 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:44 pm

='ChainOfBeing' pid='414' dateline='1356197379'

Quote :
“I hold that the self is consciously active when it is interactive, and its interactivity is constituted in a dialectic of mutual negation and affirmation of self and other. Self and other, subject and object, are constituted in the individual acts of existential consciousness. These acts are self-originating and yet co-originating, too, as forms of dynamic, reciprocal expression. It is in this structure of biconditional, interexpressive, mutual revealment of self and other that an individual act is an individual act.”

...“[The biological world] exhibits this principle of self-expression; it reflects itself within itself. I articulate this difference [between the biological and the physical worlds] by defining the biological world as a self-transforming matrix moving from the formed to the forming, through the dynamic transactions of organism and environment. The organic realm constitutes a world that exists and moves through itself in this way. It is a process of infinite transformation through the dynamic equilibrium of organism and environment—that is, contains its own self-negation and self-affirmation within itself. This self-vectorial process constitutes the direction of time . . . The biological world thus has the form of a contradictory identity, possessing its own organic centers within itself and infinitely determining itself in and through these centers.”

Kitaro divorces the notions of space and time from each other, space being the dimension of immanence and extensivitiy, time being the dimension of transcendence and intensivitiy. Space being the realm of simultaneous existence, time being the realm of successive existence. The "physical" world is essentially the spatial world, while the biological world is the temporal world. Time is reversible in the physical world, while time is irreversible in the living, biological world.


The “absolute contradictory” identity of the self involves the contradiction between “the many and the one”. The self, attempting to reconcile its biological element with its physical element (its world and socio-history) is thrown into the contradiction between the many (the physical world of reversible time and distinct entities existing in space) and the one (the biological world of irreversible time and unique self-expressing entities existing in time). Human acts express themselves, the biological self-identity from which they arose, but they also express the world, and therefore through human consciousness the world exhibits “both a spatial and a temporal character”... “As an order of simultaneous existence it appears as a form of self-negation, and yet it is infinitely occurring in its temporality. Affirming itself in its temporality, it transcends its own spatial character by being a creative transformation.” The temporal unity of the biological being across time, from the perishing of one spatial moment to the next, gives this living being its creative-transformative character; even as it is always perishing, it is also always being reborn. And it is out of these "biological centers" vectoring together through time which the conscious self emerges as the self-expression of the operations of these centers and by their continuity in the world.



This leads into a perspective that is at basic not unlike Parodites’ daemonic consciousness:

Quote :

“In human consciousness the world is bottomlessly self-determining and creative, a transformational process which has the form of the contradictory identity of space and time. I refer to this self-forming, creative world as the self-determination of the absolute present. I hold that it is only in this dynamic form of contradictory identity that we can truly conceive something that moves by itself and is self-conscious.”

And as he continues, we can see how this also adopts and moves into a perspective along the lines of what value ontology proposes:

Quote :

“The dynamic reciprocity of objective and subjective dimensions comprising the act of humanly conscious expression is monadological in this existential sense. It is unintelligible as the mere action and reaction of physical objects (that is, grammatical subjects in the framework of theoretical judgment). It must be the expression of a self-determining and self-conscious act that simultaneously reflects the world as a unique perspective of the world. When I say that the conscious active individual exists in a structure of dynamic expression, I mean precisely this. That I am consciously active means that I determine myself by expressing the world in myself. I am an expressive monad of the world. I transform the world into my own subjectivity. The world that, in its objectivity, opposes me is transformed and grasped symbolically in the forms of my own subjectivity.”

We see how he arrives at what we have called self-valuing. He also situates this self-valuing within the larger “objective” world that in its physical dimension (its spatiality) both opposes and also conditions the valuing self. From the vantage of the world itself, human-like consciousness’ are created in order to give the world greater expression and depth, to (re-)interpret the world constantly in terms of a dimension which is foreign to the physical world itself, the dimension of the organic, of irreversible, unique and absolute time. The active consciousness expresses the world through itself while it is expressing itself through itself; the contradiction of the one and the many, subject and objects. Both the world and the self-consciousness take on a contradictory character: the world takes on the character of temporality, which is otherwise entirely foreign to it, while the self-consciousness takes on the form of spatiality, of simultaneous physical existence, which is foreign to the temporal condition of the self.



Kitaro grounds religious experience in the ideation of God, God being the principle by which these two contradictions can meet each other and thus may enter into productive relation. Human experience of the eternal is grounded in our understanding of death, of the inevitability of the total oblivion of form, which of course includes us, and in this insight the experience of eternal life is also born at the same moment as this is just the intimate and endless novelty of understanding and creativity, which has been named, among other things, philosophy.


Against Kant’s transcendental forms of the understanding, Kitaro maintains that “content without form is blind, form without content is empty” and he locates here a principle of conscious growth and over-growing progression toward higher forms and orders of experience. He grounds this, quite simply, in thinking. The “thinking subject” arises as a representation of the essential contradiction of the self, as that which “cannot become an object of itself”, the operation is indelibly linguistic, the production of semantics and grammar. The term "grammatical subject" is a tautology. The self makes objects of its experiences but it cannot make object of itself, it cannot self-grasp and self-identify because its objectification and identification are situated in a reciprocal biconditional relation that can never become resolved or grounded, but remain always an irresolute chaos. This irreconcilability, this juxtaposing into contrast of incommensurate elements of conscious experience, this is what we experience as "thinking". Kitaro's absolute time of the self-determining act is also an absolutely divided moment, a space which cannot be entirely transferred into the dimension of temporality, and a time which cannot entirely be translated into the dimension of spatiality. Kitaro therefore defines the thinking subject in the negative definition as that part of the active consciousness which is unable to be made object of by our (objectifying-semantic) consciousness itself.

And yet, despite this insight, this purely negative definition does not suffice for Kitaro, and he wishes to proceed with a positive designation, wherein he finds a principle of conscious expansion:

Quote :
“We can say that the self exists as the point where that which cannot become an object in one dimension becomes an object in another dimension—perhaps some higher dimension”.

This is indeed profound. Although he does not seem to draw the furthest implications from this, he locates a principle by which the self, trapped within its own impossibility for self-objectification and self-knowledge, is thrown at the junctures of this subjective interruption into alternate dimensions, from space to time, from time to space. From one purview within conscious expression to another, as the forms of this expression shift from one moment to the next. Where the conscious self meets an impassable wall it does not halt, some aspect of its experience always re-configures and escapes toward a new dimension of expression, is thrust into itself again endlessly as into a new avenue of its own self-expression. The negative condition of the self, its irreconcilable contradiction is also therefore understood to be also the condition of this progressive expansion of consciousness, its continual transformation into what which it presently is not. Transpositional logic is what Kitaro calls the logic of this contradictory consciousness existing as time within space, as space across time; objects within a subject, a subject as objects; and the thinking self which lies at the junction between the need for objectification and the threshold of impossibility of self-objectification. And of all this takes place within the temporal field of meaning of human world-history which gives rise to the possible forms in which our conscious acts ultimately take shape. The biological is always partially physical-spatial, but more so it is always noetic, teleological and dynamically reciprocal with its objects, cast outside of time... Kitaro again: "Self-conscious being pertains to noetic self-determination. Our conscious being has meaning in this framework. Each conscious act appears as a self-contradictory center of the noetic field of predicates. Reflection is nothing other than the self-reflection of the noetic field within itself. Our conscious acts are grounded in such a standpoint. That is the basis on which we are self-conscious and moral."

The wider "noetic field" being that out of which individual organic self-determining centers rise and take shape, are colored with character and meaning. The irreconcilability of this self-determining active consciousness takes place within a wider noetic-teleological stage of human world-historical meaning, and is in fact, according to Kitaro, nothing but a particular manifestation of this field at a given point within it:

Quote :

"It is in the historical world-time of the absolute present that the monads form the individual expressions of the world. They are both self-originating and co-originating in the matrix of the absolute present. Our own activities as microcosms of the world may be thought to constitute unique events in world-time while simultaneously representing the Ideas as the world's self-negation (that is, self-expression) in world-space. Our activities thereby acquire universality and value. Conversely, the Ideas, as the world's own expressions and values, entail a negation of negation: they are affirmative, actual, self-forming, and at the very least always have moral significance. That is why our activities in the historical world are always, and in various senses, both ideal and actual. The self-conscious world of each individual human self is a self-determining monadic world; but as such, each self is a self-expression of the historical world. Therefore each self-conscious world is a momentary vector of historical world-space, which mediates its own objective self-determination within itself, and infinitely determines itself through its own process of self-expression."

Kitaro succeeds as developing a rational understanding of the basic structure of consciousness and of the structure of this consciousness' mutually-conditioning relations to the world, both to the physical world of objects as well as to the human history-world of ideas, values and meaning.


And finally, further to the above:

"All life arises from the fact that it transforms itself by containing its own self-expression within itself. It is first biological and instinctive in a spatially-predominant way—that is, it possesses itself as a form of self-negation. It becomes historical life as it becomes concrete in a temporal dimension—as a self-affirming form within a transforming matrix. In historical life there is always this dialectic of affirmative and negative: the former is the material world, the latter the world of consciousness, in the transpositional structure of the contradictory identity of matter and form . . . I articulate the world of consciousness, which phenomenology defines in terms of intentionality, as the self-determination of the temporal dimension of the world, having this transformative structure of the identity of contradiction. Life-structures that contain the perspectives of the world within themselves, as structures of the world's own expression, may be regarded as instinctual in the predominantly spatial sense, but as conscious acts in their temporal character. Again, they are self-conscious structures in that they are co-originating expressions of the world . . . Reason itself is nothing other than a self-determination of the temporal dimension that always has the character of being a predicate that cannot be subject. We are rational in the self-determining predicate, or universal. Reason functions intentionally, as something temporally, consciously, and immanently enfolding the grammatical subject—that is, the object—and as having its own self-immanent telos."


 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:46 pm

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Shadows of an active ethics.
Life is always wanting only itself, and finding itself it must cultivate some external agency by which to abandon itself, to again lose sight of itself that it may stimulate continuously its own striving nature in the flesh of some excess. The world is made so that we may never truly rest, and even to search for truth culminates in a seeking into falsity just as all desiring after a fictive experience is only an inarticulate and misplaced desire for truth.


Love is the unity of instinct with a sentimental heart, which may almost entirely exclude the understanding. That we love is the movement toward completion of the axis of the heart’s responsiveness, that point at which feeling subtends with the body under the wider arc of rational reflection, and the enlivening of that point of intersection with a vital energy and passion such as excites the body primarily into activity. Those relations characteristic of a quality of personality are subsumed within relations of the heart, just as those of the heart become reconstituted and find their point of adequate reflection in moments of understanding, of abstract intellect. That which love lacks is made up in the mind just as what is lacking of reason acts as so much fuel and a stimulus toward the unity of the body unconscious within the centralizing locus of the heart’s expression, which movement acts to usurp reason and to place the rational object carefully within the reflective milieu of so many confluent gatherings of sensate affection. What man lacks is yet a technique for casting the contents of his experience into the depth of their unifying reconciliation within each other, that a more disparate and agitating feeling might emerge as the first signs of a new conscious order of contemplation, compared to which our habitual thinking and feeling is but a relaying wind, too proud to realize a greater capriciousness and too vain to possess also the solitude for a moment of more truthful experience.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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01-26-2013, 10:08 PM Post: #2
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RE: Shadows of an active ethics.
Indeed, as man is a furnace, he must still learn to cast himself into this furnace. As man contains an abyss between his mind and heart, he must still navigate this abyss and make it his own. To lose oneself in oneself - I believe that depression is often no more than this, the beginnings of a path that has the power to deepen the soul. This prospect of depth is itself already terrifying and unwanted. Such a path is called the dark night of the soul, and when one is thrown onto it by the simple inadequacy of the only half conscious human state to attain the values the organism (health) wants to reach for, there is no guarantee of ever finding the path as a path. Part of the task of a philosophy of the future is to offer a lantern on this path, for the fallen one to recognize it as a path. What is philosophy but a path? This is why I have been so adamant on creating beacons, signals, symbols - not of what we aim for, but of what we have done, and what those who are still wandering in the dark of the abyss may discover in themselves.
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01-29-2013, 05:07 PM Post: #3
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RE: Shadows of an active ethics.
To accept chaos as a part of us in lieu of an external threat, that is to accept the inevitable limits of our truths with a smile. We dance, and chaos is part of the dance, and within that we discern.

Discerning is an art, and it is involved in warfare. The dark night is not of the philosopher but of the world, and the philosopher often prefers darkness to certain lights. The fearlessness of it adds to his strength and maintains his boldness, as well as his discernment for good light. In any case, darkness is not the same as emptiness; there is a reason we use light.

Ethics, after all, active or otherwise, is itself a shadow.




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The real enemy
The real enemy is chaos. There is no other enemy.

Every problem is a manifestation and a particular mode of chaos. To perceive and understand the chaos within one's problem is to see into the nature of that difficulty, and so become free (able) to will something else, something counter. We are slaves to that which we do not think we can control, or to that which we are too afraid to reconstitute into some new order for fear that we might in so doing change the nature of what we value into something alien to us, that we would lose this value.

Sometimes this fear is justified, sometimes it is not. Knowing the difference is the essence of true morality, which is yet scarcely born unto human wisdom. At best, we cultivate some moral intuition, namely an ability to withdraw ourselves instinctively at the precipice of this fearful moment. Such a mode however noble leads to a passive morality even where our moral sense manifests itself in activity. So end tragically all things.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-08-2013, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2013 02:08 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: The real enemy
I refer to "the enemy" as "Entropy", the son of Chaos, but it is the same difference.
Anentropy is the goal.
The key is to stop worshiping the enemy as unbeatable.
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03-08-2013, 02:49 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: The real enemy
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?
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03-08-2013, 11:54 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 12:03 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #4
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RE: The real enemy
(03-08-2013 02:07 PM)JSS Wrote:
I refer to "the enemy" as "Entropy", the son of Chaos, but it is the same difference.
Anentropy is the goal.
The key is to stop worshiping the enemy as unbeatable.

Indeed. To worship the enemy means to value oneself in terms of the enemy (to hold the emeny as a standard for the real) - which means to value oneself negatively, as weakness. There is no way up from that position.
(03-08-2013 02:49 PM)pezer Wrote:
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?

It emerges naturally once the obstacle is removed, once the chaos is perceived for what it is in terms of the self. It is, as is every act, an extension of the continuing self-valuing, the appropriating of the world in terms of the subjective consistency.

Chaos can be called a-subjective, inconsistency - being not-in-terms.
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03-09-2013, 01:03 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 01:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #5
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RE: The real enemy
(03-08-2013 02:49 PM)pezer Wrote:
Where does the "else" come from? the counter?

I believe this comes from what has been called human freedom or free will, namely the degree of our ability to act without regard to something that would otherwise have compelled our activity by some force or necessity. To (re)condition one necessity in terms of a different, "higher" or more subtle/organic-teleological necessity is the real meaning of freedom/free will. Freedom and determinacy are the same thing.

So when we cultivate an accumulated memory able to act as that against which we now express our own subjective self-valuing activity, producing counter-forces and a continuous sense of (memory) that which is resisted/reincorporated, we gain some measure of freedom. Freedom is a measure of strength. And of course the nature of this strength is in a resistance to chaos, meaning an understanding of chaotic tendency and subsequently an ability to generate and impress a less-chaotic alternative.

What also makes this hard is that to overpower chaos does not defeat or remove it, but makes some new use of it; the chaotic tendency is still present, systemically or structurally as a potentiality. But we can learn to see destructive chaos as a worthy enemy in the sense that without it there could be no impulse or incentive to form an ordering against it. Activity is reaction, freedom is resistance, the necessity of chaos is the necessity for order.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-09-2013, 03:02 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:02 AM by pezer.) Post: #6
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RE: The real enemy
OK, but if there is nothing but chaos and the resistance to it...
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03-09-2013, 03:04 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:04 AM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: The real enemy
Make the right kind of friends.
..those that help.
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03-09-2013, 03:12 AM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: The real enemy
No, I think I agree with the whole thesis. Chaos is like mistakes: absolutely necessary, often painful, sometimes great. In any case, we dance with it (and we must).
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03-09-2013, 03:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:28 AM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: The real enemy
So be it and where it takes you.
Sleep with the enemy and the enemy is always with you.
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03-09-2013, 03:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013 03:47 AM by pezer.) Post: #10
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RE: The real enemy




Lol. Seriously though, if you're not fighting your enemies: who is?




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Split
Politics does not split man against man so much as it splits man inwardly, against himself. Political (or religious/ideological) beliefs are largely irrelevant to the non-philosopher, since the belief serves only as the justice for the feeling. It is the feeling which counts, and which is manipulated by politic.

The splitting into two 'halves', largely perfectly opposed to one another, we see this phenomenon everywhere in nature, because it is the essential feature of all things that they would divide inwardly to cast into some higher order of expression a bifurcated nature of action, the growth of something "new", the functionalization of "the old".

Each side retains its truth and its true relation to its opposite/s. This is typically "repressed" (buried) by the splitting-nature itself, by the Act. It is action which continuously suppresses the reality of things, whose more true expression might begin to move subtly in the waters of experience were we to take a step back and clear a path for it, namely to suppress out acting for even a moment, to create a space. It is from within voids that the implicit must express itself, in so far as the implicit is as its term suggests, integrated into a seeming homogeneity, a "necessity".


...Men are made to despise themselves because they are to despise other men, for right or wrong, and feeling is intersected and cut in two at the heart of immediate experience; a truthful nature is broken and made to war against itself, whose justification is the outward expressions of so many beliefs and "pragmatisms" in the world. (And we forget this is the world that we have made).
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-11-2013, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 07:04 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: Split
I recognize much in this. And the only politics that justify the nature of man to himself must be what we now only know as art. What we (man) in fact have known in those mighty periods on which all our culture is based - the Greeks (I am thinking Historyboy deserves much involvement) and to a lesser degree that Renaissance. China has known such politics as well. Wherever there is history, there has been art as politics. Whenever mediocre artists were at work with such an aim, they have caused historic, monumental, "epic" failures.

We are helpless if we do not rise to the 'heat' required for synthesis - ethics born of sublime aesthetics, of rapture caught in form. But we are doomed if the parts come to the melting point and are not prepared to be synthesized.

I suppose that all politicians who rise to power are attempts at making their quest to power into an artwork - their self-glorification in the name of the aesthetics of a race, a people. It suggests that we must find the aesthetics of our "human race" - if we are to advance beyond the schizofrenic battle against our neighbor, our counterpart. Naturally this synthesis means a nature beyond the man of the present hour, the lukewarm soup of half dissolved yet unpleasantly conflicting ingredients.

Paradoxically, to create a fitting image of "mankind" literally to literally create the Übermensch.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:46 pm

How healthful is your reality?
Every world is made, each human creates what is possible for him, and what is possible will give his ranges of realities. Despite the great accumulation of past influences we are always a "blank state" in so far as we write our own possibilities. This is usually passive, but may become active in the ways in which our instincts attune to our attributions of what we perceive as risks and possibilities. It is based within information, but based upon the relationships between instinctively governed feelings and this information. A mature heart will always carry one to the threshold no matter what information or quality of possibility are available.

What we think cannot come to be is what we call to, by visualizing it, anticipating is defense and a bringing-forth. So far defense against the unwanted aspect has been the merely passive method for our constructing realities. Desire has two sides, but one result.
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03-19-2013, 12:23 PM (This post was last modified: 03-19-2013 12:27 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
(03-19-2013 03:43 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
What we think cannot come to be is what we call to, by visualizing it, anticipating is defense and a bringing-forth. So far defense against the unwanted aspect has been the merely passive method for our constructing realities. Desire has two sides, but one result.

Brilliant. This explains why living on the edge requires a heavy denial, - as if the denial is the positive stament (I am thinking of Jim Morrison, or Nietzsche - James Dean, Jack Kerouac - Charlie Sheen even in the more vulgar sense) and the positive being is the one that denies. This being creates momentum by its conscious effort to conjure an anti-self, a 'world', which stimulates to action and identity.

What it denies is separating heaven and earth, a horizon drawn as a line in the sand.

Every act is such a horizon, an 'underworld' is created out of it as well as a 'heaven' - collaterality versus telos... the greatest acts perform teleologically within the unintended disruption they cause - in the least intended forms, intention finds its freedom and is able to become real to the world, "power" is awesome to itself, 'self-evident' but not immutably real. There is a path that leads away from it, the path of restriction in trust.

Mistrust is necessary for growth - uncertainty, - trust in danger, readiness to manipulate at the cost of a foreign self-valuing. All great movements are 'racist' - typist - and then they fall into service of a sustenance providing structure and begin to corrupt.

Every great religion is an attempt to keep the structure out of the picture and to keep moving, being-movement. Structure is the circumference of expediency, and expediency is determined exclusively in terms of value and perspective.

Value-structures, the plasma of the real, valency as "God", manifesting in art, mind altering drugs, non-teleological sex - "irrational behavior" - - meaning. A rational argument can mean something, but it can not be meant in the way a subjective statement can. It is always "This is the case if you think about it" instead of "Now this is happening". Between these meanings weaponry is created.

What do men battle when they war? This egde that life is requires of life that it pits itself against itself. In man life reaches the pinnacle of diversity and allows itself to cultivate itself, from pure diversity into a duality - good and evil, life and death, ethics and barbarism. Life uses man to sharpen itself. Man can not understand what he is being used for, except if he stands as life on the precipice and directs the conflict. All art is attempt to this, Napoleon is more overt expression, so also is the militaristic Jihad, and radical Christianity. Judaism attempts not to be life at the edge, but to surf this edge, the be above the tendency of life to pit itself against itself. The religion offers the tree of life, the means to overcome the duality (the tree of knowledge of good and evil) by recognizing its non-dual construction.
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03-20-2013, 02:10 AM (This post was last modified: 03-20-2013 02:16 AM by pezer.) Post: #3
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
Considering the long while man has actually already been around for, we may even consider that the valuation of man as the pinnacle, the edge, the avant-garde of the universe was a manly creation itself, perhaps in that sense that only philosophers understand as creation, an evolutionary creation from within; the fate that is may have been an event that is.

We are the pinnacle because we are the pinnacle.
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03-20-2013, 07:58 AM Post: #4
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RE: How healthful is your reality?
Welcome to the lodge.




 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:48 pm

Black Mirror
A short mini-series from a UK film-maker.

It is rare to see such raw objectivity, such a direct and unmitigated look at ourselves...

Episode 1
https://www.dropbox.com/s/gxfjxp9q6d42ev...-bia.mkv?m

Episode 2
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xf7q0jqmig8nqt...-tla.mkv?m

Episode 3
https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdi4a9uvww48x8...-tla.mkv?m


If you can't get these to play, download Media Player Classic Home Cinema Edition
and they should work, http://mpc-hc.org.

(I don't know how long these episodes will be up hosted on this site, BTW).
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-11-2013, 03:35 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 04:05 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: Black Mirror
Seems like typical social engineering psycho-filmage to me.
The "raw objectivity" aspect is to open your will to the embedded suggestions.
They usually use violence, sex, anything heart wrenching or terrifying in order to open the door.
But anything that strongly gets your attention works.

It is an example of your values being set by others without your knowledge.
It has been going on under your nose for the last 35 years or so.

1) Pathetic white male who can't protect his women.
2) Black male fucks his women
3) Futile life of the white man
and if they run more...
4) Angry superwoman frees herself from oppression of the white men
5) Gay white men.

Sometimes they'll throw in a gratuitous "suicide is a valid option for white men".
The underlying point being to genocidally exterminate the white race over time.
It's straight out of Deuteronomy.
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03-11-2013, 11:35 PM Post: #3
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RE: Black Mirror
Um...
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-12-2013, 08:19 PM Post: #4
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RE: Black Mirror
But the production quality is great.
Those guys have a whole lot of money.
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03-13-2013, 09:05 AM Post: #5
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-11-2013 03:35 PM)JSS Wrote:
Seems like typical social engineering psycho-filmage to me.
The "raw objectivity" aspect is to open your will to the embedded suggestions.
They usually use violence, sex, anything heart wrenching or terrifying in order to open the door.
But anything that strongly gets your attention works.

It is an example of your values being set by others without your knowledge.
It has been going on under your nose for the last 35 years or so.

1) Pathetic white male who can't protect his women.
2) Black male fucks his women
3) Futile life of the white man
and if they run more...
4) Angry superwoman frees herself from oppression of the white men
5) Gay white men.

Sometimes they'll throw in a gratuitous "suicide is a valid option for white men".
The underlying point being to genocidally exterminate the white race over time.
It's straight out of Deuteronomy.

The Androgyny Project.

There are, though, sometimes those movies starring Liam Niason where it's just a white dude being awesome against all odds. But yeah, it's more than just exterminating the white race; it's just that they are first. They want to extinguish the race itself, including the sexes. Wells knew this way back when.
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03-13-2013, 05:37 PM Post: #6
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RE: Black Mirror
Where is the rest? There is only the first part for each episode.
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03-13-2013, 05:38 PM Post: #7
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RE: Black Mirror
Oh, this is from Charlie Brooker. Interesting.
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03-13-2013, 08:34 PM Post: #8
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RE: Black Mirror
Self-destructive pessimism masquerading as 'a cold hard look at ourselves' is Brooker's speciality. He's a miserable, horrible man. And I know someone who went out with him for a bit before he married that dippy Asian children's TV presenter, so I know he's actually like this.
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03-13-2013, 09:38 PM (This post was last modified: 03-13-2013 09:44 PM by Q.) Post: #9
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RE: Black Mirror
I find these films powerful, though. I should have watched them first before commenting on the androgyny stuff cause I don't see it here beyond just the ambient level it exist in society. Definitely some transhumanist imagery. As for Booker,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH96S4rBZbI

He kind of reminds me of this guy. Not so much in terms of character, but just being in that media position to be flirting with dangerous ideas. I forget what it was in V. In this case it is the PM fucking a pig.

Also, the only way I could watch these videos was by torrenting them.
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03-13-2013, 11:56 PM Post: #10
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RE: Black Mirror
I don't know why the videos here cut out part way through. I couldn't find them anywhere else online.

As for " pessimism" I see these videos as instead exposing latent or implicit aspects of our daily lives, and of society. The "fears" of the material presented reflect us and how we ourselves are reflected by this imagery. It isn't dystopian so much as a dream-like evocation, largely isolated imagery that should appear alien in how differently things are in the dream compared to our 'normal' lives, but really does not. Basically features of each of these stories are already present in our lives today, the film maker merely reflects on this by drawing them out to "extremes".

I don't know anything about the film maker himself, but it seems at least unfair or perhaps irrelevant to form comments about his work from within a context of criticizing the man's supposed personal life and affairs. Artists are often difficult people to get along with and can leave a sour impression on others, in person. This says little or nothing about their work, however.




RE: Black Mirror
You might not believe it, but my friend from a film school I dropped out of oh, a year or more ago had been discussing making a video of... Jean-Charest, the then Prime Minister of Quebec, fucking a sheep.

It was a trip to see how these guys did it, the idea is obviously fantastic for anyone with a sense of humor and healthy hate for politicians. Shitty soap-opery angles are unavoidable on fiction TV of that scale if you're not a Stanley Kubrick, but the set up was great, somehow a slight bit disappointing until the coup-de-gras, when all is justified and the work proves itself as even evil, for having stolen that idea from a guy who might actually have done it.

Started watching part 2, but was too high for that level of bad trip. The guy is honest and meticulous, there is no doubt about that.
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03-14-2013, 04:07 AM Post: #12
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-13-2013 11:56 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
I don't know anything about the film maker himself, but it seems at least unfair or perhaps irrelevant to form comments about his work from within a context of criticizing the man's supposed personal life and affairs. Artists are often difficult people to get along with and can leave a sour impression on others, in person. This says little or nothing about their work, however.

I mean he is a pessimist in his work, as well as in his personal life. I've followed this guy's stuff for years, I used to quite enjoy his weekly TV previews in the Guardian and I admit there is a lot in the series he did with Chris Morris 'Nathan Barley' that I liked and thought was very clever and well observed. He also wrote some sketches for a show that 'took a sideways look at relationships' in which all the men are assholes and all the women were crazy. Funny, but it's the subtext of pure misanthropy flowing from this man that makes it hard for me to watch or read his stuff anymore.

Beyond that I don't really have anything to contribute to this thread so I'll leave it at that.
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03-14-2013, 07:42 AM Post: #13
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RE: Black Mirror
These films have me fairly impressed. The little artistic nuances are too many to even list. I think the one with the black guy is my favorite but the pig fucking one, not even being British, really got to me.
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03-15-2013, 09:18 AM Post: #14
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RE: Black Mirror
So there is some sort of top level global ban on these videos. I made a small clip of one of them and clearly stated it was made in accordance with Fair Use, and it was banned almost instantly. I didn't even link it to anywhere. It had like 1 view.

Someone - I would imagine the Queen, English government, etc - seriously does not want these videos being watched.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 09:18 AM Post: #15
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 09:18 AM)Q Wrote:
So there is some sort of top level global ban on these videos. I made a small clip of one of them and clearly stated it was made in accordance with Fair Use, and it was banned almost instantly. I didn't even link it to anywhere. It had like 1 view.

Someone - I would imagine the Queen, English government, etc - seriously does not want these videos being watched.

The only way I could even watch them in the first place was to torrent them. They're banned on every site, everywhere.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 09:21 AM Post: #16
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RE: Black Mirror
They all get really, really good after the parts they cut off in the OP.

You guys should try and watch them.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 12:12 PM Post: #17
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RE: Black Mirror
cut off where now?
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03-15-2013, 12:19 PM Post: #18
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RE: Black Mirror
There are 4 parts to each video. The OP only shows the first 1-2 parts. They get really good. All of them.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 12:25 PM Post: #19
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RE: Black Mirror
Oh... So the pig fucking one goes on? Man... It's gonna take me like 2 weeks to find the emotional space to watch these bad boys.
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03-15-2013, 12:53 PM Post: #20
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RE: Black Mirror
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.




RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 12:25 PM)pezer Wrote:
Oh... So the pig fucking one goes on? Man... It's gonna take me like 2 weeks to find the emotional space to watch these bad boys.

I'm still reeling kind of.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 01:51 PM Post: #22
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-15-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #23
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RE: Black Mirror
The second one goes so far beyond the others for me. I have watched it a bunch of times now. It's completely self-contained. Brilliant.
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03-15-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #24
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RE: Black Mirror
You guys need to watch these things in their entirety. I can give you the torrent links if you cannot find them.
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03-15-2013, 11:22 PM Post: #25
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RE: Black Mirror
Apparently with the links I posted in the OP you need to click on Download to see the entire clip, if you just watch it from the site it will cut off part way through.

I'll post links to season 2 soon.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-21-2013, 09:25 AM Post: #26
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RE: Black Mirror
.[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='1727' dateline='1363821936']
.





[size=large]
Tell me again...what's so great about white people?[/size]





...........................................






.
[/quote]


BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-15-2013 01:51 PM)Q Wrote:
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.

It's all in your head, the show is widely available for download:
http://www.filestube.com/query.html?q=bl...select=All

There's no ban, this isn't remotely controversial stuff. Chris Morris was doing this kind of thing with Jam about a decade ago...
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03-21-2013, 10:16 PM Post: #28
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RE: Black Mirror
Hmm. Well then.
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03-21-2013, 10:33 PM Post: #29
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RE: Black Mirror
But the black vans outside watching me, maaaan. This thing goes all the way to the top!
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03-22-2013, 12:27 AM Post: #30
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RE: Black Mirror
Don't get me wrong, the black vans outside may well be watching you, and may well be under orders from 'the top'. I'm just saying there's no attempt to ban this TV show. It being comparatively harder to find than many TV shows is probably due to it not having that big an audience.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:50 pm

RE: Black Mirror
Banning has become a strange word in the anglo world. I'm definitely quite ready to believe that the broadcasters simply censored some parts, for example. True censorship can't be direct or else it would eventually be acknowledged by some dope, no?
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03-22-2013, 04:39 AM Post: #32
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RE: Black Mirror
In this country censorship is a very informal, if quite careful, process. There's nothing in the broadcast version that will make anyone who is that powerful that unhappy. I appreciate that things work differently in other countries, but here it seems they give a relatively free license to media producers as long as they stay within certain boundaries, or perhaps more specifically as long as you adopt the right tone towards your material. If you say it in a cynical way that offers the public no options then you can say pretty much whatever you like.
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03-22-2013, 04:44 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2013 04:45 AM by pezer.) Post: #33
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RE: Black Mirror
I mean more the word than the country. Y'all sometimes say banned when the government had nothing to do with it. Maybe It's an American thing.

There are certain cynical tones you can take in public which try to pass off as but certainly don't allow you to say whatever you want; there is an allocated space in ideology for permitted rule breaking.
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03-22-2013, 03:49 PM Post: #34
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Perhaps I haven't been exposed to the crazy stuff, but the pig fucking one, for me, was crazy. I was thinking about it for a long time. It's not so much 'Oh, that was shocking, a guy fucking a pig.'

It was something else.

Likewise, the way the memory implant one makes you look at the future is fucking horrifying. That is precisely where we are going.

Where will you draw the line? And then what happens? It's the subtle stuff that gets to me. I kinda look Booker. He knows what he is. It's not some saint, but these videos are such that they are powerful. I think, at least.

Tell me some of the videos you have found truly shocking. Dramas, that is. I'm sure you've seen some crazy spy torture or the like. Or maybe not. I shouldn't presume that.

(03-21-2013 07:42 PM)BigTom Wrote:
(03-15-2013 01:51 PM)Q Wrote:
(03-15-2013 12:53 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Are you sure there is some kind of ban on these? Weren't they aired on TV in the UK, and they must be available on DVD too...?

There is a ban outside of the UK I mean.

It's all in your head, the show is widely available for download:
http://www.filestube.com/query.html?q=bl...select=All

There's no ban, this isn't remotely controversial stuff. Chris Morris was doing this kind of thing with Jam about a decade ago...
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03-22-2013, 03:49 PM Post: #35
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RE: Black Mirror
Season 2 tonight.
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03-22-2013, 03:52 PM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Well, have you checked out Salo yet?
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03-22-2013, 03:58 PM Post: #37
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Or, if you want to know why Venezuela is scary in a really fun story, in a filming style which is very true to life, definitely watch Secuestro Express

Fuck your hard drive space, you can erase it after. You can tell it's a quality movie because none of the actors are actually Venezuelan except the gangsters, who aren't strictly speaking actors. Real professional piece. It'd make Riddley Scott smile.
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03-22-2013, 03:59 PM Post: #38
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
My god man, that question is huge.
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03-22-2013, 03:59 PM Post: #39
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RE: Black Mirror
No. What are your impressions on it?
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03-22-2013, 04:00 PM Post: #40
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
How deep have you delved into Japanese cinema?



RE: Black Mirror
Worth every traumatizing second, and a bit of a letdown in the way you might expect, though less than you might expect.
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03-22-2013, 04:01 PM Post: #42
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
It's everything Saw never was.
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03-22-2013, 04:04 PM Post: #43
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RE: Black Mirror
Quote:
Because of its scenes depicting intensely graphic violence, sadism and sexual depravity, the film was extremely controversial upon its release, and remains banned in several countries. The film is currently banned outright in Malaysia due to "repulsive, outrageous and abhorrent content" (extremely high impact violence, offensive depictions of cruelty and other content that is repelling and abhorrent). The film was then banned in Singapore due to its "extreme content that may cause controversy in Singapore". The film is banned outright in several other countries as well, including Sri Lanka, Iran, United Arab Emirates and Vietnam.
The film focuses on four wealthy, corrupted fascist libertines after the fall of Benito Mussolini's Italy in July 1943. The libertines kidnap eighteen teenage boys and girls and subject them to four months of extreme violence, sadism, and sexual and mental torture. The film is noted for exploring the themes of political corruption, abuse of power, sadism, perversion, sexuality and fascism.


See this is kind of different. I mean, yes, if I watched this movie I'm sure it would stay with me, but there are movies that attempt to (and maybe this one doesn't) be violent, and jarring, and usually there is a lot of it in the film. But it's one of those things where... for instance, Hostile still stays with me. It was shitty, but it just showed me images that I will never forget. There has to be a payoff.

But then there are films that disturb you with how closely it resembles the world that you are used to. Not some bloodbath inferno that likely wouldn't happen to you. But the world that you feel comfortable in.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-22-2013, 04:05 PM Post: #44
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Quote:
Worth every traumatizing second,

Quote:
What Saw never was.

I'll consider it. I'm kind of sensitive when it comes to violence, though.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-22-2013, 04:28 PM Post: #45
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
You're gonna hurt. There's no doubt about it. As a faithful product of the Marquis de Sades, it is a masochistic venture. That's why it actually is shocking. You may not notice, but those crappy, ineffective gore scenes are usually filmed and edited precisely to allow you that distance. Here, you can get exactly as close as you please. These men like guests.

The Secuestro Express one gets right into life. It shows you how you're in your happy, white world and suddenly all the underbelly of the city... It stays with you somehow. But I'm gonna watch that movie you mentioned, once I know the variant of "stays with you" it elicits, I may be able to recommend better things.

I just watched Arbitrage today with Richard Gere. It's the typical Richard Gere movie, but this one, as you say, kind of stuck with me.
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03-22-2013, 04:30 PM Post: #46
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
I'm gonna go calm down. Once I can do that I'll be able to focus and pick movies. There's just such a wide range..
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03-22-2013, 04:31 PM Post: #47
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
You watch Brazil yet?
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03-22-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #48
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
My God, I know what you need.
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03-22-2013, 04:37 PM Post: #49
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Michael Haeneke.

Pick any one.I'm out for now.
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03-22-2013, 04:47 PM Post: #50
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RE: Black Mirror
The concept of not using a score at all is interesting with regards to Haneke.

You are reminding me of this one movie that I never saw but seemed interesting: It involves these people that kidnap some homeless people or something and they are torturing them because there is (apparently) some sort of powerful truth that can be learned when one stands on the precipice of pain and insanity. If you can make it back, you get this secret.

Anyways I won't tell you how it ends if you haven't seen it yet. If anyone else is reading and knows of this movie let me know because I want to learn the name of it again.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?



RE: Black Mirror
I feel like films are banned because of one of two reasons:

1. They are subversive to society. IE: They're violent and crazy
2. They're subversive to the system. IE: They give you an insight into how the system really works.

Some can do both.

Film is so powerful. If clips of this show are allowed onto Youtube, it can do real damage. A lot of the time I picture myself on their side. "OK, if [this] thing took root, how much damage could it really do? All these laws are just fronts so that certain interests can do what they want.

People like Booker represent the faction of people that have realized that money trumps even their control sometimes. If you can put together a series that will make money, someone will air it somewhere. I don't even watch any British TV to know that '4' is probably not the most mainstream of the mainstream cable channels because Black Mirror is basically a series of films that tries to address the big power delusions:

1x1 - Democracy and The Crown's co-existence
1x2 - The celebrity/success sellout paradox
1x3 - Blindly just doing transhumanism

2x1 - Transhumanism again
2x2 - The voyeuristic society/how public execution is planned
2x3 - More British (Democracy) Stuff


Basically, what I'm just saying that there is obviously a priority on controlling who watches Category B.

What do you guys think?

There is another conceivable level where so long as these ideas are introduced in a controlled way, then money is put into the shows that, when they are watched, they want to have an affect. So Watt would say that they are using Booker (or he knows) to push out stuff that has to filter up from the grassroots level. I would imagine that is one of the core components to The Revelation of the Method.

In effect, you use people like me to get into conversations talking about how the show with all the cool technology is bad. Ultimately to most people, over time, it's just noise about transhumanism, acclimatising them to the idea.

Looking at the fact that Booker wrote all of these, and some of them play like he is writing while looking over some 'this -is- coming'-type documents. So his interest in taking this show might have been to take on the media and fulfill some agenda, but at least one of the episodes per series is flooded - fucking flooded - with technology stuff, that he was told if he wanted the money, had to be there. The only way he would get the idea and the ability to display this on screen would be if he was approached by some of these interests. Or that is how it seems. Like in 2x1 they show future iphones. Considering Apple sues literally everyone, it seems that they wanted it to be there.

In fact, this episode is what Siri would be when taken to it's extreme, and you know Apple wants data on stuff like this. As Booker shows in 2x2, being famous and being able to say what you want comes with a price.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-23-2013, 04:17 AM Post: #52
pezer Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Insightful.

Indeed, it's not so much about not showing the truth as it is including the basic components that they need you to have, I agree with this premise.

My friend used to say that The Matrix is precisely made to be true so that you will think it's a lie.

The best one can do is speculate, but some things we know for sure, and our speculations may be less off or pulled-out-of-ass than they seem.
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03-23-2013, 04:40 AM Post: #53
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-22-2013 03:49 PM)Q Wrote:
Perhaps I haven't been exposed to the crazy stuff, but the pig fucking one, for me, was crazy. I was thinking about it for a long time. It's not so much 'Oh, that was shocking, a guy fucking a pig.'

It was something else.

Likewise, the way the memory implant one makes you look at the future is fucking horrifying. That is precisely where we are going.

Where will you draw the line? And then what happens? It's the subtle stuff that gets to me. I kinda look Booker. He knows what he is. It's not some saint, but these videos are such that they are powerful. I think, at least.

Tell me some of the videos you have found truly shocking. Dramas, that is. I'm sure you've seen some crazy spy torture or the like. Or maybe not. I shouldn't presume that.

I'm not denying that this is powerful stuff, it is but as I keep saying I reckon they are basically doing the same thing Chris Morris did with Jam a decade ago.


[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpn7C6r-WEM[/video]


To be honest, nothing really shocks me in television drama. Perhaps it's just the word 'shock' that I'm finding problematic but it's usually only the real world that provokes a strong emotional reaction in me.

There is a scene in Spooks where one of the spooks is kidnapped by... whoever and for no obvious reason they clamp her in a chair with her head held in position with two big wooden blocks around her neck inside this big empty black room and they just leave her there for ages with water dripping on her head. That sort of thing bothers me more than, for example, the surprise murders in every HBO gangster show. Same with the scene in Das Experiment where the dude is locked in the small, lightproof, soundproof box. Fuckin' horrible.

I would rationalise it like this: there's nothing you can fundamentally do to stop people from being violent, except I suppose recreate them all digitally and then real physical fighting would be impossible. One cannot prevent violence, one can at best only ameliorate its consequences. So you could take away all the copycat-inducing glorification of violence in both the news and the entertainment media and we'd still have violence.

But when you explicitly portray for people how to torture people in the cruelest way, where you destroy their mind, destroy their connection with reality, that's something that most people simply would never think of without being shown it on TV. They might think of slapping their girlfriend, they might even slap her, but they'd never think of using sensory deprivation or chinese water torture.
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03-23-2013, 06:07 AM Post: #54
BigTom Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
(03-22-2013 05:32 PM)Q Wrote:
I feel like films are banned because of one of two reasons:

1. They are subversive to society. IE: They're violent and crazy
2. They're subversive to the system. IE: They give you an insight into how the system really works.

Some can do both.

I think it's that it is if they give you too much of an insight, too well, too quickly, too early. A little bit of insight is the revelation of the method.

Quote:
Film is so powerful. If clips of this show are allowed onto Youtube, it can do real damage. A lot of the time I picture myself on their side. "OK, if [this] thing took root, how much damage could it really do? All these laws are just fronts so that certain interests can do what they want.

It is curious that channel 4 offer the show on their own website but not via any of their many many youtube channels. They put shitloads of their stuff on youtube, but not this.

Quote:
People like Booker represent the faction of people that have realized that money trumps even their control sometimes. If you can put together a series that will make money, someone will air it somewhere. I don't even watch any British TV to know that '4' is probably not the most mainstream of the mainstream cable channels because Black Mirror is basically a series of films that tries to address the big power delusions:

1x1 - Democracy and The Crown's co-existence
1x2 - The celebrity/success sellout paradox
1x3 - Blindly just doing transhumanism

2x1 - Transhumanism again
2x2 - The voyeuristic society/how public execution is planned
2x3 - More British (Democracy) Stuff


Basically, what I'm just saying that there is obviously a priority on controlling who watches Category B.

What do you guys think?

1) His name is Brooker, not Booker.
2) You're right, channel 4 is the dedicated 'alternative end of the mainstream spectrum' channel. That's why it was set up - to feature odd stuff, racial/cultural minority stuff, whatever you wouldn't get on BBC or ITV (the first commercial TV channel in the UK). I don't disagree with your interpretation of the show.
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03-23-2013, 07:06 AM Post: #55
Q Offline
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RE: Black Mirror
Does anyone remember the show about the secret found in pain?

I wish I could remember that one.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:52 pm

ChainOfBeing Offline
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Your conspiracy
When deep answers unto deep, what the world lacks you've already made up for. What you don't know can hurt you more than what you do know, the devil isn't in the details but in the half-veils and truthful lies, so effective. The mind is capable only of a certain kind of belief about beliefs, information is apportioned and has its effect quite variously depending upon the host of factors regarding its physical characteristics and properties (in a brain, in a "society" brain of/for others).

Communication is always a manipulation of the intentions and expectations of the other, shaping a dynamic equilibrium of utilities tending toward ambivalences. And we are always communicating firstly and lastly with ourselves.

How many orders of effects have you considered, how much futurity, how much decontextualized truth formative of how many and what kinds of emotional orders? To what shallow waters does your intention aspire that its effect breed a reality from chaos and the unwilled? What is man but the supremely single-minded, single-hearted being? You are soaked in the blood of your other realities, so where is your justice? You know you might not even live through the day, we are all on borrowed time. Just stop and think about what really matters to you, for fuck's sake.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-19-2013, 06:50 AM Post: #2
Q Offline
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RE: Your conspiracy
Hmm.

Can you say that again but differently?
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03-19-2013, 08:10 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Your conspiracy
Why? That was perfect.

Just stop and think about what really matters to you, for fuck's sake.
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03-25-2013, 06:26 AM Post: #4
Dannerz Offline
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RE: Your conspiracy
Normally reality is incomprehensible because of how the factors are all churning and changing and flowing. But that is where the higher self comes into play. The higher self is so high level that it can, in some cases, even go so far as to manipulate the universe for the sake of its lower parts, which we are within, in our own way, mostly. In alchemy the goal is to improve matter. In spirituality the goal is to improve our state of mind and being. And in magic we utilize the soul and energy body.
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03-25-2013, 08:13 AM Post: #5
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Your conspiracy
Um.

What?







Greatest Value (freedom)
...in the sense as underlies and potentiates other values: freedom.

Freedom is merely the ability to act with relative non-hinderance, to "be natural" or at least to be capable of following one's own values and actions through to their logical and necessary consequences, with minimal disruption of these consequences/ends.

Freedom is not external, not in terms of money, power, jobs, ability to travel, lack of debt, not being in prison. These things do not matter. Why? because they are secondary values, or perhaps we might say, virtues. They are goods which are potentiated by truer valuations, such as for example the valuation of/as freedom.

Freedom is in "the mind". That is all.



...Religious constructs serve to potentiate this acting-toward-and-within "freedom", to cause to appear ladders down into the vast chains of being as erupt from beyond all knowing. The problem is that many of these religious constructs are relatively weak, what worked for man 2000 years ago may not have the same potentiating effect today. Also people use religion incorrectly, another huge problem.

Falsity is necessary to produce a structure whereby hidden "energies" are able to (feel themselves able to) manifest more openly, with less resistance and chaotic diffusion. Life is strange, and will shoot up, spread and grow everywhere if the ground is fertile enough.

(And who says that "the mind" is not as literally a physical ground of fertility and natural growth as any other natural ecosystem we observe in the world?) --->Tectonics dictates that indeed the mind is a physicality-strucutre of Literal Existence upon which are based quite literally Worlds and Universes of meaning and experience, whose interactions with what is otherwise thought of as "real life" still remain too "mysterious" for us to encounter other than through various manner of "voodoo ritual".

Three cheers for freedom. Go get some of that shit, if you don't already. Even if you regret it, you won't regret it.




Define it
Politics, philosophy. Ah to see, just to see, and to know. What tiny pleasures man still enjoys so much, and what puny ambitions!

Politicilosophy. Philosopholitics.

Sigh. But man is just not insane enough yet. Fuck. But I've seen some sanity, rare moments, little bits but there, very nice to see it, to breathe it in. Witness the first sapling.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.


Why be happy when you could be interesting?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U88jj6PSD7w


Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?

This is an honest query. I do not raise this question in ignorance or out of simple-mindedness, but because I understand his position. Is (his brand of) psychoanalysis the final "god", the truly highest and most fruitful limit (for the philosopher)?

I think not. But let's talk about it.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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04-07-2013, 12:20 PM Unread post Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
I think not too. I think it was the greatest limit at one time, when the Sun was still quite far away. The result of a beautiful mind-revolution against the Eld.

Having been visiting a psychoanalyst myself, though of a more Winnicott-ian variety, the value I see in them is as Guattari once described it (and I paraphrase): You don't really break through anything, or achieve anything, or honestly change in any deep way. What you gain is a power for calm consideration of your emotional being, something that works much like when the Great Patriarch of planet Namek unleashes Kuririn and Gohan's hidden powers in Dragon Ball Z. Same guys, but calmer, scarier, more comfortable to be around and with a power to separate training from battle to a higher degree.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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04-08-2013, 07:58 AM Unread post Post: #3
Heathen Offline
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
(04-07-2013 11:36 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U88jj6PSD7w


Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?

This is an honest query. I do not raise this question in ignorance or out of simple-mindedness, but because I understand his position. Is (his brand of) psychoanalysis the final "god", the truly highest and most fruitful limit (for the philosopher)?

I think not. But let's talk about it.
To be interesting as a goal seems confused to me. Then the little mental cliches of what an interesting person are become a kind of ego ideal. I mean, I doubt this is quite what he is looking for, but it seems like both a false dilemma and a dangerous one.

But I don't think he really has it as a false dilemma. I think he is just trying to attack the domination of the pursuit of happiness. Happiness often gets conflated with pleasure and then pleasure with rather emptied out physical acts. And purchasing happiness, these days.

I can't hear his video where I am now, but if I remember right, Zizek thinks that some of our wonderful obsessions, that really define who we are and what we most want to do, cause pain, and we take the pain because that is who we are and what we want to do. Whatever it is, research, creative work, etc.

If you run after the word happy, you may end up not living our your very self, which in fact you would prefer if the ideas of happiness was not the carrot you chose.

To me there is a sublter type of happiness in doing what you love even if you suffer (also), but I support is attack on happiness as THE GOAL.

Trying to be interesting, well, that as THE GOAL, seems just as dangerous to me.
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04-08-2013, 08:03 AM Unread post Post: #4
Q Offline
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RE: Why be happy when you could be interesting?
Zizek sees television and media characters as, instead of the commonly accepted "less" real, actually more real than any given person. Because these characters represent the ideal or the abstract. Happiness is more heavenly; depression is cosmic. It's the type of extremity that drives an artistic point home. It's been a while, but I think he says that we can enter into this world off-screen. I would say that, exposed to the big screen, this unconsciously becomes a semi-conscious drive. When you catch a glimpse of how good fashion, hair, bodies, etc can look, well, you get the idea in your head that you can be both happy and interesting. That you can be everything, perfectly.

I always loved Zizek for that theory. It makes watching Twin Peaks a whole other level of fucked.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?


[quote='pezer' pid='2553' dateline='1365373557']
"If you run after the word happy, you may end up not living our your very self, which in fact you would prefer if the ideas of happiness was not the carrot you chose."


[/quote]




[quote='exzc' pid='2560' dateline='1365389209']
Quote :
Why does Zizek think one cannot be both?
You can't be both because you can't be happy. He associates being happy with getting what you want, and then says...

00:54
"We don't really want to get what we think we want...the classical story that I like...the traditional male chauvinist scenario. I am married to a wife. Relations with her are cold, and I have a mistress. And all the time I dream...'oh my god, if my wife were to disappear [...] it would open up new life for me with the mistress.' You know what every psychoanalyst would tell you quite often happens? That then, for some reason, wife goes away, you lose the mistress also. You thought this is all I want when you had it there, you turn out that it was a much more complex situation where what you want is not really to live with the mistress, but to keep her as a distance, as an object of desire about which you dream."

I can't think of places where Zizek discusses happiness, but I doubt he's serious. Here's something that can be construed as background for the above quoted text.


[/quote]




[quote='ChainOfBeing' pid='2591' dateline='1365429021']
Yes it is a false dilemma, and yes a dangerous one. Lacan would answer with his own false dilemma, between jouissance and the external subjective order. But the mutually sustaining conditionality of things does not call reality into question, it propels forward and upward a new, "higher" kind of reality. Nor does man become called into question by his own structure, for this is philosophy itself, and as a wiser man once said to me, To live is to philosophize, rather we want to or not, rather we know it or not.

What is more self-divided and inexhaustible before itself is more "alive". Psychoanalysis serves to bring forth contradictions in the subjective nature and experience, not to purge these but to employ them, to allow them to become able to employ something (new). The psychoanalytic subject is not irreducible nor irreducibly complex, not even reductively so.

No facet of existence is belied because it gives cause for the existence of a different facet, rather by process of derivation or impossibilization. Man is just ignorant of the many sides of himself, conceptually at least; however he is highly aware at the level of instinct and feeling, his moralities reflect a functioning awareness of internal conflict and mutual expression of the irreducible. Zizek would do well to supplement psychologism with subtler experience, the more profound openness and humility that must stand beside the ruthlessness and tyranny at the heart of the true and living philosopher. In the end, after all is said and done, philosophy like living is about creating, is about (a certain kind of (possibilizing of/for/with respect to)) activity.
[/quote]



.

 

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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:53 pm

Beautiful chaos
There is ugly chaos and then there is beautiful chaos. The difference may only be one of perspective, of distance. Or only a matter of self-valuing.

It isn't all utilitarian, you know, far from it. Break on through....

Ethics impossibility
People who come to know and grow comfortable with each other usually tend to treat each other more like shit, find it easier to slide into objectifying relations where the carnal, untamed ego snarles forth in all its natural beauty and vehemence. Then effort can be applied to tame the beast, to collar and muzzle it.

Without risk there is no life. Truth is risk for the sake of (a certain kind of) living, or rather for the sake of not dying (a slow and degenerative death).

If you can't hurt the other, if you have no such will nor a willingness to be hurt, which manifests itself in a moment as impulse to defense, then you cannot love, and life is merely a slow dying. The biggest problem with rampant un-philosophical humanism or idealism is that it is basically a loud proclamation, "I am mostly harmless", and calling this an ethical standard.



Ontology of Man
Aggregated causal relations that attain to the production of more summational effects emergent of their average activity, or at least of the absence of the extremities of the components of their laws in the emergence of these activities, being inwardly compounded and more intimately linked in their mutual determinacy, constitute what I have called a plane of causality, or a plate tectonic. What we call organisms are build upon these sort of tectonic plates, a veritable shifting landscape of interacting components that both share and violate each other's activity and "intention" to perform the discharge of their mandate upon their conditions. A single cell is such an example, as could also be considered a single molecule such an example, especially where the molecule is more derivative, more "complex" ("larger") than not.

Living systems are the aggregation of many systems of plate tectonics formative of a world, the organism itself. The history constructs the layers and pieces of these plates, and the geometry of a physical moment constitutes its activity, its "living". Free will is merely that kind of total determination which possesses some responsiveness to the active absence of some more or less imposing component/s of its own causal order/s which it nonetheless still feels as an active presence within this order, even where "absent". Self-consciousness is merely that kind of tectonic meta-system or 'world' ("organ-ism") whose causal order/s possess this feeling of "freedom", of a sense of past and a projected sense of the various systemically-realized possibilities of affective expression; namely, that is has something of an "imagination".

This is the ontology of man. Like it or not, this is what he "is". Science is entirely subsumed under philosophy, under logic. The method of philosophy is nothing but psychology, what humans have yet barely begun to discover.

That which avoids itself and returns to itself only through the most convoluted and circuitous route most possesses itself, since that which does not flee itself can never return to itself, can never gain a "perspective".
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.

 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:55 pm

Ontology of the accident
Eternality, rivers which flow inward, bypasses set up, what cuts through the stuff of solid resistance and porous of causalities, imagined loops, trifles, the tinkering half-conscious with things along the borders of experience.

Externality, the set of sets transcribing a dawn, feeding medication-induced intoxications, establishing order between the gate and the guard, holding the keys, assurances of peace and the mad sleep of the quiet lion.

The accident of things recalls the accident of our birth, which itself is beyond all recollection. Only an isolated harmony would vibrate, unplanned for, along the spine of such an instinctive cosmos.
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04-13-2013, 08:57 AM Post: #2
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RE: Ontology of the accident
Yeah, but can you prove it?
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04-13-2013, 09:09 AM Post: #3
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RE: Ontology of the accident
I just did.
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04-24-2013, 09:14 AM Post: #4
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RE: Ontology of the accident
Or, since that didn't work: what would you accept as a standard of "proof" here?
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Philosophy as history
The entire history of humanity had been the history of what humans call thinking and feeling; evolution of the internal imaging system, development of the modes f regulating this system (languages, behavior, emotions), and every more derivative thing that had emerged as a result. We are taught how to think, what to think, how to feel, what to feel, how to live, what to live, how to die, what to die.

Philosophy is nothing more than learning bit by bit how to speak the language of history. And we speak only what history had given us, rather out of insight or ignorance, generality or genius.
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The eye no longer sees, or...
'It is perhaps at this juncture that the question, "What does it mean?" begins to be heard, and the problems of exegesis prevail over problems of use and efficacy. The emperor, the god---what does this mean? In place of segments of the chain that are always detachable, a detached partial object on which the whole chain depends; in place of a polyvocal graphism flush with the real, a biunivocalization forming the transcendent dimension that gives rise to a linearity; in place of nonsignifying signs that compose the networks of a territorial chain, a despotic signifier from which all the signs uniformly flow in a deterritorialized flow of writing. Men have ever been seen drinking this flow...

Writing---the first deterritorialized flow, drinkable on this account: it flows from the despotic signifier. For what is the signifier in the first instance? What is it in relation to the non signifying territorial signs, when it jumps outside their chains and imposes---superimposes---a plane of subordination on their plane of immanent connotation? The signifier is the sign that has become a sign of the sign, the despotic sign having replaced the territorial sign, having crossed the threshold of deterritorialization; the signifier is merely the deterritorialized sign itself. The sign made letter. Desire no longer dares to desire, having become a desire of desire, a desire of the despot's desire. The mouth no longer speaks, it drinks the letter. The eye no longer sees, it reads. The body no longer allows itself to be engraved like the earth, but prostrates itself before the engravings of the despot, the region beyond the earth, the new full body.'
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.



rabattre sur
Just try to reduce the limit of sense's irreconcilable experience before the wider logos of rational reflection, maybe purge something in order to imprison something else, & what revolt or eros sustains your whispering heart, so confide in the dimensionality of (a) time.

What has most *life introduced into your heart?




*[notation missing]



Enrapturing Ideality
LegendxGodly 1 hour ago
You dont need to be gay to like the song dipshit.
Reply · in reply to zCautioNz (Show the comment)


zCautioNz 1 day ago
i would favorite this song, but the first two lines = instant disliked (i am far from gay)
Reply ·


Aaron Dash 1 day ago
You probably didn't ruin their day. Whenever that happens to me and my boyfriend we just laugh at the fact that those people's brains are smaller than ours and can't understand equality. Also, saying hateful things to two men really isn't a good idea (especially if you're alone). You just might get chased down and get your ass kicked Smile
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Adriana Sanz 1 day ago
I'm an atheist. No if indeed, existed, God exists but what I know is that people hate each other, without any logical reason, based on the bible my balls. Instead of respecting, hate evil, not to love ... ps i love the beat , lyrics especially when says SHE KEEPS ME WARM, LOVE IS PATIENT, LOVE IS KIND. ps2 true words.
Reply ·


zephyrbat 3 days ago
synonymous, not anonymous.
Reply ·


PilarKathleenPouchet 1 week ago
God doesn't hate gay people. Don't be stupid. Ignore all silly comments you get from people & their religions. God loves you no matter who or what you are.
Reply · 3 in reply to chelsea paige (Show the comment)


smileymileylove101 1 week ago
So many of the comments on this video are just horribale...saying this song is gay and Macklemore is only writing this to make $. I'm sick of all the hurtful comments...you should have more respect towards people and think about how other's feel for onece. It's not all about you.
Reply ·


smileymileylove101 1 week ago
same...the song has a lot of meaning that is hard to take in all at one time. I feel you.
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girlofanimation 1 week ago
Just realized that last part sounds like 'God hates hateful people'. I meant, God doesn't hate anyone. Only hateful people try to tell us otherwise.
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girlofanimation 1 week ago
He doesn't. God loves everyone, regardless of sexual orientation. It's just ignorant people. There is no place in the Bible that ever says that God hates homosexual people. There are places, however, where it says that God loves everyone
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05-08-2013, 02:33 AM Post: #2
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RE: Enrapturing Ideality
whateverppl1229 2 hours ago
No not everyone are pigs, she said ART meaning the music is not just music its art. go back to your whore house and leave the good music alone.
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whateverppl1229 2 hours ago
You miss spelled I'm an attention whore flag me.
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Mike K. 18 hours ago
hmm hot chick 35 likes one word comment..something tells me that half these likes are only cause that girl is smokin hot..XD
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Jerry Krits 1 day ago
cooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo­oooooooooooooooooooool
Reply ·


septumis 2 days ago
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. But I will find you. And I will beat the fuck out of you. -_-
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FSquid 2 days ago
Brilliant work but really, trolling tool fans is like shooting fish in a barrel.
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sdhawk4life 3 days ago
3 Libras Brilliant
Reply ·


gorlist187 3 days ago
now this is an album that brings back memories
Reply ·


rreegg333 3 days ago
it is!!!!!
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JimmyDiggs87 3 days ago
I think so. It was like 9 years ago, so I'm not certain.
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HarleyTheMad 4 days ago
What a blast from the past, I've forgotten how much I love this band, thank you so much for uploading the whole album! Favorited and liked!
Reply · in playlist Favorite videos


FALTEREDBEAST 4 days ago
You win the award for dumbass comment of the year. Fucken Chevelle.... Get outta here with that weak ass shit.
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atomicbomba 4 days ago
This has been flagged as spam show • Not Spam


Carlos Hernández 5 days ago
WTF are you talking about????... chevelle..... ppppppppppffffffffffffffffffff­ffffff
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05-08-2013, 01:32 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Enrapturing Ideality
septumis 2 days ago
I don't know who you are. I don't know what you want. But I will find you. And I will beat the fuck out of you. -_-
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I love this one.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:56 pm

Time
Let's talk about time. What do you think it is? Explain.
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05-11-2013, 10:46 PM Post: #2
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RE: Time
Too easy..
Time ≡ the measure of relative change.
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05-11-2013, 11:10 PM Post: #3
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RE: Time
That is exactly what I was going to say.
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05-12-2013, 05:57 AM Post: #4
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RE: Time
Time is the aspect of continuation that englobes and encompasses others. Things keep going... If you decide to ask why, the answer is time.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-12-2013, 11:09 AM Post: #5
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RE: Time
So what's all this nonsense about time being a dimension?
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05-12-2013, 03:33 PM Post: #6
pezer Offline
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RE: Time
It's a dimension in the sense that it is a measure. You can reliably detect the amount of time from one point in spacetime to another.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-14-2013, 02:00 AM Post: #7
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RE: Time
Only in relation, as a relativized proportion. A dimension implies a plane of more or less causal consistency, law, a "grounding" from which things grow and relate as through a medium. If time is a dimension then time acts like a plane of consistency for things, like the highway beneath the car. Something "solid" upon which things move and to which they continuously refer.

Is time really like this? Or is the idea of a "time dimension" a sloppy shortcut to thinking, an inaccurate conceptual atavism?
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05-14-2013, 03:54 AM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Time
It makes sense in a very specific academic sense. Perhaps you are right and we should drop it... In any case, my definition uses the word "aspect," which I think we can fairly call it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"


The philosopher's dilemma
"My God! Of course not! I don’t want to deal with myself. I don’t want to exist. I just want to think."

--Zizek
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[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='3158' dateline='1368834426']
.








..................................................





[size=medium]Is it possible that The philosopher's dilemma involves separating ones self from their thoughts?[/size]





.
[/quote]



Thread Review (Newest First)
Posted by pezer - 05-18-2013 10:12 PM
Bah... That's just one of the dilemmas, Bill, and quite escapable. The one ChainOfBeing is pointing out is less easy to escape, because it would require going outside not to be programmed to reflect your self right back at you.

Thinking without being is a goal for humanity, or a segment of it, not a single philosopher (unless he happens to be rich as fuck, I suppose).




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Freedom and determinism
are the same thing.


Groovy.
Abandon all hope, ye wh



[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='3159' dateline='1368834682']
.


[size=large]
Do we first have to determine what is freedom?[/size]





..........................................................................





.
[/quote]



pezer Offline
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RE: Freedom and determinism
First you have to free what is determined.
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05-19-2013, 01:05 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 01:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #4
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RE: Freedom and determinism
What we call freedom is an (equally determined, but (also, in addition to) by something else) perspective upon what is determined, or said another way freedom is the way in which things exist-act with respect to that which they have structurally integrated into their own body, to that which they have "overcome". Freedom requires an "awareness" of the unfree, of the determined Law. This is merely a sense-response capacity within the body. Being able to respond to something means one has gained some distance from/over it, which is all that freedom means. It does not mean that one is still not nonetheless entirely over-determined by entirely different and greater orders of causalities.

To exist implies at least a minimal degree of freedom. Likewise, a so-called unbounded or absolute freedom is entirely impossible, since to be "totally free" would mean to destroy that upon which freedom exists in the first place. Life is the combination of various things that are a part of it and which have become more or less "free" with respect to other things that are also a part of it, but you always need the two extremes: the purely determined-reactive as law, what is "below the unconscious", and the transcendental dimension of unlimited over-deterministic potentiality, what is "above the conscious". Only in the more psychologically and neurologically complex animals, who possess something of an inner language and abstraction, is this latter extreme anything but a collapsed 0-dimensional point, a "unexpressed potentiality" that nonetheless serves to continuously antagonize the entity's instinctive body with immediate and mad images of "the other". For simpler life-forms without much depth of inner language or abstraction, the dimension of freedom is the greatest slavery. This is why it is only when we begin to unwind and tear apart this dimension that life begins to gain new powers of practical action, new modes of possible experiencing.
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05-19-2013, 01:53 AM Post: #5
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RE: Freedom and determinism
Not since I have created my own language, no it is not.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 7:58 pm

Addictions
These are our best friends, truly the best. It is through these wonderful companions that we are able to encounter and to expand our "willpower", to employ an archaic but perhaps not entirely useless term. Addictions function to mirror "self" to "self", through the objective "Other-ness"... meaning in less metaphysical jargon, one causal plane, carrying with it its own inherited structurality and law, collides with/in another causal plane, also carrying its own inherited structurality and law, resulting in eruptions of strange and tremendous logics, whole new tectonic potencies and what humans so fondly refer to as their "self-control".

What lies inside the mind, the psyche, the intent, the expression, the conformity to experience and expressionality, to the vague, the mysterious, the awe-inspiring, the terrorizing, the humane and the vindictive alike, is exposed as if through a brilliant explosion of light and heat, radiated inward, for where else is it supposed to go, really?

What friction does radiate outward will immediately become recaptured by the body's gravity, for to progressively invoke powers here progressively necessitates the near-simultaneous development of 'insane machines of absolute capture'.
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05-26-2013, 08:33 AM  Post: #2
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RE: Addictions
.


We are all addicts and we are all weak.


Weaker than shadows...



and helpless against these demons.



.
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05-26-2013, 08:37 AM  Post: #3
pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
That's like saying that we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath....
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-26-2013, 08:37 AM  Post: #4
pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
If these be demons, call me a shaitanist.


Bill Wiltrack wrote:

.





.....................................




[size=medium]

I'm sorry. What I was trying to say is, we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath....


Thank you for allowing me to clear that up.

[/size]

.






pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
We have been created by those demons. Eating doesn't serve our souls, our souls serve eating. More than helplesness, inconsequence.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"



Bill Wiltrack wrote:

.

[size=medium]
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to bring-up the topic of souls...urm, wait a minute...?[/size]






.....................................................






.





pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
Don't be scared of your own insinuations now.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-26-2013, 10:57 AM  Post: #9
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RE: Addictions
.


Yeah...you're right...


I didn't mean to bring-up the term insinuations. Sorry. Just forget it.




.
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05-26-2013, 11:12 AM  Post: #10
pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
This is a bad way to admit a broken point.





RE: The scariest fucking thing ever


RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
A rectangle of space?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 04:52 AM  Post: #3
pezer  Offline
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
No, the hoards of prostrated men around it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-20-2013, 06:55 AM  Post: #4
Q  Offline
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
I am perhaps missing something here.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 10:03 PM  Post: #5
pezer  Offline
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
http://beauty-places.com/wp-content/uplo...lpaper.jpg
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 05:14 PM  Post: #6
Q  Offline
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
Much better to face these kinds of things with a sense of poise and rationality.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:05 PM  Post: #7
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
Yeah exactly, that's why its so goddamn terrifying.
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05-21-2013, 09:00 PM  Post: #8
pezer  Offline
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RE: The scariest fucking thing ever
The blinding terror of the gleeful rejection of reason.

Addictions
These are our best friends, truly the best. It is through these wonderful companions that we are able to encounter and to expand our "willpower", to employ an archaic but perhaps not entirely useless term. Addictions function to mirror "self" to "self", through the objective "Other-ness"... meaning in less metaphysical jargon, one causal plane, carrying with it its own inherited structurality and law, collides with/in another causal plane, also carrying its own inherited structurality and law, resulting in eruptions of strange and tremendous logics, whole new tectonic potencies and what humans so fondly refer to as their "self-control".

What lies inside the mind, the psyche, the intent, the expression, the conformity to experience and expressionality, to the vague, the mysterious, the awe-inspiring, the terrorizing, the humane and the vindictive alike, is exposed as if through a brilliant explosion of light and heat, radiated inward, for where else is it supposed to go, really?

What friction does radiate outward will immediately become recaptured by the body's gravity, for to progressively invoke powers here progressively necessitates the near-simultaneous development of 'insane machines of absolute capture'.
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05-26-2013, 08:33 AM  Post: #2
Bill Wiltrack  Offline
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RE: Addictions
.


We are all addicts and we are all weak.


Weaker than shadows...



and helpless against these demons.



.
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05-26-2013, 08:37 AM  Post: #3
pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
That's like saying that we are helpless against the demons of food, love, curiosity, sex, adrenaline, instinct, sight, thought, breath....
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-26-2013, 08:37 AM  Post: #4
pezer  Offline
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RE: Addictions
If these be demons, call me a shaitanist.


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Univocity
Differences differenced inwardly as well as outwardly along planes of latitude and longitude. Scales of identities linked in how they share particular characteristics and kinds of differentiations across differing orders of materialities. Not Platonic, but Daemonic. At bottom: the virtual multi/non-dimensional cross-referentiality of "past and future", time-as-space and space-as-time in the vague soup of pre-reflective agitation-as-inability-to-rest; "chasmos". [Insert Value Ontology Here]


Deleuze: Pluralism = monism. Fucking A, man.



Why has philosophy had its head up its ass for so goddamn long?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-27-2013, 06:51 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:52 PM by pezer.)  Unread post Post: #2
pezer  Offline
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RE: Univocity
Christians.

Goddamn christians.


 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:05 pm

ChainOfBeing Offline
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Univocity
Differences differenced inwardly as well as outwardly along planes of latitude and longitude. Scales of identities linked in how they share particular characteristics and kinds of differentiations across differing orders of materialities. Not Platonic, but Daemonic. At bottom: the virtual multi/non-dimensional cross-referentiality of "past and future", time-as-space and space-as-time in the vague soup of pre-reflective agitation-as-inability-to-rest; "chasmos". [Insert Value Ontology Here]


Deleuze: Pluralism = monism. Fucking A, man.



Why has philosophy had its head up its ass for so goddamn long?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.


[quote='ChainOfBeing' pid='3436' dateline='1369638537']
        P       e
           h   a
            i t
           l      i
         o        o
       s          n
      o          _
       p       o
        h    f
          y _
         _  c
       i       o
     s          n
   _             c
   t            e
   h          p
    e       t
       _  s
        c>
       r  >
[/quote]




RE: Metaphilosophy
The human mind and experience is the creation of connections. It happens automatically.

I think philosophy is the process of rendering questions less pertinent.

If you look back at philosophy, proper, you find that it's all just advancing the plot.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-27-2013, 06:47 PM Unread post Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Metaphilosophy
¡¡NIETZSCHE!!

Philosophy is historical. If we listen to Deleuze, and we should always make space for Deleuze (lol, more like understand it), it is the craftsmanship of ideas. Concepts are a modern word for ideas, it puts them in a narrower field, ties them to linguistics in a self-reflective way that humans have been mastering lately.

Philosophy doesn't matter, but only because of its own sheer strength of self-overcoming.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"



[quote='pezer' pid='3451' dateline='1369644516']
[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DskjRer95s[/video]
[/quote]




[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='3496' dateline='1369785151']
.








....................................................











.
[/quote]




[quote='ChainOfBeing' pid='3520' dateline='1369857727']
               T--s
              o-----s
            _--------e
           l-----------s
          i-----------_
           v--------t
            e-----o
               _-_
               mw
              e---h
             a------i
           n---------c
          s-----------h
         _-----------_
          t---------o
            o-----n
              _-e
                f_
               i--i
             n-----s
           e--------_
         s-----------s
         s-----------u
          e--------b
             _----j
              t--u
               hg
              e--a
             _-----t
           p--------e
          r-----------d
         o----------->
         c---------->
          e------->
[/quote]






[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='3526' dateline='1369870437']
.




..................................................
[size=medium]

.....................................To live means to finesse the processes to which one is subjugated.[/size]



.
[/quote]





[quote='W.C.' pid='3533' dateline='1369885230']
[quote='Q' pid='3442' dateline='1369642160']If you look back at philosophy, proper, you find that it's all just advancing the plot.[/quote]

I was very much reminded of Artaud, and felt strangely compelled to add the following on the above quote...



[quote='The Theatre and Its Double - 1938 - Artaud']In true theatre, a play disturbs the senses' repose, frees the repressed unconscious, incites a kind of virtual revolt (which moreover can have its full effect only if it remains virtual), and imposes on the assembled collectively an attitude that is both difficult and heroic. Thus in Ford's 'Tis Pity She's a Whore, from the moment the curtain rises, we see to our utter stupefaction a creature flung into an insolent vindication of incest, exerting all the vigor of his youthful consciousness to proclaim and justify it.

He does not waver an instant, does not hesitate a minute, and thereby shows of how little account are all the barriers that could be opposed to him. He is heroically criminal and audaciously, ostentatiously heroic. Everything drives him in this direction and inflames his enthusiasm; he recognises neither earth nor heaven, only the force of his convulsive passion, to which the rebellious and equally heroic passion of Annabella does not fail to respond. 'I weep,' she says, 'not with remorse but for fear I shall not be able to satisfy my passion.' They are both forgers, hypocrites, and liars for the sake of their superhuman passion which laws obstruct and condemn but which they will put beyond the law.

Vengeance for vengeance, and crime for crime. When we believed them threatened, hunted down, lost, when we are ready to pity them as victims, then they reveal themselves ready to render destiny threat for threat and blow for blow. With them we proceed from excess to excess and vindication to vindication. Annabella is captured, convicted of adultery and incest, trampled upon, insulted, dragged by the hair, and we are astonished to discover that far from seeking a means of escape, she provokes her executioner still further and sings out in a kind of obstinate heroism. It is the absolute condition of revolt, it is an exemplary case of love without respite which makes us, the spectators, gasp with anguish at the idea that nothing will ever be able to stop it.

If we desire an example of absolute freedom in revolt, Ford's Annabella provides this poetic example bound up with the image of absolute danger. And when we tell ourselves we have reached the paroxysm of horror, blood, and flouted laws, of poetry which consecrates revolt, we are obliged to advance still further into an endless vertigo. But ultimately, we tell ourselves, there is vengeance, there is dead for such audacity and such irresistible crime. But there is no such thing. Giovanni, the lover, inspired by the passion of a great poet, puts himself beyond vengeance, beyond crime, by still another crime, one that is indescribably passionate; beyond threats, beyond horror by an even greater horror, one which overthrows at one and the same time law, morality, and all those who dare set themselves up as administrators of justice.

A trap is cleverly set, a great banquet is given where, among the guests, hired ruffians and spies are to be hidden, ready at the first signal to throw themselves upon him. But this hero, cornered, lost, and inspired by love, will let no one pass sentence on this love. You want, he seems to say, my love's flesh and blood. Very well, I will throw my love in your face and shower you with its blood—for you are incapable of rising to its height! And he kills his beloved and tears out her heart as if to feast upon it in the middle of a banquet where he himself is the one whom the guests had hoped to devour. And before being executed, he manages to kill his rival, his sister's husband, who has dared to come between him and his love, and despatches him in a final combat which then appears as his own spasm of agony.

Like the plague, the theatre is a formidable call to the forces that impel the mind by example to the source of its conflicts. And it is evident that Ford's passional example merely symbolises a still greater and absolutely essential task. The terrorising apparition of Evil which in the Mysteries of Eleusis was produced in its pure, truly revealed form corresponds to the dark hour of certain ancient tragedies which all true theatre must recover. If the essential theatre is like the plague, it is not because it is contagious, but because like the plague it is the revelation, the bringing forth, the exteriorisation of a depth of latent cruelty by means of which all the perverse possibilities of the mind, whether of an individual or a people, are localised. Like the plague the theatre is the time of evil, the triumph of dark powers that are nourished by a power even more profound until extinction.

In the theatre as in the plague there is a kind of strange sun, a light of abnormal intensity by which it seems that the difficult and even the impossible suddenly become our normal element. And Ford's play, like all true theatre, is within the radiance of this strange sun. His Annabella resembles the plague's freedom by means of which, from degree to degree, stage to stage, the victim swells his individuality and the survivor gradually becomes a grandiose and overwhelming being.

We can now say that all true freedom is dark, and infallibly identified with sexual freedom which is also dark, although we do not know precisely why. For it has been a long time since the Platonic Eros, the procreative sense, the freedom of life vanished beneath the sombre veneer of the Libido which is identified with all that is dirty, abject, infamous in the process of living and of throwing oneself headlong with a natural and impure vigour, with a perpetually renewed strength, upon life. And that is why all the great Myths are dark, so that one cannot imagine, save in an atmosphere of carnage, torture and bloodshed, all the magnificent Fables which recount to the multitudes the first sexual division and the first carnage of essences that appeared in creation. The theatre, like the plague, is in the image of this carnage and this essential separation. It releases conflicts, disengages powers, liberates possibilities, and if these possibilities and these powers are dark, it is not the fault of the plague nor of the theatre, but of life.

We do not see that life as it is and as it has been fashioned for us provides many reasons for exultation. It appears that by means of the plague, a gigantic abscess, as much moral as social, has been collectively drained; and that like the plague, the theatre has been created to drain abscesses collectively. Perhaps the theatre’s position, injected into the social body, disintegrates it, as Saint Augustine says, but at least it does so as a plague, as an avenging scourge, a redeeming epidemic in which credulous ages have chosen to see the finger of God in which is nothing but the application of a law of nature whereby every gesture is counterbalanced by a gesture and every action by its reaction.

The theatre like the plague is a crisis which is resolved by death or cure. And the plague is a superior disease because it is a total crisis after which nothing remains except death or an extreme purification. Similarly the theatre is a disease because it is the supreme equilibrium which cannot be achieved without destruction. It invites the mind to share a delirium which exults its energies; and we can see, to conclude, that from the human point of view, the action of theatre, like that of plague, is beneficial, for, impelling men to see themselves as they are, it causes the mask to fall, reveals the lie, the slackness, baseness, and hypocrisy of our world; it shakes off the asphyxiating inertia of matter which invades even the clearest testimony of the senses; and in revealing to the collectivities of men their dark power, their hidden force, it invites them to take, in the face of destiny, a superior and heroic attitude they would never have assumed without it.

And the question we must now ask is whether, in this slippery world which is committing suicide without noticing it, there can be found a nucleus of men capable of imposing this superior notion of the theatre, men who will restore to all of us the natural and magic equivalent of the dogmas in which we no longer believe.
[/quote]
[/quote]


 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:07 pm

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Revolution and philosophy
In many ways philosophy and revolution are opposing impulses, not to speak of the consequences engendered by them -- the revolutionary takes up an idea as the living substance of his act, he thinks and feels within the bounds of the idea, while the philosopher takes up an act as the living substance of his idea, the idea is subjected always to the philosopher's more free thought and feeling. Where the revolutionary's impulse is to fully embody an idea as his very life, the philosopher's impulse is to embody life with his ideas. The philosopher does not act, he thinks; the revolutionary does not think, he acts.

These are the polarities in between which everyone else falls somewhere, sitting along the continuum somewhere in the middle. Dull philosophers become intellectuals or scientists, dull revolutionaries become politicians or join a religion.
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05-31-2013, 10:18 AM Unread post Post: #2
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RE: Revolution and philosophy
Marx is an interesting case because he tried his best to straddle both worlds, to refuse to let one impulse consume the other even as both continued to develop in parallel. He must have been a profoundly unhappy man. Regardless, while both his effect and his truth suffered slightly as a result of his dual allegiance, at least he can say to have achieved success in both.







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Advertising
The malevolent genius of advertising is that it gets humans to kill each other. No third party even needed.
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05-17-2013, 12:39 AM Post: #2
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RE: Advertising
I love advertising.

I am not one to rule over people. But I am one to manipulate them.
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05-17-2013, 06:33 AM Post: #3
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RE: Advertising
Toward what end/s?
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05-17-2013, 09:21 AM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
More importantly, with what carrots?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-17-2013, 10:54 AM Post: #5
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RE: Advertising
(05-17-2013 06:33 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Toward what end/s?

Just for the sake of doing it.

Quote:
More importantly, with what carrots?

Phantasms of the mind.
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05-17-2013, 05:43 PM Post: #6
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Phantasms... Echoes... Fetishes... Lies...

Like faces of an imperfect lens through which we interpret incoming matter. The tragedy isn't that the lens is imperfect, but that the right to manipulate its imperfection has been hijacked in the name of perfection... Just like the boogyman doesn't exist, and there are no monsters under your bed; there is no perfection.

Knowledge is receptive, not constructive. Construction itself is derivative of what was already there. That is my problem with advertising, it pretends that pure construction is true by pretending to cynically falsify it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-17-2013, 07:06 PM Post: #7
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RE: Advertising
I want to revolutionize the industry. I have since I was a kid. Hulu's CEO makes interesting remarks along these lines. It doesn't have to be so shitty. I want to change it.
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05-17-2013, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-17-2013 07:20 PM by pezer.) Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Then you are stuck in the same position as a reformist Catholic priest, even pope: you have an institution backing you, and it has a history.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-17-2013, 07:25 PM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
There is a very specific line of psychological study that leads to advertising, and it is closely linked to unabashed financial lust.

As soon as it's finance it's money, which is a central bank and a police force and the neo-liberal oligarchic industry which happens to be able to and interested in financing it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-17-2013, 07:28 PM Post: #10
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
If you can harness those forces, power to you. You are Neo. But I relate most to the cranky captain in the sequels that refuses to believe in prophecy and just thinks the machine world is a thing to be absorbed with fear and acceptance of non knowledge. In the end I'll "fight" on your side, but I think you're nuts.


RE: Advertising
Come again?

I just want to make cool commercials?
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05-18-2013, 10:54 PM Post: #12
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I'll narrow it down into an equation.

Commercials = Cognitive Behavioral Psychological Tradition + Neo-Liberal Oligarchic Pressure - Any Thing That Distracts From The Oligarchic Economy And Law
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-19-2013, 01:38 AM Post: #13
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-17-2013 10:54 AM)Q Wrote:
(05-17-2013 06:33 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Toward what end/s?

Just for the sake of doing it.

Then your aim cannot possibly be ethical, which means rational. Not even to speak of your end.
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05-19-2013, 02:03 AM Post: #14
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
I disagree. I think you guys are just trying to be cool or something.

For instance, the last thing my company produced was a 'What to watch on Netflix' flow hart. It was popular because it was so helpful.

Advertising isn't all the stuff you garner from watching Mad Men. These days, it's more about solving problems. The Internet is a beautiful thing. You should join us all in the present.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-19-2013, 02:30 AM Post: #15
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
No dude, we understand what actual advertising is. What we are saying is that we don't understand how you can keep your view of it so narrow as to not see the driving forces around it that aren't immediately next to it.

How to say this without sounding like an unpalatable hipster?

No matter how you advertise Netflix, you are still pumping life into the wider evolutionary system of advertising. That is, even though you aren't like in Mad Men, you still cater to the same forces and with tools descended from theirs.

On a personal level, my point is that I think you are bonkers to pump that prime and expect the results to be what you describe when you talk about revolutionizing it. I see it very much like the Morpheus style of crazy, where you are searching for The One that can infiltrate the programming structure of the system itself and liberate us from these millenial demons from the inside. I call it crazy because I am like Commander Lock from the sequels: Fuck Neo, we don't need the system's own tools to defeat it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-19-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #16
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RE: Advertising
The reason you hate advertising so much is the same reason I want to change it.

What should I do with my life? Make 9/11 documentaries or something?
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-19-2013, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 06:57 AM by pezer.) Post: #17
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I had the same conundrum as you with politics. What "worked" for me was to go behind politics, which is how I found academic social theory and philosophy.

On the other hand I write porn ads, I''m not denying the need to make money. It's a shitty conondrum, there's no question about it.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-19-2013, 09:45 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 09:45 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #18
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RE: Advertising
(05-17-2013 07:28 PM)pezer Wrote:
If you can harness those forces, power to you. You are Neo. But I relate most to the cranky captain in the sequels that refuses to believe in prophecy and just thinks the machine world is a thing to be absorbed with fear and acceptance of non knowledge. In the end I'll "fight" on your side, but I think you're nuts.

He needs guidance. But you can see in how he designed this site that he knows what he's doing rationally. So - it's just a matter of finding a product to place at the little object A.
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05-19-2013, 11:13 AM Post: #19
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RE: Advertising
Advertizing is king in our world, which apparently is very much to the theme of Schopenhauer - Wille und Vorstellung - Will and <i>imag</i>ination.
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05-19-2013, 11:16 AM Post: #20
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RE: Advertising
" “Every man takes the limits of his own field of vision for the limits of the world.” " - Schopenhauer
And advertizing is re/up/trendsetting further limits of vision.
I am all for it. I want to learn. Take me to your base.



RE: Advertising
I wish you guys would just talk English sometimes.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 02:53 AM Post: #22
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RE: Advertising
It's like saying that people shouldn't farm or something. There will always be advertising. It's who I work for that matters, not the act of advertising.

I hate to break it to you, but the Star Trek TNG perfect society isn't happening. At least not in our lives.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?


[quote='pezer' pid='3209' dateline='1368988641']
I'm not saying you shouldn't do it. I'm saying you're more crazy to think that you can use the system for anything other than what it wants you to than I am to think the system can be defeated. It's opinion, we're two doctors that can't agree on the cure, or even sometimes on the disease. But fuck it, doctors are notorious for cooperating anyways.


Btw, about star treck, two things:

It's already happening [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usRYa_dpPFU[/video] (Captain's log, number minus 00001 (cause he's not commander yet))

It sounds like a future to avoid to me. Centralized power bullshit.
[/quote]



Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Specifically why can't I revolutionize advertising?

The system won't allow it? Why operate with that attitude? By that logic, why do anything? Why have goals?
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05-20-2013, 08:18 AM Post: #25
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RE: Advertising
Why don't you be more specific- how/what specifically are you doing or do you want to do to "revolutionize" the system of advertising?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-20-2013, 10:01 AM Post: #26
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
The open letter the Hulu CEO wrote is close to what I want to do:

Make it interesting.
Make it relavant.
Make it so advertising and propaganda are two different things (again or for the first time).

Think of how much wasted time goes to ads you don't care about. It shouldn't be like that.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 10:22 AM Post: #27
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
So you want personalized advertising? Who will decide what is or is to be interesting to someone?

There is a sort of tightening closed circle when you begin to close off present and future experience based on past experience. I cannot see how the novelty aspect of advertising is anywhere close to the most harmful aspect of it, rather this may be one of its only saving graces.

Regarding advertising and propaganda, how do you understand the difference?
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05-20-2013, 10:38 AM Post: #28
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
The difference is as follows:

Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology.

(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.


It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 10:44 AM Post: #29
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
The Proposed

Here is an email I got from a company I follow on Twitter, that I also applied to, and like. So what we have here is as follows:

- I wouldn't get this email unless I am a member.
- It immediately connects with me. It identifies a real problem.
- It's funny
- It's short and easy

Quote:
Hey Matthew,

Remember that time you needed a new landing page?

And your developer was all, "I'm busy doing something nerdy" and your designer was all, "I'm making the Mona Lisa over here" and your boss was was all "ain't nobody got time for that."

Yeah, that was lame.

But you know what's not lame? Templates! Glorious, beautiful, landing page templates.

Because landing page templates mean your developer can keep coding and your designer can da Vinci your website...

...while you get beautiful new landing pages published and converting in no-time-flat.

So log in to Unbounce & check out the all-new, ultra-beautiful, high-converting landing page templates.

You'll love 'em.


The Alternative

Now let's compare that to watching television, or listening to the radio:

- Don't need the product in the first place
- Commercial is shitty/not your type
- Makes you mad
- Repetitive, which makes you even more mad


This shit matters. I sit here, day after day, taking in all this shit that I don't want to. And I have ad blocks and all this stuff up to the wazoo.


Technologies

Now imagine if when you listened to the radio, depending on your location and whatever, the commercials that you heard were tailored to what you like? That type of system is not impossible. It's not so much I am trying to make universally appealing ads - that is very hard - I am looking to revolutionize the industry from a logistical standpoint as much as possible.

But I do want to make as universally appealing commercials as possible.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-20-2013, 10:11 PM Post: #30
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art.

Sales should be the art of straight-forwardness. Instead, it acts like a fucking thing that wants to invade your life like that fucking episode of that show ChainOfBeing showed us. No man, tell me what ur selling and gtfo.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"



 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:09 pm

RE: Advertising
You are not reading what I am writing it seems.
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05-21-2013, 06:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 06:22 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #32
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RE: Advertising
You mean ads as communication, right? Without an agenda.
On the one hand I think it's still a vanity project - your self-valuing will always speak a different value than universal benevolence. You'll always be biased and thus antagonizing certain others. Still, if the intention is less consciously specific, you might effect better results, in terms of peoples free choice to either hear you or not.

We can bring a degree of freedom to advertising, separate of profi, the techniques of drawing the love of others for the sake of itself - "romancing the stone".

Even so it wil be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history - drawn broadly you can see the whole of civilization as a war of advertising campaigns. Statues, columns, incense, naked women talking gibberish, a crucifix, a 20th Century Fox intro, evocations of intuitions, One in so many men always knew how to speak that way, and when he did he was followed.

A key to the great campaigns is that they all did carry a rudimentary value to sell, something that could be milked, drawn out over time, emptied to the bottom, exploited. Empires fall when there's nothing new to advertise, no angle to the original power/glory that fed the kingdom its narrative-political sap.

Advertise with blood. How thin will your ads stretch reality?
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05-21-2013, 06:30 AM Post: #33
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RE: Advertising
Another thought is that between the ad-narratives of history, the conflict and absurd void between, them, that this 'sea of possibilities' can be excavated from its being-as-blurr(between logics) into "Form" ad-fundum.

Binah - Ah. Binah is the form that emerges most primordially out of force - instill forms into the nervous system, touch certain 'chords' of electrochemical timing, speak to 'cycles' - perpetuate certain 'happiness' -- and arrow, a goal --
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05-21-2013, 07:44 AM Post: #34
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RE: Advertising
Q, if I did understand your meaning, what kind of answer might I write?

I hope we are past suspecting sarcasm in each other.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 04:35 PM Post: #35
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Even so it will be hard to match and top the great campaigns of history

I think that we found ourselves in the realm of selling ideas. Whereas the Bernays stuff was more toward selling things.
Which is to say that, yes, communication is advertising.

Quote:
Without an agenda.

No. With an agenda, just a transparent one. For example, when you to go web page... Fundamentally, there isn't a lot of lying going on. You just get told what is up.


I know I am not explaining this very well. I will keep trying to do so, though. All I know is I am me, and I know all of you, and this is all based on our past experiences, but I don't see any moral qualm with working in advertising/marketing. Like I said, I think that it will always be around in some way or another. We sell and we buy. That's what we do in some way or another.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-21-2013, 05:32 PM Post: #36
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Oh, I don't see any moral problem with it either. My problem is stratego-philosophical. That's why I keep using the Meatrix comparison. "Moraly," if you must, Morpheous and Lock are on the same team.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #37
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art.

How is it really different than art?
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-21-2013, 06:14 PM Post: #38
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RE: Advertising
As Fixed Cross once wrote, it serves to stimulate the feeling that something interesting is going on, rather than give or move one toward any kind of actual real value. Self-valuing is manipulated, much in the same way that religion manipulates it -- co-opted the valuational mechanism and making it serve ends foreign and even self-destructive to it. If the self-valuing values accidentally or only partially, by assuming the standards of others as its own, it breeds in its own destruction.

This is the real problem with advertising, it is just another modern form of quasi-religious intoxication and insanity-manipulation. I agree with Q that advertising can and should be made more efficient, if we are speaking from within the modern paradigm itself, for of course this makes good sense. But seeing the whole picture, all you are doing is helping the system refine its tools, sharpen its fangs, and put even heavier locks on the doors of the self.

The world wants to imprison you. This is what the world "is", no "conspiracies" needed. Take religion, politics, economics, morality, advertising, you name it. Various systems used to breed various kinds of human beings. Just because your intention is to remove some impurities and excesses of one of these system does not mean your aim is in any way ethical or good, or is not merely assisting the behemoth in its task to devour you whole. Remember, if it doesn't need to chew quite so much, it's that much less effort it needs to bother with.

Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance. And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising. You seem to be clearly against the one, clearly in favor of the other (your idea of it) so where do you draw the difference? Advertising for Coca-Cola has probably killed more humans on this planet than any conflict or war in human history, and probably generated more concentrated wealth than any great colonization and spoils of war.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-21-2013, 06:17 PM Post: #39
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RE: Advertising
In the ideal, I mean.

It seems like being on the internet and advertising is the same thing in a manner of speaking.
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05-21-2013, 06:18 PM Post: #40
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Someone once said that true propaganda slips in without any resistance.

I am saying: let's make this a good thing.




RE: Advertising
Quote:
And you have not yet defined what you consider to be the distinction between propaganda and advertising.

I thought I explained this.

(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:

Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology.

(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.
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05-21-2013, 06:21 PM Post: #42
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RE: Advertising
I asked you earlier here toward what end/s you aim, and you replied, "Just for the sake of doing it."

What makes you think you are in any way qualified to decide what "good" is to be served here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-21-2013, 06:28 PM Post: #43
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RE: Advertising
Why is art made, though?

Just for the sake of doing it.
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05-21-2013, 08:48 PM Post: #44
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art.

How is it really different than art?

Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 08:49 PM Post: #45
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
And X = Oligarchic Power Interests in the most brutal way.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:51 PM by pezer.) Post: #46
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Much art is sneaky advertising, and that is what perhaps is known as propaganda. (Interesting fact, propaganda is the word for simple advertising in Spanish, the term propaganda política being used for what the simple word is used by gringos.)
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 08:55 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:57 PM by pezer.) Post: #47
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Propaganda comes from the verb propagar, -anda is like a kind of "of the." Propagar means to disseminate, pro- determinign action, movement, and pagar meaning to pay, to give something of value in exchange.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-22-2013, 01:26 AM Post: #48
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RE: Advertising
(05-20-2013 10:38 AM)Q Wrote:
The difference is as follows:

Propaganda — Exploiting a known weakness or tendency in someone, or a group of people's psychology.

(Proper) Advertising — Offering someone something that they may want, tailored to complement that psychology.


It's subtle, but it is there. I will give you an example.

(05-21-2013 08:48 PM)pezer Wrote:
(05-21-2013 06:06 PM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
Advertising is sales, and I don't trust a sales system based on the premise that it's fine to make shit up to fit your intended message (in advertising, usually shitty primal ones deemed whatever by the oligarchic order), like it's art.

How is it really different than art?

Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.


This is why I see it as both selling the same thing.






RE: Advertising
Advertising can pull at your heart? No shit!

I pointed out the difference. Now I feel you are avoiding an answer you didn't feel comfortable with.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-22-2013, 06:31 AM Post: #50
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
The show itself is a commercial.

Mad Men isn't selling anything other than itself, though.

It could all be like that. Seamless.

There isn't a difference between art and advertising that I can see. Not in theory. Obviously in demonstrable practice, but I am not talking about that.


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05-22-2013, 10:51 AM Post: #51
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
It seems like unless you are unfunded, all art is just a commercial. When you really look at it like I am trying to.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-22-2013, 11:38 AM Post: #52
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Listen, I get it. You want art to not be some pointless thing, to have weight. You see advertising as the way to do that. I'm saying that's a trap. Undoubtedly, taking a trap head on is often the best way to approach it, I'm just saying that if you make your weight out of these pre-made societal structures, you are taking on a whole bunch of "lizard kings rolling in the back, how 'bout that?" I'm saying fuck that, let's rebuild. In the end, if you need help for your wacky shit, I will give it. Likewise, maybe you will help me along my more nihilistic path.

Difference is the pathos of true evolutionary process.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-22-2013, 05:11 PM Post: #53
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RE: Advertising
Maybe this is one of those 'is Gotham beyond saving' things, but I'm not totally against society. Just the bankers and corporations that are tying to pull a fast one.

Plus, when I really think about how to affect large-scale change, it's one of those infiltrate from the inside plans always. I'm just not the nihilistic type.
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05-22-2013, 06:06 PM Post: #54
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
So what is the approach of your vision to reinterpret advertising? Can it be compatible with non-government?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-23-2013, 02:01 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 02:03 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #55
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RE: Advertising
There is a huge difference between art, in particular inspired/authentic art or "art pour l'art" and advertising. Advertising wants to manipulate to sell something, to insert lies inside the mind toward some goal that has nothing to do with whatever is good or bad for the victim of the ad. Art rather wants to show and disclose truth, even if this truth is painful or harmful. Often it is not, and even so disclosing suffering and harmful truth through art will lead to mental and emotional uplift and increased self-consciousness. The perspectives and experiences created by art are done from and for the interests of truth, whereas those created by advertising are done not in the interest of truth but in the interest of control. Q, what you may be seeing is the degree of overlap between truth and manipulative control, of course there is some overlap here. But the real spheres of art and advertising are separate, and only intersect a little in the middle, when advertising wants to mimic art to make its control more effective.

This is why advertising is no different from propaganda. Advertising is not art, it is propaganda, trying to sell something regardless of what the victim needs or wants. No one forces art at you, or its message, these must be approached actively and openly and with some conscious intention. Not so with advertising, which shoves its message and image upon you rather you want it or not.

Art cares about you, and values truth. That is why the art exists at all. What does advertising care about and value? Profit, to control and manipulation to create consumers of products. Q, you want to make advertising more like art in this respect, but you cannot succeed, all you can do is give advertising better tools with which to better mimic art, thus making advertising even more effective and deadly. Further contributing to human's inability to tell the difference for themselves.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-23-2013, 05:52 AM Post: #56
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RE: Advertising
We're all online...

Is the type of art you talk about possible anymore?
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-23-2013, 05:53 AM Post: #57
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RE: Advertising
Think of it in a Marxian sense.

It's all money.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-23-2013, 06:44 AM Post: #58
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RE: Advertising
Surely you are not claiming that real art is not being done anymore.

I would not even know how to respond to such an absurd claim.
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05-23-2013, 10:33 AM Post: #59
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RE: Advertising
Sure it's being done offline in caves maybe.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-23-2013, 10:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2013 10:52 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #60
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RE: Advertising
Today even artists using traditional media like canvas put a lot of their work online. Also people create new digital art, just for the sake of art and not because it is part of any ad campaign.

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to say here, it seems Pezer was right that you are just trying to avoid an uncomfortable reality.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-23-2013, 11:04 AM Post: #61
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RE: Advertising
Lol
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05-23-2013, 12:42 PM Post: #62
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RE: Advertising
What do you guys say to the Marx point?
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05-24-2013, 08:51 AM Post: #63
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RE: Advertising
Cause it's a pretty old argument.

I am not the first one to look at art critically. I'm not the first one to call into question this Dreamboat conception you have of it.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-24-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #64
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RE: Advertising
Dont bitch around, Q has hold of the most vital part of Earthly power... And he wants to humanize it, naturalizr it. Superhymanize, perhaps. All of us already know the power and the downside of that. Q is looking for an upside.

There is none' is not a vital answer.
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05-24-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #65
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RE: Advertising
I have failed to really convey the entirety of this, but it is actually a cynical enough approach for you cynics. I recognize the underlying drives in people (and masses), and I am looking to use it.

Let's drop the aesthetics talk and just recognize that for a second. With Netflix, YouTube, and just the net in general, there is a marketing/advertising revolution occurring.
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05-24-2013, 12:49 PM Post: #66
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RE: Advertising
Let's advertise the future.




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05-24-2013, 12:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-24-2013 12:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #67
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RE: Advertising
coming soon:
THE FUTURE

Get tickets NOW at NWO

It shouldn't be hard to top that pitch. But it's going to be hard to pitch it so that humanity will attain the state of mind conductive of a future we can approve of.
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05-25-2013, 01:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 01:21 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #68
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RE: Advertising
This so called great power is the tyrannical manipulation and subvert control that reduces man to a passive consumer, an unthinking zombie. The argument of course can be made that man has already been reduced thusly, and who is to say that even before the advent of advertising that man was not in such an unawakened state? (Of course he was). But, my concern here had been with the telos of this intention to grab this power, to change it, to apply it. Toward what ends do you aim?

Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child. Intending something "good" only means one has matured slightly if there is a firm understanding of what "good" really means, and of course even if this is the case one is still but a dangerous and ignorant adolescent if one has no real knowledge or skill with how to apply a method to direct and use this power. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as we know.

I was interested to discover the motives behind the aim. More so, too, to discover the source and substance of these motives, and rather they be informed by any means and maturity regardless of their "goodness". One only need look to the Stanford Prison Study to learn mankind's natural inclination to "good will" under having been granted near-absolute power over his brothers. No "natural" will can serve us here, not where the direct, potent and often invisible manipulations of mankind are concerned. Neither will a will to power serve us at this juncture, contrary to what Nietzsche wrote. Nietzsche did not live in an age where the tools and weapons were so easily able to be picked up and wielded by quite literally anybody.

What we have now is all out warfare of ideas, control, dogma, brainwashing, but unlike in the past many "uninitiated" masses of men now play the game. As I wrote, they are made to kill each other without any need for a third party. You are so eager to jump into the trenches as get your hands dirty with them? I would rather undermine the system as a whole, I would rather cultivate something worthy of going beyond this merely animal hell, than deceive myself that I can play this game as good or better than those who have been mastering it for the last 80 years.

First, I propose we analyze a series of essential questions concerned with refining not only our sight but also out taste, from both directions, if indeed your will is to play the game on their own terms. Like Pezer I am more of an anarchist here, but since you are set on your path, let us try and cull something of greater potential from this path.

1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads?
2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create
3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-25-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #69
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Merely playing with this power for the sake of play, for the fun of it, represents the lowest kind of aspiration, like that of a child.

FX, tell him.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-25-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:07 AM by Q.) Post: #70
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RE: Advertising
As for the rest, as I have said, it's not about the content so much as the relevance of the ads.

You keep missing my point. It's not about what I am writing. It's about changing the method of distribution so you don't have the situation where people are zombied through ads they don't care about.

The stuff I said about wanting to manipulate people's minds, just forget about. It's true, but those are not my aspirations. I, as a culture critic, have come to just see most people as wanting to be manipuated.
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:13 pm

RE: Advertising
The difference between less targeted and more targeted advertising is quite insignificant when it comes to the damage done by advertising, which part is connected to "unconscious-ifying" man will only grow that much stronger the more you embed your ads into a person's already-held values and ideas.

Targeted advertising is like a smart bomb or a drone strike, compared with traditional ads that are more like a blanket carpet bombing. Either way much death is dealt out. I guess the best that can be said of your aim is that you may reduce marginally the collateral damage- too bad the system as a whole is and aims to e as near-universal as possible, so that gain amounts to practically nothing.

A smart bomb for every person, tailored to their specific constitution, beliefs, fears and desires. And you are oh so proud to be one of the lead engineers on the project.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-25-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:31 AM by Fixed Cross.)  Post: #72
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RE: Advertising
The point about the child Q wanted me to address is, I suppose, the point that the aspiration of the child is considered by the philosophers I admire to be the highest form of aspiration, and play the highest form of being.

But more generally - ChainOfBeing, you have not given a clear ground for your assertion that advertising is damaging. Why would it be necessarily damaging to influence people using their unconscious drives? I really am at loss there.
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05-25-2013, 07:02 AM  Post: #73
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RE: Advertising
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of. Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads. In the end this is about making money and power by turning people into un-thoughtful consumers whose instincts are used against them and without their knowledge or consent to do things that tend to be detrimental to their health. Such as eating poisonous foods, drinking processed corn syrup, watching brainwashing TV programs, participating mindlessly in the political "process" by aligning passively with a pre-made and sanitized ideological platform, and more or less participating in the capitalist system of over-production and over-consumption which causes unhealth to the individual, his society and his environment.

More specifically advertising is part of the wider phenomenon that contributes to turning people's consciousness' into passive receivers of content and feelings/beliefs and discourages and destroys their ability to think and feel for themselves. The "goal" or rather the end result is a man who lives most of his life externally, dependently, passively and intellectually uncritically.

In short, advertising dehumanizes man by treating him like a mere animal, by appealing to and controlling his lower instincts, by clouding his mind with vagaries, obsessions, fantasies and insanities. Divorce of self from self, self from other, self from society, self from history, self from nature. And all the while the capitalist machine of exponential growth and over-consumption, waste and war keeps turning, lining the pockets of the ad-producers with more cash than we could possibly imagine.

Now, you see no problem with any of this?




I am surprised neither of you picked up on the potential of advertising the future. Pezer and JSS must surely see the merit of this concept.

The question you should have asked is: advertizing which future?
Zarathustra was an advertisement for the future. It 'tantalizes' - where the quenched wells of desire for reality disentangle from the false idea of  and focus anew - this time on what is really going to happen.

The structure of the add plays to the survivalist instinct (opposite the current Bernaysean structure) whereas the texture plays to the love of what is an can be.

We can advertise Need with an urgency equal to what once was produced by advertising desire. A full century has passed since the first craziness erupted, since the first globalist ideologies began to scratch the surface of what they would soon begin to sink their entire weight into.

Desire culture brought about peaceful nihilism - the capacity in man to enjoy his meaninglessnes. But this has been exhausted in quite a few of us. The question has always been one of strength. Theory is nothing without the will to implement it as ideology.

Advertisement is the attempt at objectification of ones own values.
If the powerful in spirit are too "good" to perform a manipulative, "selfish" acts to advance their perspective's power, then they will lose to lesser minds, succumb to impurer aims -

In the thousands of advertisements I have produced, I found only value, rearranging that value to appear precisely what it aspires to be.

Strength and backbone - if you have these there is no reason to fear the chaotic bondage-creating freedom of advertising. There is, after all, real value to be shared.

Perhaps Q's idea here is comparable to the Sun -- advertising only in compelling it's beneficiaries of its generosity to adjust themselves to its radiance - like Sunflowers - so shall our customers (what once was 'disciples') be - wholesome and thriving, moving to the glamour of the all-giving source.

The click that goes when an ad sticks is a lock on a valency-field. Whether the product delivers on the promise is only a question if the promise does not include the value.



Somewhere in this text I needed to insert a .




...............................




RE: Advertising
(05-25-2013 07:02 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:  
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of.

Humanity needs to be guided.
We can either lose the globe to a few quite smart assholes while we're trying to get everyone to think, or abstract thinkers can form an alliance with practical thinkers and together guide the rest.

Quote:
Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche,

That entirely depends.

Quote:
reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads.

Entirely untrue. It can do whatever it likes. It can confuse, cause a seeking instinct, create love, breed repulsion, and simply educate.

It only follows that the best way to make profit from it is the way in which most money is invested. But if we do not aim to make money, this is not even close to becoming a risk. The medium is far too compelling to be interested in money.

In the work I've done, I've only been honest, and been very successful in bringing people to reason. If an idea or an event or an object is brought to bear in the full glory it once held in the mind of its creator, there is no manipulation, there is radiance.

Manipulation - Moon - Drawing In Unconsciously - Desire - Dependence
Radiance - Sun - Clarity of Intent - Necessity ("Need" or "Will"? determinist question) - Force

etc.

Quote:
In the end this is about making money and power by turning people into un-thoughtful consumers whose instincts are used against them and without their knowledge or consent to do things that tend to be detrimental to their health. Such as eating poisonous foods, drinking processed corn syrup, watching brainwashing TV programs, participating mindlessly in the political "process" by aligning passively with a pre-made and sanitized ideological platform, and more or less participating in the capitalist system of over-production and over-consumption which causes unhealth to the individual, his society and his environment.

This only pertains to specific campaigns.
I am not going to advertise rubbish knowing it's rubbish.
In a blip: the future is not poisonous.

Quote:
More specifically advertising is part of the wider phenomenon that contributes to turning people's consciousness' into passive receivers of content and feelings/beliefs and discourages and destroys their ability to think and feel for themselves. The "goal" or rather the end result is a man who lives most of his life externally, dependently, passively and intellectually uncritically.

Again, a generalization. The Greek temples were advertisements for the imagined Gods. These Gods compelled people to try to live up to superhuman standards.

Quote:
In short, advertising dehumanizes man by treating him like a mere animal, by appealing to and controlling his lower instincts, by clouding his mind with vagaries, obsessions, fantasies and insanities. Divorce of self from self, self from other, self from society, self from history, self from nature. And all the while the capitalist machine of exponential growth and over-consumption, waste and war keeps turning, lining the pockets of the ad-producers with more cash than we could possibly imagine.

Now, you see no problem with any of this?

I don't think you actually think you need to lecture me on the effects of advertising in the hands of who now wield the tool. You are avoiding the real issue: the instrument itself.
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05-25-2013, 09:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 09:24 AM by ChainOfBeing.)  Post: #76
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RE: Advertising
So at issue here is that you agree with Q as to the lack of distinction between art and advertising. You see advertising as art, art as advertising, "It can... cause a seeking instinct, create love, breed repulsion, and simply educate." I disagree. There is a marked difference between the technique and effect of education or of art and the technique and effect of advertising. Quite simple, advertising disrespects its recipient through the direct manipulative aim, which is appeal to the lower drives. Advertising and marketing today is entirely fixed on how most efficiently to manipulate the receiver's feelings and ideas, and through this their buying habits.

You are talking about using advertising to serve education and art. I do not think that is possible, because one can and does simple serve education and art as they are, after their own nature. Advertising as such is not needed and due to its quite different methodology and effect upon the recipient, would be detrimental toward the ends of education and art.

The basic disagreement, however, is that I am looking at the nature of advertising as it IS, right now in this world, and you are looking at the nature of what it could be through your idea of how to alter its content, and perhaps its form as well. I have yet to see any specifics on how Q or yourself would modify advertising to these ends you speak of. In fact, this was the whole point of my asking these following questions of Q, that I assume the potentiality of your aim and thus am interested to see rather or not Q is worthy of this potential. You will notice that these questions I asked of him have so far gone unanswered.

1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads?
2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create
3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?

(05-25-2013 07:32 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:  
(05-25-2013 07:02 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:  
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of.

Humanity needs to be guided.
We can either lose the globe to a few quite smart assholes while we're trying to get everyone to think, or abstract thinkers can form an alliance with practical thinkers and together guide the rest.

Who owns the media through which you plan to advertise your counter-movement against these assholes? The assholes own it. Nearly every media outlet that has any viability is controlled directly or indirectly by vested interests. So how do you plan to fight the system when the system has the ability to censor, repress, edit or shut off completely your own content? I see the problem of over-centralization of global multinational power getting worse with time, not better. Monopolies are more common than ever, especially in the media world.

Maybe you plan to start small, the local paper, a Youtube channel, maybe start a blog or your own website like NWO. Sure, that's great, I honestly say you should go for it. But I would ask you to as honestly consider how much of an effect you really think this is going to have in a world with Viacom, Time Warner, Disney, CBS, News Corporation, Comcast, Facebook and Google controlling 99% of the market. And as I said, I see it getting worse, not better.

So I guess I am not disagreeing with your intention, but I want specifics as to how you plan to implement your goals. For better or worse I am incapable of entertaining impossible or unrealistic hope. Believe me, I have tried many times, and failed miserably. I am at heart a bitter pragmatist, despite that the aspiration of my theory reaches for the stars. I want truly to believe in your power here, but until I can see something convincing, rational and reasonable, I have no choice but to see it merely as fruitless fantasy.

Again, why has Q not addressed my seven questions? These more than anything get to the real heart of the problem here. I want to see the answers to those questions because it will tell me a lot about the nature of his 'struggle'.

Quote:
Quote:
Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche,

That entirely depends.

Well this is what advertising is, at heart. It is manipulation designed to sell something. This differs from education in the following ways: Education intends to produce change through rational presentation of accurate information. Education treats the recipient as a rational being with the ability to learn truth if given access to all the relevant facts on a matter. The goal of education is to produce truth, accurate information, whereas the goal of advertising is to alter behavior in a way that benefits the makers of the ads. Granted, a lot of education has become propagandized, but this only proves my point about the difference between education and advertising.

Quote:
Quote:
reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads.

Entirely untrue. It can do whatever it likes. It can confuse, cause a seeking instinct, create love, breed repulsion, and simply educate.

It only follows that the best way to make profit from it is the way in which most money is invested. But if we do not aim to make money, this is not even close to becoming a risk. The medium is far too compelling to be interested in money.

In the work I've done, I've only been honest, and been very successful in bringing people to reason. If an idea or an event or an object is brought to bear in the full glory it once held in the mind of its creator, there is no manipulation, there is radiance.

Manipulation - Moon - Drawing In Unconsciously - Desire - Dependence
Radiance - Sun - Clarity of Intent - Necessity ("Need" or "Will"? determinist question) - Force

etc.

Then I argue that what you are doing is not creating advertising, you are creating art that is intended to educate. This is noble. Your art is very different in nature from advertising, then.

If you intent to use unconscious manipulation to achieve your ends, all you are doing is weakening those whom you intend to strengthen. You cannot treat a human being like a domesticated pet and expect it to experience some sort of intellectual or spiritual uplift. You cannot expect a mass of mindlessly passive drones to be anything but a mass of mindlessly passive drones, no matter what high level of noble content you intent to shove into their heads.

May I see some examples of the ads you have created?

Quote:
Quote:
In the end this is about making money and power by turning people into un-thoughtful consumers whose instincts are used against them and without their knowledge or consent to do things that tend to be detrimental to their health. Such as eating poisonous foods, drinking processed corn syrup, watching brainwashing TV programs, participating mindlessly in the political "process" by aligning passively with a pre-made and sanitized ideological platform, and more or less participating in the capitalist system of over-production and over-consumption which causes unhealth to the individual, his society and his environment.

This only pertains to specific campaigns.
I am not going to advertise rubbish knowing it's rubbish.
In a blip: the future is not poisonous.

Please share your evidence/reasons with me. I will be completely honest here, I have seen absolutely no reason to agree with you on this, "the future is not poisonous". I want you to convince me.

Quote:
Quote:
More specifically advertising is part of the wider phenomenon that contributes to turning people's consciousness' into passive receivers of content and feelings/beliefs and discourages and destroys their ability to think and feel for themselves. The "goal" or rather the end result is a man who lives most of his life externally, dependently, passively and intellectually uncritically.

Again, a generalization. The Greek temples were advertisements for the imagined Gods. These Gods compelled people to try to live up to superhuman standards.

Yes, and the deception led all the way to Christian decadence, and necessarily so, and continues to this day. No doubt that we owe tremendous debt to the Greeks, but they had no choice except to mystify conscious experience because they were the first to discover it, they had to make use of the tools that were laying around. Are we still stuck in their deplorably small reality? No, we have inherited an entire mass of culture and tools with which to engage the mind directly, honestly and openly. That is all I am asking for. If this is how you view advertising then we are not disagreeing here, except on the fact that I do not believe advertising is capable of directly, honestly and openly engaging the mind.

You are drawing the distinction between education and propaganda in a very concrete and "deep" way, which I admire. But I have no reason yet to see how this distinction which you draw bears a resemblance to reality as we know it. What makes you think that your sort of advertising will be more effective than the current form of manipulation, brainwashing and death?

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In short, advertising dehumanizes man by treating him like a mere animal, by appealing to and controlling his lower instincts, by clouding his mind with vagaries, obsessions, fantasies and insanities. Divorce of self from self, self from other, self from society, self from history, self from nature. And all the while the capitalist machine of exponential growth and over-consumption, waste and war keeps turning, lining the pockets of the ad-producers with more cash than we could possibly imagine.

Now, you see no problem with any of this?

I don't think you actually think you need to lecture me on the effects of advertising in the hands of who now wield the tool. You are avoiding the real issue: the instrument itself.

I believe that the instrument and the end-result are intimately connected. Why has the modern world of the last 100 years differed so drastically from what has come before, if advertising is merely, at the level of instrument, no different from education or art? I think the instrument is very, very different.

If you want to revolutionize advertising in the way you state, this is an excellent goal. I do not dispute this. But if you believe you can revolutionize it from the inside, making use of the very same instruments and media and distribution systems as currently push the global advertising insanity and death-machine, I entirely disagree. I also disagree that your own counter-movement, however you plan to carry it out, is able to pose any serious threat to the established order, but this is only because so far I have seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise.

Have either you or Q given real concrete examples here yet? Maybe I missed them, I am very interested in seeing specifically what sort of "advertising" you and Q mean. Again, the questions I designed for Q to really target the substance behind these claims have so far gone unanswered.
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05-25-2013, 11:07 AM  Post: #77
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RE: Advertising
OK. It's the weekend. I have some time. Let's do this.

Quote:
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of. Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads.

Yes. This is correct. That is to say, advertising is a crazy powerful force.

That is the specific reason why I want to try and change it. Right now, it's too powerful, and the very act of selling is something that we can't escape.

So, if we can't escape selling, we have to change how it is done. That is what I am saying. If you can find me a way around the above, then I would love to hear it.

If you have some way where we don't need to sell stuff, then let's do that for sure.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-25-2013, 11:10 AM  Post: #78
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Have either you or Q given real concrete examples here yet? Maybe I missed them, I am very interested in seeing specifically what sort of "advertising" you and Q mean. Again, the questions I designed for Q to really target the substance behind these claims have so far gone unanswered.

You keep asking me for an example of an advertisement. That is kind of missing the point, but I gave you Mad Men. A show that is a commercial. How cool would that be?

To me, what you are saying is all true, but we're talking past each other.

There will always be selling - start with that. I think you will find that a lot of what you said is irrelevant when you consider advertising is going to happen. The question is: how?

I will get into Google Glass tonight.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-25-2013, 04:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 04:13 PM by pezer.)  Post: #79
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RE: Advertising
My thing is this: like ChainOfBeing, I need to hear specifics on this thing, in my case because I know of absolute geniouses of the past that have done similar centralized-power work to incredible detriment of the human spirits.

Defeatism is only an unrecognized Hail Mary, to use sports parlance. Anarchy is very well documented. Maybe not as well or completely as advertisement, and with almost as many christian moles, but enough that you can tell what our plan is as opposed to advertisement.

Fixed Cross mentioned the worldly impotence of a-sexual philosophy. Anarchism is philosophy, and all the sex has been taken out of it as well as out of every thing else that isn't what we are permitted to sexualize through advertisement. This is why I mentioned Neo, and ChainOfBeing seems to get this point: you are literally aiming to use the evil machine to subdue itself. We both admire you, but I personally think that doing any kind of from-withinism is tantamount to a revolution without dance. To live a miserable life of embedded secret warfare, all so our children can have nicer lives or, in any case, to to the benefit of humans other than us.

This is why I am a philosopher of evolution, a non-philosopher. Because I understand, love and accept that every step from point intention to point goal must legitimize itself. No paws without fins, no hands without paws. I also understand that the food of a thing, the chemical precedents, are unique and entirely historical. It matters that you are aligning yourself with the historical fascists. You have to legitimize this.

If you eat enough carrot straight, you start turning orange, though your goal might have been simply to be healthy.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-25-2013, 05:13 PM  Post: #80
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RE: Advertising
Why does it have to be miserable, though? If I move out to some farm and the world gets taken over, how is that constant fear of being killed for no reason by some rogue army or something any better?

I don't mind doing work so that others can benefit. We're all here for a reason, my friend. I have the distinct feeling I have been on this earth many times before 'having fun.' Now it may be time to put in some actual work.

I want to do something grandiose. It may end up being writing a novel, or something else, but it might be something like what I am talking about here. I don't know.

At end of the day, I am a big nerd and I love solving huge problems. I don't know if I would be satisfied living on some farm, eating right, and just being happy, or whatever anarchists want to do. I don't mind structure and all that stuff. Like I said, I just think there is a cancerous pocket of people holding everyone down. Without them, I think you would all like society way better.

It's too bad we're not training to be assassins. Or are we?




RE: Advertising
Quote:
Perhaps Q's idea here is comparable to the Sun -- advertising only in compelling it's beneficiaries of its generosity to adjust themselves to its radiance - like Sunflowers - so shall our customers (what once was 'disciples') be - wholesome and thriving, moving to the glamour of the all-giving source.

Yes I like this.

Advertising wasn't chosen - and it was chosen - because I want to be cool and be down on Madison Ave. It's because it's kind of like FX said, the sun: the source of light that drives society. That and art, and one could argue the life of an artist is a fucking hellish grind that may or may not pay off. And what are you doing it for? So that some artists can watch it again later? Cool man. It's worse than advertising in many ways. And I love art. I wrote like 2 novels, and I plan to write another one, and hopefully be successful and say something in that venue as well. But I don't want to bank on being an artist when I know that it's a huge gamble.

I am a man of patience, and planning.

This is my design.
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-25-2013, 05:24 PM  Post: #82
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
because I know of absolute geniouses of the past that have done similar centralized-power work to incredible detriment of the human spirits.

Do tell.

We love a good power aspiration story.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-25-2013, 06:29 PM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 07:06 PM by pezer.)  Post: #83
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RE: Advertising
Anarchism is not retiring from public space, it aims for a level of human activity and cooperation that nullifies the necessity for a governing body to tell you what to do, including the extra-official ones.

But we're not talking about anarchism here. Are we? That's why my question was whether your idea of advertisement is compatible with it. I don't mind perversion and deep hipocritical betrayals, sometimes that's how you win and come out clean. I am an anarchist living off of a lawyer whose livelyhood depends on the poor's constant awareness that they will be shot if they revolutionize the system that keeps me moneyed. I am going to get a job teaching English, teaching the world Imperial language and recieving money, the ultimate dehumanizer. I am doing it because fuck you, I know what I'm doing. The question is, as you betray yourself and all of us by joining the fascists in your own little way, or grandiose way too, do you know what you are doing?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-25-2013, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 05-25-2013 06:42 PM by pezer.)  Post: #84
pezer  Offline
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RE: Advertising
(05-25-2013 05:24 PM)Q Wrote:  
Quote:
because I know of absolute geniouses of the past that have done similar centralized-power work to incredible detriment of the human spirits.

Do tell.

We love a good power aspiration story.

Da Vinci revolutionized War Terror

Plato invented Fascism

Machiavelly taught mediocre men to subdue

Buddha taught us to stop wanting

Russeau trapped us all in burocratic hell

Steve Jobs made humanity that much more dumb and uninspired

J.B. Watson turned confused monkeys into obedient dogs

Tolstoi convinced innumerable anarchists that christian morality stands behind anarchism

There's much, much much muchmuchmuchmichuchu more.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-26-2013, 02:15 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 02:20 AM by Fixed Cross.)  Post: #85
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RE: Advertising
(05-25-2013 09:04 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:  
So at issue here is that you agree with Q as to the lack of distinction between art and advertising. You see advertising as art, art as advertising, "It can... cause a seeking instinct, create love, breed repulsion, and simply educate." I disagree. There is a marked difference between the technique and effect of education or of art and the technique and effect of advertising. Quite simple, advertising disrespects its recipient through the direct manipulative aim, which is appeal to the lower drives. Advertising and marketing today is entirely fixed on how most efficiently to manipulate the receiver's feelings and ideas, and through this their buying habits.

You are talking about using advertising to serve education and art. I do not think that is possible, because one can and does simple serve education and art as they are, after their own nature. Advertising as such is not needed and due to its quite different methodology and effect upon the recipient, would be detrimental toward the ends of education and art.

What do you think of Picasso's Guernica?
To me that's an advertisement, pure and simple. But it's also art.
It's art in the way the best ads are art - created by artists using the best of their skill to sell a product or message.

Now it's not my favorite type of art, nor my favorite type of ad. What's better to me is Star Wars, which transformed the public and commercial mindset more than perhaps any work of art in the past century has done. What did it advertise? "A New Hope".

Did it brainwash? I don't think so, it inspired.
Was it meant to advertise? No, it was storytelling and money making. But it needed to draw on the same nature as an ad does, and stimulated man in quite the same way.

Terminator 2 may be seen as an "informercial" - we're seeing right now that what is presented there is in the process of being implemented.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:14 pm

The basic disagreement, however, is that I am looking at the nature of advertising as it IS, right now in this world, and you are looking at the nature of what it could be through your idea of how to alter its content, and perhaps its form as well. I have yet to see any specifics on how Q or yourself would modify advertising to these ends you speak of. In fact, this was the whole point of my asking these following questions of Q, that I assume the potentiality of your aim and thus am interested to see rather or not Q is worthy of this potential. You will notice that these questions I asked of him have so far gone unanswered.

Fair enough. I'd like to add that I see the "as is" in a wider frame, but that follows from what I've written above.

Let me try to answer the questions as I see fit.

1) upon what do you draw when crafting your "improved" ads?
-This is a bit general, not quite sure what you mean.

2) what is man's relationship to the ads you create
-His libido is activated and stirring his mind.

3) for whom do you work/receive pay in creating ads?
-For no one, the ads aren't made to make money. They'd have to be a 'pro bono' thing for starters. Eventually organizations and companies that have interest in them might jump in - organizations that work to advance health and sanity, break the monopoly of disease and madness.

4) do you have mechanisms in place to evaluate the effectiveness of your ads?
-Only observing a changing mindset in the environment where they'e disseminated would count.

5) if yes to 4 above, what are the standards you use to evaluate effectiveness or lack of effectiveness?
-People taking control is the only mark of effectiveness.

6) where do you most realistically see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
-He could just become a total slave, schizofrenic, torn between libido and conscience, between passion and reason. This means a resentful man, hating what he is, unable to address the cause of what he hates about himself because it is what fuels all his actions.

7) where do you want to see man in 50 years from now, relative to what you think the potential is for your advertising power to contribute toward this future?
-He has somewhat bridged the gap between his libido and his mind, meaning he is less able to be manipulated through his libido. Meaning: he has been trained somewhat to 'test the origin of the stimulus'.

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Who owns the media through which you plan to advertise your counter-movement against these assholes? The assholes own it. Nearly every media outlet that has any viability is controlled directly or indirectly by vested interests. So how do you plan to fight the system when the system has the ability to censor, repress, edit or shut off completely your own content? I see the problem of over-centralization of global multinational power getting worse with time, not better. Monopolies are more common than ever, especially in the media world.

Honestly, I simply refuse to be certain about what I do not know. The 'machine' is at this point still manned by humans, and these are all liabilities, uncertainties. Millions of people man the various machines, and all of them can be influenced.

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Maybe you plan to start small, the local paper, a Youtube channel, maybe start a blog or your own website like NWO. Sure, that's great, I honestly say you should go for it. But I would ask you to as honestly consider how much of an effect you really think this is going to have in a world with Viacom, Time Warner, Disney, CBS, News Corporation, Comcast, Facebook and Google controlling 99% of the market. And as I said, I see it getting worse, not better.

The biggest direct audience (as opposed to repeated airings) I've had is a show on Dutch national television. It was the thing about Islam, which was quite simply an advertisement for an agenda I had chosen. I may no longer agree with that agenda but it was wholly conceived by me and undiluted. When the company began trying to dilute it, I quit. That lasted for about three months.

I'm saying basically you can get around company agenda if you're smart enough to camouflage the effect/intent with something that appears attractive in general, that 'sells'.

I do not see a monolithic conscience of oppression - just a general trend. The trend, I believe, can be broken. Gradually, bit by bit and perhaps only for segments of the population. Doing this is 'fun' - that is the magic ingredient why it could work - it is not a morose, grudging undertaking, but something that would become addictive fo r an increasing number of people.

Just like life is addictive, 'stupid', stimulated by libido and confusion.

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So I guess I am not disagreeing with your intention, but I want specifics as to how you plan to implement your goals. For better or worse I am incapable of entertaining impossible or unrealistic hope. Believe me, I have tried many times, and failed miserably. I am at heart a bitter pragmatist, despite that the aspiration of my theory reaches for the stars. I want truly to believe in your power here, but until I can see something convincing, rational and reasonable, I have no choice but to see it merely as fruitless fantasy.

Very fair. And I can not prove it to you. I have some very specific plans but I am not going to write them down here. It comes down to the fact that, with what man is able to do today, I see vast potential for attainable glory, sanity and upward motion, and think I discovered some of the keys to such a movement. I would need a significant bit of capital to really get this off the ground... but I am far from hopeless in this regard.

Quote:
Again, why has Q not addressed my seven questions? These more than anything get to the real heart of the problem here. I want to see the answers to those questions because it will tell me a lot about the nature of his 'struggle'.

They're difficult questions, for sure.

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Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche,
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Well this is what advertising is, at heart. It is manipulation designed to sell something.

It's a manipulation designed to draw the attention, to fixate the self-valuing on something it thinks may add to it. Perhaps the most dangerous tool there is, yes. But does nature itself not advertise? A female praying mantice advertises sex but sells death. It is not a new phenomenon, and in many cases it works out better than for the male praying mantice.

Quote:
This differs from education in the following ways: Education intends to produce change through rational presentation of accurate information. Education treats the recipient as a rational being with the ability to learn truth if given access to all the relevant facts on a matter. The goal of education is to produce truth, accurate information, whereas the goal of advertising is to alter behavior in a way that benefits the makers of the ads. Granted, a lot of education has become propagandized, but this only proves my point about the difference between education and advertising.

Under no circumstances will I say that advertising must take the place of education, or can assimilate its function. I want advertising to steer toward the sort of mindset that values clarity.

Quote:
I argue that what you are doing is not creating advertising, you are creating art that is intended to educate. This is noble. Your art is very different in nature from advertising, then.

If you intent to use unconscious manipulation to achieve your ends, all you are doing is weakening those whom you intend to strengthen. You cannot treat a human being like a domesticated pet and expect it to experience some sort of intellectual or spiritual uplift. You cannot expect a mass of mindlessly passive drones to be anything but a mass of mindlessly passive drones, no matter what high level of noble content you intent to shove into their heads.

The passivity is bred by separating what JSS calls awareness of hopes and threats from actual hopes and threats. But this is not implicit in the method of advertising. It's a chosen course.

As man is imperfect in the literal sense, -incomplete - he continues to require 'agents' to perfect himself, or to advance. Do you agree to this?

Quote:
May I see some examples of the ads you have created?

I never valued any of them enough to keep them - they were all for the tv station I worked for. I was usually given the assignment to produce the ads and promo's - it is a government funded station with no real commercial interests, so I was given a lot of freedom and the content sold was really very harmless. They would often rely on me to make harmless things look 'sexy' or at least suggest some kind of thrill.

Then I did some advertising of projects like the film "We feed the world", basically a campaign against genetically manipulated foods, and for some other non profit, idealistic projects, trailers, basically. Many of the 'thousands of ads' I made were trailers or promo's for other material. I rarely made ads for real 'products', although I did create ads for things like bars and clubs at one point.

All of these things don't sell anything that's not there. I developed a lot of ideas for product-ads, some of which were actually used later on for these products (it's very strange, it's like when you think of something it gets 'out there' and gets picked up - I've had ideas for movies that would appear, diluted, in cinema's a couple of years later).

It's safe to say that I was exaggerating my output - in most of these thousands of ads/promo's for the tv station I just did the editing - but that is where the desire is created, and that is what I was occupied with. I have a lot of potential in this field - but since I will immediately vomit once I find myself in the process of professionally telling an unwholesome lie, this potential doesn't fit the machine.

For this reason (the potential) I relish in the thought of Q's intention. It is a theme that has been on my mind for more than a decade. I very vividly see the kind of future I would like to advertise. But I am not in the position to do that just yet - I only want to advertise it if I have the potential to realize at least part of it.

Quote:
Quote:
In a blip: the future is not poisonous.

Please share your evidence/reasons with me. I will be completely honest here, I have seen absolutely no reason to agree with you on this, "the future is not poisonous". I want you to convince me.

There's the thing - I can not possibly provide a factual basis for this. I can only create the ideal, as a point in time for man to orient on - a new star to navigate by. to even just allow for the direction, to allow man to make certain steps - to open up a 'valency rhizome' simply by disclosing certain yearnings... to connect the libido to truly wholesome perspectives... all of this I see embedded as potential in the craft of advertising. But I certainly agree that another name may be appropriate to distinguish it from 'selling'.

Quote:
Quote:
The Greek temples were advertisements for the imagined Gods. These Gods compelled people to try to live up to superhuman standards.

Yes, and the deception led all the way to Christian decadence, and necessarily so, and continues to this day. No doubt that we owe tremendous debt to the Greeks, but they had no choice except to mystify conscious experience because they were the first to discover it, they had to make use of the tools that were laying around. Are we still stuck in their deplorably small reality? No, we have inherited an entire mass of culture and tools with which to engage the mind directly, honestly and openly. That is all I am asking for. If this is how you view advertising then we are not disagreeing here, except on the fact that I do not believe advertising is capable of directly, honestly and openly engaging the mind.

I agree - it only engages the libido, it produces drives. What I aim for is that the libido is engaged toward engaging the mind.

It's like what JSS proposes for a film about RM. The narrative must 'seduce' the viewer to consider the logics.

Quote:
You are drawing the distinction between education and propaganda in a very concrete and "deep" way, which I admire. But I have no reason yet to see how this distinction which you draw bears a resemblance to reality as we know it. What makes you think that your sort of advertising will be more effective than the current form of manipulation, brainwashing and death?

Not more effective, just also there. Thus reducing the net effect of the other type.

Quote:
I believe that the instrument and the end-result are intimately connected. Why has the modern world of the last 100 years differed so drastically from what has come before, if advertising is merely, at the level of instrument, no different from education or art? I think the instrument is very, very different.

If you want to revolutionize advertising in the way you state, this is an excellent goal. I do not dispute this. But if you believe you can revolutionize it from the inside, making use of the very same instruments and media and distribution systems as currently push the global advertising insanity and death-machine, I entirely disagree. I also disagree that your own counter-movement, however you plan to carry it out, is able to pose any serious threat to the established order, but this is only because so far I have seen no evidence to make me believe otherwise.

Have either you or Q given real concrete examples here yet? Maybe I missed them, I am very interested in seeing specifically what sort of "advertising" you and Q mean. Again, the questions I designed for Q to really target the substance behind these claims have so far gone unanswered.

I suppose that I am at heart a little more hopeful and optimistic about man and his potential future - but just a little. In the end I think it's going to be harsh awareness, cataclysm and scientific/philosophical advancement that truly breaks new ground for new health. But since I already am very harshly aware and a scientific philosopher, I consider myself to be in a position to begin advertising my perspective.
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05-26-2013, 04:16 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 04:18 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #86
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RE: Advertising
The idea is to create a gateway. What's behind that gateway has already been established. I think that the models of thought we (notably you, JSS, I, Parodites) have brought to each others awareness in the past two years or so is truly worth more than just a little hope and ambition. In fact I find it very hard to even muster a feeling of doubt about the power of any of it. It is this power that I want to 'advertise' - as all that drives man is his will to _the feeling of_ power, to bring up Sauwelios' most adequate contribution to Nietzsche.

And yet as Q says, the content can be conveyed to a good extent in its presentation. In fact, that will be the real 'revolution' in advertising - having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie.
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05-26-2013, 06:24 AM Post: #87
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
having it convey a seductive truth, rather than a seductive lie.

Love it.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-26-2013, 06:31 AM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 06:31 AM by Q.) Post: #88
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RE: Advertising
Now, having said all of that: Google Glass is crazy.

I am writing an article about all of this that will explain it better, but suffice it say I have seen this thing coming years ago (I thought it would be Apple because at the time I saw them as move inventive) and now that it is here, things are starting to really get nuts. They know where they want to take this thing. The year of 'testing' is to dissolve the laws that stand in the way of them bulldozing privacy. You wanna get nuts? Let get nuts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-MtW7hbzWk

I'm honestly not sure what to say. Eventually, there will be that line in the sand. There will be the 'purists' and the borg. lol..."hey sexy. Why don't you take off your HUD and let's do this thing."

More in a bit.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-26-2013, 08:41 AM Post: #89
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I want to express my objections fully, like ChainOfBeing, not to demolish or contradict you, but because if you are to win, you must understand them. Even if you later decide to ignore them.

I think advertisement, the appeal to drives, is a massive disrispect to human chemistry. I may be cruel, but I prefer to let someone be dumb than force him to be smart. I don't want my friends to be endebted to me to that degree, and anybody that I help is a friend. There is an important element of individuality to human, to mammal, even. To attempt to overcome this is communism, fascism, and all other governmental isms.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-26-2013, 08:43 AM Post: #90
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RE: Advertising
In other words, I believe that lust is a private affair, and a human right in its privacy if any thing is.

Privacy isn't secrecy, just discretion in the sense of initiative.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"

RE: Advertising
Absolutely.

This touches on the deep instinct of aversion and disgust I have always had when given the opportunity to lead lesser minds to positions of higher truths. If I am the only thing causing their rise, this is not only offensive to them and me, but is actually harmful to them. And to me. I am only able to speak with, education and elevate minds that have a certain quality about them which means that my "interventions" into their ideas is not manipulation but rather only an exchange of information. I suspect this quality has much to do with the difference between active and passive consciousness.

I think this is something that certain people just do not understand, because they seem to feel none of this aversion in the moment of manipulative influence. To them the ends entirely justify the means, with no "remainder" whatsoever.
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05-26-2013, 01:02 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 01:02 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #92
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RE: Advertising
And Q, as for Google Glass.... so what?

You think we do not already live in a world without whatever values and ideals you think are going to be sacrificed to Glass? Wake up man. Open your fucking eyes.

Glass is just another excuse for you to feel the stimulation of your ego, of your vanity as coerced self-valuing. You are more interested in your own emotional pleasure and self-justification than in anything else, which is why I have questioned you on this whole "revolutionzing advertising" thing from the very beginning here.
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05-26-2013, 02:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-26-2013 02:23 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #93
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RE: Advertising
Fixed Cross, yes I see what you are saying, I agree with you. From your vantage my argument here is basically saying that we should just lay down and give up, just wait to die. However that is not my intention, and this consequence only manifests from the perspective of someone as elevated as yourself.

I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it.

My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too -- perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying.

The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power..... until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us.

When among those such as yourself, I am not nearly as cynical as I can appear to be. Pragmatism only hides an ideal when viewed through the lens of something greater, of something which truly has grown up from such soil of an ideal itself.

In effect, I long for a society of my peers, and barring this pronounce philosophy and all else merely an eternal vanity, a hopeless self-annihilation.
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05-27-2013, 02:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:04 AM by Q.) Post: #94
Q Offline
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RE: Advertising
Someone tell this guy we all get the basic ideas he's presenting here. We don't need the tl;dr posts about the basics of conspiracy 101.

And that he doesn't need to talk like a movie character.
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05-27-2013, 02:06 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:11 AM by Q.) Post: #95
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RE: Advertising
I've asked you the same question like fucking 14 times. Why don't you try answering it, instead of rambling on about shit we've beaten into the ground 3 years ago.

We're growing up. You should think about joining us. You're just a broken record at this point. You've said the same thing in every post in this thread. It's not that I don't get it. It's that I don't care about your sophomoric stance.

Quote:
I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for.

Don't tell me that power can corrupt a person. You haven't had enough to know what it's like.
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05-27-2013, 02:18 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 02:20 AM by Q.) Post: #96
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
I do not believe that Q is worthy of the power which you aim for. I believe that you are worthy of it. But I wonder how many there are, who are capable of really taking this power and controlling it, rather than being determined by it. Pezer is correct that one cannot just use the machine itself to try and destroy the machine, it will not let this happen. But what we can do is select certain parts of the machine, for revaluation. This would be the application of strict values-selection and would require both the most general-comprehensive kind of intelligent as well as the most specific-precise kind of intelligence. Value Ontology presupposes both, of course, in those who are able to/compelled to grasp it.

My aim is not to give up on the aim, but to legitimize it. For my part, this means to purge its impure elements. At this point that is all I can really do, because I see this more easily than I see where we actually go forward from here. Your point that the future is not poisoned, yes I see this too -- perhaps my issue is with the chasm between the ideal-actual and the real-actual, between the forms of virtuality, as equally real in their own right, and the concrete constructions of hard past, immovable stone, the dead and forever dying.

The mind can slip from one extreme to another and anywhere in between, based only on the most whimsical, psychologistic and arbitrary concern. Desire, need, self-satiety, anxiety and fear, self-defense, the feeling of the will to power..... until these are harnessed by something which has gone beyond them, and beyond even the collective sum of them, we can elevate ourselves and our aim with as many theories and ideas as we like, but we have in effect changed nothing. Again this is what Pezer also said with his long list of thinkers-writers and the detrimental consequences of their thought. We must know at least in general toward what ends our aims move. And I do not mean our intention, our vision, but rather a movement seated in the world, in what is already beyond us.

I don't know if you are just baked or something, but read this outloud. You realize that you are saying

literally nothing of substance here.

So what should we aspire to, really? Long posts on a forum preaching to the choir? Or actual change in the world? And your counterargument is, "Well I don't think that guy that can successfully do it."

You don't even fucking know me, man. If you did you wouldn't be talking to me like an 6-year-old about the Will to Power. I will fill you in on something: everyone here understands the Will to Power. We have all read most philosophy books. I even have a degree in philosophy. I don't need your approval. All I need is for you to answer the question I have posed to you 14 times.

I'm really getting tired of people treating reality like some Star Trek TNG city.
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05-27-2013, 02:27 AM Post: #97
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RE: Advertising
As I said before: I haven't given up on society.

Have you, chain? Have you completely given up, and do you want things to be some Mad Max scenario?

I don't see how you guys can just drop words like 'Anarchist' and then even be on a forum? Why not just move to some farm or something somewhere and live our your days? I don't see the use in sitting around hoping for 'No government' when that is... just fucking clearly not going to happen. Humans are organized. That is just a cosmic pattern that will never change.
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05-27-2013, 02:31 AM Post: #98
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RE: Advertising
Answer this. Fuck. I don't see how you both can't look at it like this regardless. All logic leads here. If you can show how commerce doesn't need to happen, then I'll drop this pursuit right now.

(05-25-2013 11:07 AM)Q Wrote:
Quote:
It is damaging because it co-opts the self-valuing mechanism toward ends not that the individual is not complicit in and/or is unaware of. Advertising inserts repetitions and fixation-patterns into the psyche, reorganizing desires, fears, ideas, perceptions around a single goal: to get that person to think-feel-act in a way that directly benefits the producers of the ads.

Yes. This is correct. That is to say, advertising is a crazy powerful force.

That is the specific reason why I want to try and change it. Right now, it's too powerful, and the very act of selling is something that we can't escape.

So, if we can't escape selling, we have to change how it is done. That is what I am saying. If you can find me a way around the above, then I would love to hear it.

If you have some way where we don't need to sell stuff, then let's do that for sure.
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05-27-2013, 02:47 AM Post: #99
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Advertising
My apologies. I did not realize the full extent of your depravity.
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05-27-2013, 03:14 AM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:15 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #100
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RE: Advertising
I will do you the honor of responding to your question, despite that you have wholly ignored my 7 focused questions to you.

I believe this is the one you want a response to,
Quote:
There will always be selling - start with that. I think you will find that a lot of what you said is irrelevant when you consider advertising is going to happen. The question is: how?

I have not ever claimed or assumed that advertising is "not going to happen". I think you see my position through a false lens because this appears easier for you to understand, that I am trying merely to dismiss the unquestionable reality of the world of selling and advertising, as if these do not reach deep into the core nature of the human essence.

The goal of anarchy is not to undo what has already risen from the inevitable, the goal of anarchy is to produce alternatives, to widen the sphere of the possible. We oppose substance with substance, not substance with absence.

And when dealing with the "how?", this is what FC and I have been talking about, if you are paying attention.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:15 pm

RE: Advertising
Quote:
If you want to truly help subvert the modern reality of advertising, find a way to sell things that does not require an ad, a manipulation and distorted presentation.

I think avoiding full transparency is inevitable.

Anyone remember Tristan/XCZ? One of the most important things he said to em is that you if you want anyone to listen, you have to learn how to market yourself. You have to dress things up a little bit.

Like I keep saying, I would like to get rid of ads.

However, if that happens, then the selling cannot be transparent or it won't be effective. People won't buy. You can't have a movie or website that is totally transparent. Just look at how people buy stuff - even the most ethical companies have to play the game because people sort of like to play games.

At the very least, it's just boring if you don't.

Money these days is just people viewing and talking with each other online. Advertising will shift to that, it's just a question of how. What I am trying to do is get close to an evitability more so than create something totally new or put in a lot of work.
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05-27-2013, 11:25 AM Post: #112
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RE: Advertising
Maybe they don't buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn't sell itself, it maybe shouldn't be sold.
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05-27-2013, 11:27 AM Post: #113
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That people have been trained not to be entertained by anything other than what they can be advertised into allowing themselves to enjoy is, I am starting to think, enough of a reason to to infiltrate and trick people out of it. So you are reeling me in. But the examples you have used of how advertising is already changing are not that, and seem more like refinements on the old guard technique.
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05-27-2013, 12:43 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 12:46 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #114
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RE: Advertising
Yes. 90+% of everything sold is either utterly useless or harmful. Advertising makes us want it. If the product laid bare isn't marketable then either the product is worthless or people don't recognize it's value.

So your revolution can begin by establishing the standards of value by which the two are differentiated from one another. Thus letting the first type fall out of the (artificial) market and letting the other stand forth and become value-able in the (real) market.

Productive constructions of artificial or fabricated value still need something more or less substantial and grounded to rest upon. Even Nietzsche with his "great and terrifying masks" knew this. I say, use advertising against advertising. Make anti-ad ads, like what Adbusters does. Don't refine the system's tools, expose the tool as tool. Someone is bound to be able to profit off that, so find them/their product and sell it through the anti-ads.
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05-27-2013, 03:47 PM Post: #115
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RE: Advertising
(05-27-2013 11:25 AM)pezer Wrote:
Maybe they don't buy because the product, laid bare, is a fucking waste of time. This is what we are saying. If it doesn't sell itself, it maybe shouldn't be sold.

What product? I'm not talking about a vacuum cleaner. Time to break out of this 1920's Nietzsche paradigm. That was like a 100 years ago.

We're not moving into, or will ever exist in some Marxist one-product-per-use society so I don't know why you guys bother with that stuff.

I mean... be serious. If you want to talk about that, find Detrop in jail and pen pal with him. I'm looking for something that is remotely plausible. Some Soviet state is not plausible to me.

People want to have fun in life. I don't know why you would even want to live in a society like that. It sounds boring as fuck.
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05-27-2013, 03:52 PM Post: #116
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RE: Advertising
You guys keep reiterating that I shouldn't walk into the Devil's playpen and start trying to change the entire game - OK, cool - but then you come up with this 'Well we want everything to be some Soviet gulag commerce' thing and it's just like... is what actually your plan?

You will have to compromise that slightly if you want to have a hope at succeeding because you are looking to change 'the game' way, way too dramatically to ever hope to succeed.

My approach may not be the most ethically 'pure' but it has a snowball's chance in hell at actually happening.
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05-27-2013, 03:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 03:54 PM by Q.) Post: #117
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RE: Advertising
I am sensing a whole lot of simply hating advertising. And I mean... I get it. I honestly do. I wouldn't be saying this stuff if I didn't fucking despite advertising in its current form.
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05-27-2013, 04:05 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 04:06 PM by Q.) Post: #118
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RE: Advertising
Guys - this is our first hype thread in a while. I like it. Even if I had to get trolly lol

I am not bragging so much as demonstrating how advertising is required for attention in a given area.

There is too much going on for the fact of the matter to be enough. It took me saying something novel to push people past that threshold of interest.
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05-27-2013, 05:19 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 05:20 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #119
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RE: Advertising
Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag?
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05-27-2013, 05:22 PM Post: #120
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RE: Advertising
An all-out war of anti-ads against the whole advertising system doesn't sound "boring" to me at all. In fact it sounds a hell of a lot more interesting than the shit setup we have right now, with the proliferation of fake forms of meaning and value-as-cheap-fashion.

Not to mention the positive health benefits for the individual, relationships, politics and the environment if we were to cut out a huge chunk of the fucking waste that commerce produces.



RE: Advertising
I am saying the public doesn't want complete transparency. I not saying that there should be waste/wasteful/cheap stuff.

If anything, I see those two things as somewhat diametric because I think artistic advertising is more efficient than just saying: "This new vacuum has these new features."

Why regress back to the pre-Bernays period? That is what you are suggesting.
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05-27-2013, 05:59 PM Post: #122
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RE: Advertising
(05-27-2013 05:19 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Wait, who said anything about wanting a Soviet gulag?

I tend to be somewhat dramatic. I love to take literary liberties because, well, I am a writer.
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05-27-2013, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:22 PM by Q.) Post: #123
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RE: Advertising
"So have you figured out a way to work "The Wheel" into it?"

"We know it's hard because wheels aren't really seen as exciting technology, even if they are seen as the original."

------

"He also talked about a deeper bond with the product - nostalgia - it's delicate, but...it's potent.
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05-27-2013, 06:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-27-2013 06:24 PM by Q.) Post: #124
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RE: Advertising
"It takes us to a place that we ache to go again."

"It lets us travel in the way that a child travels."
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05-27-2013, 06:29 PM Post: #125
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Bro, you have accused us of much projecting, so you are held to see it in yourself.

Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it's something else, please blow my mind, and don't use pretty abstractions like you accuse us of doing.

And read me like I mean it, without spite (without moraline Wink ).
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05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #126
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Advertising as free-form teasing...?

I can see why you are into the occult... I'm not sying don't jump into the hell fire!!! By the gods!! I am saying please do,

If anything, I just want you to know that it is hell fire so that you can be prepared to deal with shit once you get there.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-27-2013, 06:34 PM Post: #127
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Now, listen, advertising is defined as the presenting of a product. If it's something else, please blow my mind,

Ah ha, but here it is:

It can't be anything else, because that is so broad. That is what I am saying.
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05-27-2013, 06:35 PM Post: #128
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RE: Advertising
Dude, did you ever really let the significance of Beyond Good and Evil as a phrase sink in?

Beyond

Good

and

Evil.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-27-2013, 06:37 PM Post: #129
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RE: Advertising
That was as far as defusing my appearance of judge and jury. I am a critic, and a colaborationist.

I said you are selling products. You said that is 1920 talk. I say show me how. Yo say I'm being too broad.
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05-27-2013, 07:01 PM Post: #130
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RE: Advertising
Let me sleep on it.



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RE: Advertising
It's 1920's talk because... this isn't the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It's all art. It's all advertising. It's all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art.

Or that is how I see it.
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05-28-2013, 07:18 PM Post: #132
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RE: Advertising
(05-28-2013 06:31 PM)Q Wrote:
It's 1920's talk because... this isn't the 1920s. Like I said, what I am talking about with respect to ads applies to even this forum. Why not just have it all black and white with no quotes or any aesthetic consideration? Why did I color it like this, and behave a certain way? It's all art. It's all advertising. It's all interconnected, and when you try to hate on one aspect, you just invariably end up hating on art.

Or that is how I see it.

The difference is that beauty does not advertise anything. Beauty becomes an advertisement with the addition of a vainity, insatiable longing, coupling with a desire. This is how philosophy emerges in a state of wonder, as Aristotle said, because conscience or morality/the good, in terms of a human kind of sympathy, bears firstly only the weight of itself and assumes a noble stature of innocence before depravity and lust. The proof is in the pudding. Philosophy is that sign of an arriving aesthetic upon the back of which things become as new, new desires, new lusts, new sympathies and powers.

No one is talking about going back in time to 1920s era, but in the modern world there exists the choice to aim oneself either toward that from which the creative impulse came, even if the aim is itself the child of this impulse and/or its "refinement", or toward what alone may exist solely because the impulse exists, as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility.

We don't want to get mired in the past. That is what we think you are doing.
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05-29-2013, 01:34 AM Post: #133
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RE: Advertising
I'm getting mired in Marx. You keep ignoring that point. I will keep bringing it up.
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05-29-2013, 01:35 AM Post: #134
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RE: Advertising
What you are saying has merit, but you're taking it back to the Greeks.
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05-29-2013, 01:37 AM Post: #135
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
as a greater measure of its vitality, of a higher possibility.

Please give me an example .
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05-29-2013, 02:55 AM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 02:57 AM by pezer.) Post: #136
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RE: Advertising
Me first, then you:

Art is the bringing up of impulses and drives.

Advertising is the presenting of a product (usually through art). If it's anything else, blow my mind.

Go
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05-29-2013, 05:46 AM Post: #137
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RE: Advertising
Marx
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05-29-2013, 06:01 AM Post: #138
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RE: Advertising
I could just as easily say 'Advertising is the bringing up of impulses and desires'.

Selling stuff (online) is intractably connected to artistic endeavours. The only kind of art you are taking about would be someone in a cave doing it for no one else. No one does that.

If its online, it's selling.
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05-29-2013, 06:03 AM Post: #139
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RE: Advertising
Why can't you say the words? You are presenting a product.
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05-29-2013, 06:05 AM Post: #140
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RE: Advertising
And remember, I'm not making a moralistic point. I care fuck all if art dies tomorrow, today.
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RE: Advertising
Ok, fuck the pproduct. Now it's me being silly. Youa re selling. We agree.
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05-29-2013, 06:07 AM Post: #142
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RE: Advertising
Does it not matter what it is you are selling when you are selling?
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05-29-2013, 06:08 AM Post: #143
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RE: Advertising
Fuck that too.

Tell me, what exactly are you selling me right n-

Ok. I'm starting to get it...
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05-29-2013, 06:09 AM Post: #144
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RE: Advertising
Yes.

What exactly are you trying to sell me right now?

If you can't tell me, if you have to dance around it with art, I am deeply suspicious that I wouldn't want it if I knew what it was. That is a point against advertising, not for it.
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05-29-2013, 07:22 AM Post: #145
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RE: Advertising
Yes I will say it: advertising is selling something. I don't deny that.
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05-29-2013, 07:24 AM Post: #146
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RE: Advertising
Everything online is selling. Even this post. I want you to respond.
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05-29-2013, 08:37 AM Post: #147
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RE: Advertising
The problem with selling is the end it denotes. Words for activity tend to include an end-game, and the end-game of selling is to exchange money for whatever. Is that the end game? Isn't money itself designed to be only a middleman?

Is it the process itself that you are seeking to rejuvinate, change somehow?

Or is the reason you want me to respond not the money endgame of a website's functioning?

Me, I am not here to sell anything. Maybe that's why I constantly feel like I'm running into walls. I'm not here to buy, either. I'm here to criticize and collaborate. To exchange perceptions.
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05-29-2013, 08:39 AM Post: #148
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RE: Advertising
Philosophical and non-philosophical discussion does not function by the lose something, get something paradigm. It works by showing something and being shown something. The production of value happens inside the philosopher or non-philosopher's head.
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05-29-2013, 10:16 AM Post: #149
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RE: Advertising
Right.

So I have concluded I cannot convey this idea to yours or my satisfaction. Not sure where we go from here.

Prob just to talking about something else.
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05-29-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #150
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RE: Advertising
Q, we have stated our belief plainly and with detail. You have stated yours plainly as well, but have given precious little detail. Perhaps we can take it from there.
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:24 pm

RE: Advertising
Or maybe if I lay out for you my fears and hopes here we can move forward.

My fear is that your project might be a sexy way to avoid the real work at hand, which is to break down the barriers of stupidity and advance human along its present potential.

My hopes are that advertising can be transformed in the way you are telling us it can be, or that, made smaller, it can act as another force in the field instead of the tyrannical mind-nanny it is today.
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05-29-2013, 11:08 AM Post: #152
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RE: Advertising
Dude we're on page 15. I've stated the detail as much as I can. I am not holding out on you. It's just that you guys keep asking for an example of an advertisement, but you refuse to accept my example, which is a movie or a website. Which one doesn't matter. At all. I get the feeling you are convinced this will be solved by some example. It won't, so I'm unsure why you guy keep asking for one.

It may be that I cannot explain this because I have not fleshed it out myself enough.
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05-29-2013, 11:54 AM Post: #153
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RE: Advertising
I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing.

Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda.
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05-29-2013, 12:13 PM (This post was last modified: 05-29-2013 12:13 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #154
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RE: Advertising
Sure Q, if you define advertising as "to show someone something" then yeah, it's all advertising.

But then again, in so doing all you have accomplished is playing around with mere semantics. I have been trying to go deeper, unfortunately you seem not to want to come along.
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05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #155
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RE: Advertising
Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read.
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05-29-2013, 03:21 PM Post: #156
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RE: Advertising
(05-29-2013 11:54 AM)pezer Wrote:
I think that's the case. I took your examples, they just seem to me like examples of exactly what I don't want, what doesn't seem to be what you are proposing.

Do flesh it out, don't let yourself be dragged into some other person's agenda.

You don't want a website?
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05-29-2013, 03:46 PM Post: #157
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RE: Advertising
OK, talk to us about the Marx connection again. If anything, it seems to me that advertising just follows the cycle of monopoly of ideas. Is that what you want to work for?
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05-29-2013, 05:02 PM Post: #158
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RE: Advertising
I think you put too much stock in our shared knowledge. ChainOfBeing and I recognize intelligence by how that shit is translated, with each philosopher or non-philosopher's art, into written word. If we seem like we are just trying to sound smart, it is because that is the only way we recognize smart.

We want you to tell us your plan, no refer us to the source theory that supports it.
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05-30-2013, 06:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 06:06 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #159
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RE: Advertising
(05-29-2013 03:21 PM)Q Wrote:
Dude, we'd get along a lot better if you just assume we're all of around the same intelligence, we're all willing, and we're all more or less as well read.

On what basis would I justifiably assume any such thing?

You would rather get along than uncover truth?


Know that you ascribe pathological motives to my writings here which do not exist. I am concerned with truth and not with your, or my own, feelings. Do me the honor of being likewise motivated, if you are able. And maybe consider starting by answering those 7 questions that I put to you. Why have you not answered them yet?
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05-30-2013, 06:06 AM Post: #160
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RE: Advertising
I will explain it.
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RE: Advertising
Basically, Marx says that all art, no matter what you think, is reduced down to socio-economic forces.

There is no "pure" art for Marx.

I think you can certainly attack this view, but others have and they haven't faired all that well. I have written numerous times about how Virgina Woolf somewhat does disprove Marx indirectly, but thus far no one has touched on her reasoning.

You all just keep saying, "Yeah, pure art is possible."

Is it? Unless you are alone in a cave?
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05-30-2013, 08:08 AM Post: #162
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RE: Advertising
Whereas I wonder why Q has not answered Chains questions, I disagree with the idea that advertising is always selling something. That's too narrow. I'm sure you all know the phrase "there's no such thing as bad publicity". Advertising is publicity, which means: making it known that some/thing/one exists.

And if you think about this deeper, practically - how else are you ever going to communicate about something that is of value to you, without advertising it? It's usually impossible. You're most of the time going to show, convey just a detail, a segment, a part of whatever it is you're trying to draw attention to.

Selectivity is not primarily due to betrayal, deceit. It's primarily due to lack of time and space, lack of attention-span, lack of brainpower, lack of opportunity to tell the whole truth. A good advertisement, in my eyes, is one that conveys an idea that in turn evokes the desire to find out the whole truth to which that idea pertains.

Q, you're not one known to show the back of your tongue. Sometimes you'll need to do just that to win people's trust. So, sometimes advertising isn't enough. Is it fair to say that right now what you're doing is advertising advertising?
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05-30-2013, 08:13 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 08:15 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #163
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RE: Advertising
From what I read, they're not saying that pure art (whatever that is) is possible, they're rather not agreeing that advertising is art at all. The point is not that it's impure art, but that it departs from a totally different basis.

But then we do get into a shady area. Art generally works to draw the attention to something - most generally and rudimentarily, to the mindset of the artist - and in case of much commercial art, to certain values, a certain lifestyle, certain impulses...

Concerning most of the questions philosophy can ask I have come to a pretty satisfying answer. But on "what is art?" I feel in my bones that I can not give a clear cut definition. Perhaps it is the question that needs to be addressed here, boring, age old and impossible as it may be.
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05-30-2013, 10:38 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:39 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #164
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RE: Advertising
Art is a process of maintaining fidelity to something, to truth, to an appeal of openness and to the cathartic creative act. Art produces a change in the artist and in the viewer of the art, art fundamentally changes the way that we see, think, believe, feel, value. Real art will fucking change your life.

Art is profound, whereas advertising takes the shortest route and is bent upon efficiency. Efficiency of manipulating the viewer to some end. Advertising is impossible without this desire to influence, whereas art can and often is done with no such desire to influence. Where art achieves influence it is often a secondary thing and perhaps not even intended by the artist.

Where advertising incorporates a more artistic approach it only becomes more like art and less like advertising. The middle-ground between art and advertising, where these overlap, are only the exceptions that most prove the rule, that most show the real differences between the two.

Art may become political, it may emerge from a political truth, but its aim is never only to influence the politics of something. Art is always done at least in part for its own sake, because of the cathartic need, the need for freedom, the creative spirit, and in obedience to some aesthetic or intellectual standard even if only implicitly. Advertising, to the contrary, must have this political intention, it cannot merely emerge from a political truth but must aim toward the political---influence is the only reason that any advertising is ever created. Not so with art.
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05-30-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 10:44 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #165
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RE: Advertising
In this way, we can see advertising as a more recent and distorted offspring of art. Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void. Advertising therefore is the corruption of art toward ends which art itself may end up serving, but in its own way, and only as a secondary effect to its primary motive-cause. Advertising removes the core of art and uses the image, the form of it to ends anathema to art itself; art does not need to prescribe its own end, its own effect, rather art deliberately must abstain from doing so if it is to remain authentic, if it is to "groove in an aesthetic" and act as a disclosure of that which is concealed.
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05-30-2013, 01:14 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 01:14 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #166
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RE: Advertising
In removing the core of art while retaining its form and something of its impulse, advertising has both liberated self-valuing from any historical boundary, as well as given birth to the greatest monster ever known to mankind.
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05-30-2013, 03:04 PM Post: #167
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
Advertising has taken art and removed from it the impulse to truth, the need for freedom, the cathartic effect, and the need to open up and maintain a fidelity to the void.

Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least.

I put it to you this way: do you think advertising has changed since the internet has hit?
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05-30-2013, 04:09 PM Post: #168
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RE: Advertising
(05-30-2013 03:04 PM)Q Wrote:
Again, we're not in the Bernays era anymore. Not completely, at least.

In what way?

Btw, yes, I feel it has gotten more personal, like in that creepy ass show we all watched that one time with the guy living in the world sorrounded by screens. You know, the sequel to the pig fucking politician.
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05-31-2013, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 10:22 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #169
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RE: Advertising
To be completely honest Q, I see no reason to continue engaging you further here. It isn't just that you seem unable or unwilling to acknowledge or engage my points (or to answer the questions which I carefully constructed with the aim of furthering this discussion and getting to know your position better), but that you truly seem motivated by something other than honest disclosure of truth. I would say you have an agenda to push, but then again I don't know you that well really. You may just be ignorant of what you are doing.

This is not a game to me, I am not here to play chess. This is serious, this fucking matters.
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05-31-2013, 10:53 AM Post: #170
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RE: Advertising
You think I am some agent provacateur or something? Lol you must be completely paranoid.

Nice. I like it.

As for this discussion, sure we can end it. I already said that a couple posts ago. I would suggest you guys read Marx. That is pretty key here and it doesn't sound like that part is clicking.

In the meantime I will refactor this argument



Also if I am making a reference you do not get, just tell me. Instead of saying I'm not answering questions when the answers (or lack thereof) depend on the references.
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05-31-2013, 10:59 AM Post: #172
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RE: Advertising
You guys should put yourself in my position.

All I am seeing is "Art is like...moving people's emotions, and stuff."

I'm plenty serious but it kinda sounds like you're giving me your personal definition for why art is. Let's skip that and just use actual philosophical stances.
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05-31-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #173
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RE: Advertising
If you want to go with some Aristotlean virtue thing, then why cannot I bring up Marx, who came after and addressed all that?

Why can't we move from Bernays era into a new one? Why are we being held back by you guys' personal views that advertising in the 20's is the same as now. It's fucking not.
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05-31-2013, 12:31 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 12:31 PM by pezer.) Post: #174
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RE: Advertising
¡You have yet to fucking make a point at all to explain that!
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05-31-2013, 12:33 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 12:34 PM by pezer.) Post: #175
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RE: Advertising
I am trying here man, I honestly am. I could not be more curious as to what redeeming thing you see in advertising. I reallyreallyreallytreallyreally want to know. But your defensiveness is like every time we say something to try to understand, we get hit over the fucking head with a club. It hurts. We do it because we want to help you help us get it.

Please, stop beating us over the head with a club.

Explain your position. To go back to the 20's in a different way: man up and explain your position.
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05-31-2013, 01:06 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 01:10 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #176
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RE: Advertising
Q, yeah, I get Marx, I've read Marx. So what? Marx didn't even fucking write about art, as far as I have ever read or seen. It is not central to his ideas at all.

If modern advertising began with Bernays, then what the hell are you talking about with "There is no "pure" art for Marx. "? You got some quotes or something to back that up, or at least a clear and rational argument? How are you connecting any of this together?
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05-31-2013, 01:10 PM Post: #177
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RE: Advertising
I don't even care about Marx, honestly. If you want to create an actual argument using some of his ideas, that would be great, I would love to get into that. But you have not done that, not at all.

As Pezer said, you are highly defensive, you continue to just beat us over the head with, well nothing really.


Where is your substance? Why do you hide?
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05-31-2013, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 01:29 PM by Q.) Post: #178
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RE: Advertising
Look, I don't know what to tell you. Marx isn't all proletarians and revolutions. If you think he hasn't written about art, you are wrong.

For like the twenty-seventh time, this is the argument:

Marx explains how there is no "pure" art in the sense that you are describing because you can never escape socio-political contexts that bind people.

Your definition of art:

Quote:
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.

For Marx, this is non-sensical.

Quote:
Their superb knowledge of world art helped Marx and Engels to elaborate genuinely scientific aesthetic principles. The founders of scientific communism were thus not only able to answer the complex aesthetic questions of the previous age, but also to elaborate a fundamentally new system of aesthetic science. They did so only as a result of the great revolutionary upheaval they had brought about in philosophy by creating dialectical and historical materialism and laying down the foundations for the materialist conception of history. Though Marx and Engels have left no major writings on art, their views in this field, when collected together, form a harmonious whole which is a logical extension of their scientific and revolutionary Weltanschauung. They explained the nature of art and its paths of development, its tasks in society and social aims. Marxist aesthetics, like the whole teaching of Marx and Engels, are subordinated to the struggle for the communist reorganisation of society.

When developing their theory of aesthetics, Marx and Engels naturally based themselves on the achievements of their predecessors. But the main aesthetic problems — and above all the problem of the relationship between art and reality — were solved by them in a fundamentally new way, on the basis of materialist dialectics. Idealist aesthetics considered art as a reproduction of the ideal, standing over and* above actual reality. The origin of any art form, its development, flowering, and decay, all remained incomprehensible to the art theoreticians and historians of the pre-Marxian period, inasmuch as they studied these in isolation from man’s social existence.

Marx and Engels considered it absolutely impossible to understand art and literature proceeding only from their internal laws of development. In their opinion, the essence, origin, development, and social role of art could only be understood through analysis of the social system as a whole, within which the economic factor — the development, of productive forces in complex interaction with production relations — plays the decisive role. Thus art, as defined by Marx and Engels, is one of the forms of social consciousness and it therefore follows that the reasons for its changes should be sought in the social existence of men.

Marx and Engels revealed the social nature of art and its development in the course of history and showed that in a society with class antagonisms it was influenced by class ‘contradictions and by the politics and ideologies of particular classes.

In other words, if you are poor, you are selling the poor. If you are rich, you are selling the rich.

I don't know what is so hard to get about this. It's a super old argument. All art, commerce, communication, it's all theoretically been linked. But now it's happening in actuality. In the very system that we live in.

If you want me to prescribe to a view of art that was surpassed by a guy with a Santa beard 150 years ago, it's not going to happen. You will have to do better than the basic dichotomy you are presenting here. Marx knocks that shit down.

Quote:
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.

I mean just read it. Are you satisfied with that? I'm not.
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05-31-2013, 01:46 PM Post: #179
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
I am trying here man, I honestly am. I could not be more curious as to what redeeming thing you see in advertising.

But I don't see any real redeeming part to it. I keep saying this. Go back and read the first couple posts. I say that I like to manipulate people (what artist doesn't) but I do not say that I find advertising redeeming. I say that it needs a serious overhaul.

It's like you guys have just made up your mind about advertising as completely beyond saving, and then when I ask you OK, what alternative is there? You go on about some anarchist thing, as if people won't still need to buy and sell things.

If anything, I am the serious one here. I have thought about this carefully.

It comes to to two things:

1.) Is advertising going anywhere, even in some anarchist thing? No. It's not.

2.) Given the above, there needs to be a change in the advertising industry for the better. Or it will continue to suck.
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05-31-2013, 02:01 PM Post: #180
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That is a fine argument, but I have already answered it. This is the form my answer takes: My philosophical studies have led me to believe that, yes, advertising is beyond saving; yet I have changed my mind radically enough about enough things to promise my help to you anyways, let's do this shit, let's overhaul advertising.

About Marx, it took me a very long time, but I finally understood that his system has borders as well, there is possible human action outside his framework. Anarchist literature abounds. Art might not have a place there, this I know, and I am willing to make the sacrifice. In my mind, you are right that art is in the end part of the Marxist zeitgeist process, a way to channel both the impulses of the viewer and the artist that allows for "teh system" to sustain "itself." A way to make an animal ccivilized in the capitalist flavour. An anarchist doesn't necessarily believe in primitivism, but s/he believes in an overhaul of the sublimating devices that is based on human scientific though in lieu of dumb fucking luck.

In other words, no, I do not believe that selling-buying is necessary at all. All we need is for the cream of the intelligence crop to decide this is true and stop slaving over systems they sub-consciously, if not consciously, know to be below their intellectual capacities.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"


Along these lines, here is a video series I made. It lasts about 56 mins total.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-31-2013, 02:09 PM Post: #182
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
All we need is for the cream of the intelligence crop to decide this is true and stop slaving over systems they sub-consciously, if not consciously, know to be below their intellectual capacities.

What about everyone else? The people on this forum represent like 6% of society.
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05-31-2013, 02:12 PM Post: #183
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RE: Advertising
And how do you expect to make the global 6% do that?

This is why, for me, this always comes back to, ta da, material stuff.
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05-31-2013, 02:26 PM Post: #184
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RE: Advertising
That 6% is the only one that really makes decisions on consciousness. Everybody else just follows. We are the 94%'s future.

Material does not = the current status quo. That's just what the propaganda is designed to make us feel. By us, I mean the 6%.

People in charge don't like change, that is why so many intellectuals have historically taken up arms against them. Yet, as I have said, arms are no longer necessary. Though those people in charge don't see it, the potential our thought has is not dangerous to anybody.

I had a dog once, he was brought in by my mom from many years of living in an abusive family. Everytime I approached him with the intention to pet him and be nice to him at first was met with uncontrollable fear and pissing all over everywhere.

Did I decide to beat him, but in a better way because that's the only thing he would accept? The only way I could get him to eat the food I served him?

No. Little by little, by being myself, I showed him there was no danger. Eventually, we became close friends.
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05-31-2013, 02:28 PM Post: #185
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
The world is ours now, Q. We can do what we want with it. Your employers' employers will all be dead 30 years from now.

What seeds will we plant?
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05-31-2013, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 02:59 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #186
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RE: Advertising
(05-31-2013 01:28 PM)Q Wrote:
Look, I don't know what to tell you. Marx isn't all proletarians and revolutions. If you think he hasn't written about art, you are wrong.

For like the twenty-seventh time, this is the argument:

Marx explains how there is no "pure" art in the sense that you are describing because you can never escape socio-political contexts that bind people.

Your definition of art:

Quote:
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.

For Marx, this is non-sensical.

Yeah, because that isn't my argument, either. You are not reading closely enough.

Quote:
Quote:
Their superb knowledge of world art helped Marx and Engels to elaborate genuinely scientific aesthetic principles. The founders of scientific communism were thus not only able to answer the complex aesthetic questions of the previous age, but also to elaborate a fundamentally new system of aesthetic science. They did so only as a result of the great revolutionary upheaval they had brought about in philosophy by creating dialectical and historical materialism and laying down the foundations for the materialist conception of history. Though Marx and Engels have left no major writings on art, their views in this field, when collected together, form a harmonious whole which is a logical extension of their scientific and revolutionary Weltanschauung. They explained the nature of art and its paths of development, its tasks in society and social aims. Marxist aesthetics, like the whole teaching of Marx and Engels, are subordinated to the struggle for the communist reorganisation of society.

When developing their theory of aesthetics, Marx and Engels naturally based themselves on the achievements of their predecessors. But the main aesthetic problems — and above all the problem of the relationship between art and reality — were solved by them in a fundamentally new way, on the basis of materialist dialectics. Idealist aesthetics considered art as a reproduction of the ideal, standing over and* above actual reality. The origin of any art form, its development, flowering, and decay, all remained incomprehensible to the art theoreticians and historians of the pre-Marxian period, inasmuch as they studied these in isolation from man’s social existence.

Marx and Engels considered it absolutely impossible to understand art and literature proceeding only from their internal laws of development. In their opinion, the essence, origin, development, and social role of art could only be understood through analysis of the social system as a whole, within which the economic factor — the development, of productive forces in complex interaction with production relations — plays the decisive role. Thus art, as defined by Marx and Engels, is one of the forms of social consciousness and it therefore follows that the reasons for its changes should be sought in the social existence of men.

Marx and Engels revealed the social nature of art and its development in the course of history and showed that in a society with class antagonisms it was influenced by class ‘contradictions and by the politics and ideologies of particular classes.

In other words, if you are poor, you are selling the poor. If you are rich, you are selling the rich.

Yeah, except that Marx never said that. His writing is ripe for reinterpretation at the hands of many (over)zealous perspectives bent on turning his thought into whatever they want it to be.

If all you have is some supposed secondary lit., that is pretty shallow. Like I said I have read Marx, and I can tell you that "what is art?" is not an issue he tackles, ever. Is not something essential to his ideas. Granted, we can attempt to infer whatever art might or might not be given what we do know of his system. But what the fuck is the point of that, anyway? The only pathos that could sustain such an endeavor is... worship. Is that where you are coming from? The sum of your argument is a bit of secondary literature about what Marx probably thought about something that he never actually wrote about? Um.

Now, if you knew even a bit about value ontology or tectonics, you would see how this view supposedly attributed to Marx is not at all alien to where I am coming from, in fact it is a part of my overall considerations. Of course art emerges from an historica-cultural milieu in which it is embedded and to which its effect will tend to return. But this does not mean that art is nothing except this self-movement of historical capture, not at all. Like all things art takes part in that which conditions it, and is the sum of these conditioning elements and will reflect these. And as I have already written in this topic, art is a process, it is a movement. A processes maintaining fidelity to the void, however and wherever that happens to appear.

Every moment in history has, well, a historical element. Yeah, it's pretty fucking obvious. So what is this big deal you are making out of it? If you want me to address this argument you (seem to be) making, here I am doing you that service. This idea that art is nothing but the secondary emergence of historical forces that can do nothing but sell those forces themselves, is absurd. This is nothing but unjustified reductionism that does not understand the essence of art at all: art discloses its historical milieu, among other things, and is a process of movement toward something, emerging as the effect of an inclination toward deeper and more authentic perspective and disclosure of truth. Art turns the status quo upside down. Does advertising do that? Of course not, just the opposite.

Quote:
I don't know what is so hard to get about this. It's a super old argument. All art, commerce, communication, it's all theoretically been linked. But now it's happening in actuality. In the very system that we live in.

If you want me to prescribe to a view of art that was surpassed by a guy with a Santa beard 150 years ago, it's not going to happen. You will have to do better than the basic dichotomy you are presenting here. Marx knocks that shit down.

No, Marx never "knocks down" the idea that modern advertising and art are two essentially different endeavors. First of all because modern advertising never existed when Marx was alive, second of all because Marx never even wrote about "what is art?" to begin with, as I have already said.

Quote:
Quote:
Art sells itself. Advertising sells X.

I mean just read it. Are you satisfied with that? I'm not.

Of course not. Good thing I never said that. I have already addressed this, you apparently have not been paying attention.
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05-31-2013, 03:00 PM Post: #187
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
In selling itself, art sells that which is within the work, whatever combination of impressions, ideas, reflections, etc, the artist uses as well as the paint and canvas themselves, the tools and materials. In selling X, advertisement tries to exist outside of that which is within the advertisement work, and point to X, which is whatever is being sold consciously.
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05-31-2013, 03:04 PM (This post was last modified: 05-31-2013 03:04 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #188
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RE: Advertising
My point is that using the master-signifying concept of "selling" is a mistake. The point of art, its genesis as a process, as a reflection and a creative movement, goes entirely beyond what "selling" is able to encapsulate.

Anyone who has ever made art will know this. Anyone. Just go ask an artist.
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05-31-2013, 03:05 PM Post: #189
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RE: Advertising
It seems to me that Q and his like want to convince themselves they are artists merely because they create advertising. Well then, I guess how they want to think about their work is up to them, and who am I to shit on their parade?
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05-31-2013, 03:27 PM Post: #190
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RE: Advertising
smh
smh
smh










 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:25 pm

RE: Advertising
Quote:
No, Marx never "knocks down" the idea that modern advertising and art are two essentially different endeavors. First of all because modern advertising never existed when Marx was alive, second of all because Marx never even wrote about "what is art?" to begin with, as I have already said.

You are better than this.

You know that's not what I'm saying. That is, I think you know I know that modern advertising started after Marx. I'm saying: apply what he said to modern advertising.
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05-31-2013, 03:50 PM Post: #192
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
My point is that using the master-signifying concept of "selling" is a mistake.

It's not a mistake. It's more that it can be something else. Namely, a website, an (ads free) television show, or a movie. As I have been saying numerous times now.

You are just arguing semantics, and it's kind of annoying. You can call it whatever you want. If you can't use the word advertising without getting emotional, fine, but people will (for a while at least) be exchanging things for goods and services. And for that process to happen, advertising is the space between.

Neither of you so far has been able to disprove that. Please do that.
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05-31-2013, 11:51 PM Post: #193
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RE: Advertising
We don't need to argue against the fact that advertising happens, selling happens, and are going to continue to happen. Of course this is so. So what? What does that have to do with anything? You have completely, and I mean completely missed our point entirely. And you continue to ignore what I write to you and will not even acknowledge the questions I've asked of you.

Sory Pezer, I'm done with this guy. Can't say I didn't try, though. Good luck.
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06-01-2013, 03:17 AM Post: #194
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
And you continue to ignore what I write to you and will not even acknowledge the questions I've asked of you.

You keep saying this. It's not true. I've answered all of the questions that you have put to me (in time.)

I honestly don't really get you here in this thread. Beyond the fact that you're entertaining some sort of 'I'm testing you' thing, which is annoying enough, you're not really making a point. All you guys have said is, "Anarchy."

All right. That seems to stand at odds with you just admitting that advertising and selling is always going to happen.

Answer some of my questions. If it has to happen, then what about what I am saying doesn't make sense?

Either that or you and Pezer actually explain your anarchy position better. I'll be honest, it just sounds like a bunch of forum philosophy stuff. Sooner or later we have to go out into the world and do stuff. How, precisely, will anarchy change the world?
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06-01-2013, 03:27 AM Post: #195
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RE: Advertising
I'm actually convinced at this point.

It's more or less the same problem we have with JSS, all methodology and no mention or sale of what it is we are going to sell. Remember, the burden of proof is on you to defend advertising, not on us to defend our anarchy which we didn't make a thread on atm. It's complicated shit, with a lot of allies, and it's not just philosophy forum stuff because I'm practicing it, little by little, in afk life. As a general explanation of that, I have invited you down to the part of the world where anarchy may spawn, and you have said "eeewww!"

Fine! I don't care, I'm not recruting anybody that doesn't want to join. On the other hand, I'm quite willing to cooperate with you in sales. But I have to know what I'm selling.
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06-01-2013, 03:51 AM Post: #196
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
If I'm selling better sales practice, I need to know what direction you have in mind.

Netflix doesn't get my dick hard.
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06-01-2013, 04:06 AM Post: #197
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RE: Advertising
Quote:
no mention or sale of what it is we are going to sell.

Is that what this is all about?

You want me to give you some list of items?

And you are mad because I have not? Please tell me that is not what this is about.
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06-01-2013, 04:20 AM Post: #198
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I guess I want you to give me the unifying idea that will make the items on the list obvious.
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06-01-2013, 04:21 AM Post: #199
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I understand the motivation, but what is the product of the motivation? Mine is anarchy. You mock it, but that's what it is. What's yours?

Again, Netflix doesn't inflate my balloon.
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06-01-2013, 04:23 AM Post: #200
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
And yes, there is a stark possibility that one or both of us will be very disappointed by the end of this thread. Let's keep working to avoid that.




RE: Advertising
Why do you keep mentioning netflix? Because I mentioned one time that I did something pertaining to that at work? I think you guys can separate what I want to do with what I do for my job. You write porn ads so I don't know why you are intentionally being so obtuse and spiteful. Drop all that and just calm down.

If you will, point me to your seminal work on why we should aspire for anarchy. If it's that youtube series, you will have to fix the sound. I can't listen to that weird noise for 45 minutes.

I don't get anarchy. Look around you. Order runs the universe. The people who strive for anarchy and chaos, guess who those people are? Why play into that? The next couple of years will be anarchy enough. I really don't get this, "Yo, abandon everyone you know, and everything you've done thus far, and move to another country where dissidents can be droned fucked at any time?"

It's so much more strategic to stay embedded and radiate truth into areas that need it, rather than put all our eggs into some basket creating some... whatever it is we're creating, totally separated from the public that, if we don't use to our advantage, will eventually crush us.
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06-01-2013, 05:48 AM Post: #202
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RE: Advertising
These things are not mutually exclusive either. I can help you guys and do my thing. Even if you refuse to help me back lol.
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06-01-2013, 09:33 AM Post: #203
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
(06-01-2013 05:48 AM)Q Wrote:
These things are not mutually exclusive either. I can help you guys and do my thing. Even if you refuse to help me back lol.

My first point is that yes to this, both ways. I expect your eventual help, and offer you mine. Spite is not in me, only shit-disturberness.

I mentioned Neflix because you seemed to be using it as an example of what you wanted to do. As you well mention, I am very much not in a position to judge anybody. Actually, congrats on having that kinda pull, I thought it was more an aspiration (glad it's not quite) than work done. Because that's what I want to know: what direction are you hoping to take this thing?

As for what you think of anarchy and order, booze is chaotic, and so are most drugs. I'm a happy drug addict, I will never accept order fully. You think I'm inviting you to some underground guerilla op? To be droned? No. The kind of thing I'm working on setting up runs only the risk of being pissed on by local authorities in the 1st world, in the 3d nobody gives enough of a shit, I will have space to do things. What I'm working on is simply the decentralization and de-regulation of economic activity. Think of me as a Tea Party asshole if you have to. Except I'm doing things instead of protesting. I guess I'll make a more detailed thread on my plans at some point soon, if nothing else to show you that anarchy is not teenage drama-queenarchy.

So wait for that thread. Atm, I want to know what direction you are hoping to take this thing. I love that you say that both things can coexist because, historically, neither of our sides were willing to be anything but absolute totalitarian. This is proof of what I keep saying that we are in a different historical point now, we understand that we can live with and be different to the most essential details.

Where to know? What- how do you think advertising can be changed for the better? By better I mean beyond good and evil, just less annoying to us.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 11:39 AM Post: #204
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
About the video, I'll see what I can do. For fuck's sake, I don't got the money for all that shit. I'm an anarchist satandamnit.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 11:48 AM Post: #205
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RE: Advertising
I'm not sure that you need money. You might be able to run it through some sort of filter that is online maybe. But also, cheap computer mics cost like 5 bucks.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 11:49 AM Post: #206
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RE: Advertising
I will explain the future vision you requested better tonight. Right now, I am getting drunk.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 02:48 PM Post: #207
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That's a 5$ mic recording. Well, mic/camera, maybe that explains it. I'm lazy as fuck with sound editing as all else, but I am using some new drugs I was made aware of, anti-epileptics lol, to try and concentrate my way through learning it without taking, you know, mental responsibility for the weight of the process. Laziness is a vice I value.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 03:00 PM Post: #208
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RE: Advertising
This is getting into something else, but in today's day and age, interfacing with the net is one of those things I don't mind investing in.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 03:03 PM Post: #209
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RE: Advertising
Day in age? Day and age? I dunno.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 03:18 PM Post: #210
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Oh dear, I'm gonna have to go find some booze of my own, I believe.



pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
(Not meant sarcastically)
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 04:45 PM Post: #212
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
Fuck.

Capitalism.

That's just how I feel. Consider me the corrupted sidekick who helps out for the joke of it, plus some kind of trust.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 04:46 PM Post: #213
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I can put my hate for capitalism aside for my love of productive work, too.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 05:35 PM Post: #214
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RE: Advertising
There is a big difference between capitalism and technology.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-01-2013, 05:53 PM Post: #215
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
I know that.

Advertising is more married to one than the other.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-02-2013, 05:47 AM Post: #216
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RE: Advertising
So? I mean, I would have bought a computer, etc, - the things I have personally deemed worthy - without seeing any ads.

Case in point: the more efficient you try to be with tech, the more brand loyalty diminishes. Cause you're trying to be pragmatic. There are whole websites that number crunch this stuff.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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06-02-2013, 11:20 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2013 11:20 AM by pezer.) Post: #217
pezer Offline
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RE: Advertising
That seems logical to me in an open sourcey way...

I like the way this is going.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-02-2013, 12:10 PM Post: #218
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RE: Advertising
Me too. My response for this thread has turned into a full on article. It may not answer all your questions but it does a better job than I have so far

 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:27 pm

Philosophos rap
Word, time to mix up some beatz in da spirit of a love of truth. Post your lyrix here, or spin a heavy beat and link dat shit. Respect.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-14-2013, 09:49 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2013 09:50 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: Philosophos rap
(05-14-2013 02:19 AM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
Word, time to mix up some beatz in da spirit of a love of truth. Post your lyrix here, or spin a heavy beat and link dat shit. Respect.

https://soundcloud.com/fixedcross/1000-roads-from-rome
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05-14-2013, 09:59 AM Post: #3
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RE: Philosophos rap
https://soundcloud.com/fixedcross/loaded-instrumental

both of these I did the keys and my neighbor the Brazilian Machine behind the Trillion Keys the drums.
I wrote some lyrics to them but I'm not a rapper as it turns out.
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05-14-2013, 10:27 AM Post: #4
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Nice, I like these, especially the second one.

Post your lyrics here if you want.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-17-2013, 10:56 AM Post: #5
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RE: Philosophos rap
Yeah. Good.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-17-2013, 11:01 AM Post: #6
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RE: Philosophos rap
Catchy.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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05-17-2013, 07:16 PM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Any way to get those in discreet audio files?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-19-2013, 01:07 AM (This post was last modified: 05-19-2013 01:41 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Philosophos rap
Thanks, glad you enjoy them.
You can download them here -
http://ge.tt/474i30h

My lyrics are old... I prefer words from the future.
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05-19-2013, 07:03 AM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Showdown tonight? Tomorrow?

Bring da muthafucking ruckuts?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-21-2013, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 05-21-2013 08:59 PM by pezer.) Post: #10
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Rap or not, let's do this thing today. Say any time that ends before 10 hours from when I'm posting this?



RE: Philosophos rap
Okay what? A battle?
Keep your snake saddled... critters creep, chatter... riddle deep, shattered sleep patterns... eat my feces? At least your beast can reason, not like Jesus, preaching the thesis of evil, reaching the ears of no one within the walls of Sodom.... Wood rise in the East like Hillary Rodham... Boredom... whores and randomly fathomed morale like the fantom of Gotham... Lust in sloth, trust in God... roll in the mud, slurp off a slurpie, pig banks, break rank, say thanks for the stank in the back of your truck, trick trouble, lick lucks feathers at get-togethers... meadow of hard-boiled recoiling hearts and minds, there's no end to the grind, star-staring stumbling, starting to find, no gate to the End, no making amends marks a limit - this Aardvark is finished, replenished, the Earth cut up in trenches all men on the fences, who's still against us?
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05-26-2013, 05:51 AM Post: #12
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RE: Philosophos rap
Another beat
https://soundcloud.com/fixedcross/the-madness
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05-26-2013, 08:24 AM Post: #13
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Another absolutely dope track.

The madness... It takes me down paths of paths to find the forrest, to recognize the past for the absolute wilderness it is, to see my father's face and see a child frustrated.... yo...
Growing up in Babilon is the greatest trip so far, yet primitive, like licking a broken tipped jar, like smoking big cigars,
and inhaling,
and forgeting for a moment that the lack of danger is only danger this or that way,
The word you're thinking of is "castrate"
You just want to get your caste straight... It ain't happenin... Fuck you, your crew, and your momma's cat's friends.
It's evolution motherfucker, spread your ass straight. Or get ready to castrate. Or give up your apish ways and follow me, help get the world baked.

I don't relate to the abuser, I make him harmless like a bunny rabbit, then I call him "sir," then I smoke weed behind his back, then I tell him "yeah, sure, in a minute."
I plot beyond the imaginings of those who only see plots, and even though my lies catch up to me,
they were forged in a mill not accessible to (crack)pots.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-30-2013, 02:23 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 02:27 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #14
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
I wrote this to that last beat you posted, Fixed.


Fuck this line, see me in time as my ideas climb
toward this edifice, no I a'int no Sisyphus
I don't speak lies in rhymes bitch this shit is an inferno
discern as I cross-breed your need with what you can't take back
so feed on a matter of fact its a fact that you act wired
whenever you remember to slip back inside your attire
makes you believe you'd rest easy easily forgettin' your greed
heart stopped beatin' & they got you still believin' in preachin'
just like you were seven or popped pills & mopped spills
dropped frills these chills leave you penniless your soul
mind and spirit are restless
Detest this, you gotta run down the rope of your last hope
toward the darkness of what lurks without force or remorse,
But you gave your life anyway, sold your brain for a legacy
proof for a fantasy, your art for a last chance to be lazy
sit back takin' naps sippin' that death drippin' flat on your back
as that smoke makes you fly a dope high delirium whack
you remember nothin' of forever, so tricked out with fashion
you've bled it all into a serum of popular passion
serious, so you said what use for the void?
trace back suffuse it or just abuse the ignored.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-30-2013, 04:43 PM Post: #15
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
Not peace but more war,
Spread the butter on the fore of the torture norm.
I have no mercy left for the pennyless souls and if
Mine be one then let it fall.

I do not dream of escape,
The darkness includes me fucking unawares, it is mine, I am theirs
Fucking gringos searching for the better sales

No, bro, holy fuck, oh, yo!
I never rebelled, my will was tragic,
like magic, not mallic, but callic,
supercalifragilisticalidallic, I don't stay down with you, fucking manic.

Time to step up to the truck of the madman's trance,
You thought you were a block of big duck puck, surrendering the mud blood's bad mind pot luck
You were mistaken, I never fall,
you are looking down and down, silly fuck, you think it's up-doors.

The big diffrence b'tween the dance and escape is that
Escape seeks an end,

I fear death because my time is short, too many dumb fucks trying to ignore the
Smart fuck ton of truck fun, son, no sun the light is out of soul of say-ton

The trap you think to cover is the gateway fo tomorrow,
there is no better way, I can offer only greater sorrow.

But once you cross the gate of death and kiss the zombie and hug your morrow,
What seems like dispair is the creative mind held back by rules engenderd by

Nothing but evo, fucking evo, nothing but evo fucking natural selection
there is no God, it just worked, and worked, and now it works only tomorrow be
cause you got scared and tranced the doors of great sorrow,

It takes hard work, the world is really poorer tha
n any criptic imagination can hope, it's dope, can you fathom, broda?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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05-30-2013, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 05-30-2013 04:48 PM by pezer.) Post: #16
pezer Offline
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RE: Philosophos rap
I hope you don't mind, but this one is definetly the dopest, and my last verses were retroactively made for it.

https://soundcloud.com/fixedcross/keep-her-steady
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-01-2013, 08:03 AM (This post was last modified: 06-01-2013 09:36 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #17
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RE: Philosophos rap
Excellent, great lyrics ("discern as I cross-breed your need with what you can't take back" if I had to pick one line). If either of you would consider recording them, you're welcome to use the beats. I put them up for download.




Mind theories
Substance dualism, property dualism, ideal monism, reductive physicalism, non-reductive physicalism, epiphenomenalism, anomalous monism, functionalism, psychofunctionalism, panpsychism, panprotopsychism.



Can't we all just get along?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-04-2013, 11:04 PM Unread post Post: #2
pezer Offline
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RE: Mind theories
I always felt the same way. That is, we can have it both ways if we gorram please, one of the happier consequences of the death of God. Nietzsche was a master of not choosing.



Which is better/worse?
This was brought up in my topic on the banality of belief, but I think it deserves its own topic.

Is it better to believe in god if god is not real, or is it better to not believe in god if god is real? Why?


Hint: if you are about to claim that you know god exists/probably exists then you'd better be able to substantiate that somehow. I don't prescribe your means of doing so, but some manner of demonstration better be forthcoming.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-04-2013, 10:06 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 10:08 PM by JSS.) Post: #2
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RE: Which is better/worse?
(06-04-2013 08:18 PM)ChainOfBeing Wrote:
This was brought up in my topic on the banality of belief, but I think it deserves its own topic.

Is it better to believe in god if god is not real, or is it better to not believe in god if god is real? Why?
Believing in the truth is not necessarily the best thing at any one given moment. So your question isn't really about believing in a truth, but rather in a specific idea.

The problem is that you have to define exactly what you mean by "god" in your question in order to yield a good answer. To me;

A god ≡ who/whatever incontestably determines what can or cannot be concerning a situation.
The God ≡ Who/Whatever incontestably determines All that can or cannot be.

So you have asked (from my perspective) is it is better to believe in your lack of alternatives when you really don't have that lack of alternatives or to disbelieve in your lack of alternatives when you really do have that lack.

If you believe that you cannot do something when you really could have done it, then you defeat yourself because you do not try what could have worked.

If you don't believe that you can't do something that you really can't do, then you continually attempt things that will never work. That often leads to damage or death.

So you stand a good chance of loosing either way. I think the final resolve would depend on your situation (another name for your God). If your situation allows for you not achieving much without great threat, then believing that you can't and thus not doing so, would probably not yield much damage. But if your situation requires that you achieve or else, then it would seem that you had better have a good grasp on what is actually possible.

So as usual... "it all depends".
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06-04-2013, 11:18 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Which is better/worse?
Better not to believe in God if God is real because, by all accounts, the guy was a real fucker. At least we get to give Him the Finger before we get our eternal damnation.

I heard a charming idea from a jesuit the other day though, that there is a hell but that his God is so cool that he is positive that it is empty!

In all seriousness, I believe in the non-choice of belief. If you look at the evidence, you already know what you think. Faith is all about not looking at the evidence. There is a so-far mostly unacknowledged inescapability in the forming of opinions, all we can really be choosy about is what prime materials we use to feed our opinionating machines.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-05-2013, 07:21 AM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 08:12 AM by JSS.) Post: #4
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RE: Which is better/worse?
(06-04-2013 10:06 PM)JSS Wrote:
So as usual... "it all depends".
.. on your situation.. on your God. Wink

Anytime you ask for the true answer to a question, you have asked of your God = "the truth of your situation".

And a short side track..
Unfortunately there is within your situation something once called "Man". Man tends to be a God-wannabe formed of the hue of Man once called "humans". When Man becomes wanty, prideful, lusting, glutinous, vain. or such, Man was called a "low Man", "woe-Man", or more commonly, a "woMan".

When Man has come to his height due to being humble to his real situation and thus "enlightened", it is called "Day". After the height of Man's Day comes the Eve, the falling of the Day, a time of gluttony, vanity, lusting, wanting, being unhumble to reality, being a woMan (once named Eve for that reason).

Thus immediately after the speculated height of Man has arrived, it is time to prepare of the eve of Man, time to prepare for feminism. By promoting such a turn of attitudes, the fall of Man comes more quickly.

After the fall of the enlightenment period of Man comes "Night", a time of confusion called "darkness". During the Night, Man is propelled into every kind of belief and disbelief, not being able to tell up from down, right from wrong, good from bad... chaos, misfortune, disease, misery and death.

But then, if Man survives his Night, comes a new Morning (a mourning for all that was lost during the Night) wherein Man becomes humble to the reality of his situation once again. And then from such humility to reality, comes a new Day of enlightenment.

In the new Day, new beliefs are founded by all that has survived the Days prior and through the Nights, thus each new Day is a bit greater than those before. Man's enlightenment reaches a higher level.. and thus so does his fall.

The theory was that eventually Man would reach such high enlightenment that he would actually achieve the ability to sustain the Day and never fall again.. no more feminism, no more vanity, wanting, gluttony... no more chaos, confusion, and darkness.. no more God-wannabe.

So by design, there is a time for believing in Reality/Truth/God and time for disbelieving in Reality/Truth/God. Which is better is the one that fits the time you live in.

The Sun lightens the Day. The Moon, a dim reflection of the Sun vaguely lights the Night, guiding with illusions;
"Cold hearted Orb that rules the Night,
Removes the colors from our sight
Red is gray, yellow white
..we decide which is right"

..and which is merely an illusion.
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06-05-2013, 10:29 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Which is better/worse?
Must you save God at any cost? Can you not use more appropriate words for the wildly general and relativistic aspects of personality you keep wanting to call God?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-05-2013, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 01:26 PM by JSS.) Post: #6
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RE: Which is better/worse?
(06-05-2013 10:29 AM)pezer Wrote:
Must you save God at any cost? Can you not use more appropriate words for the wildly general and relativistic aspects of personality you keep wanting to call God?

"Must" you do the contrary?
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06-05-2013, 01:40 PM Post: #7
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RE: Which is better/worse?
I have linguistic precision on my side. What do you have on yours?
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-05-2013, 01:40 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 01:43 PM by pezer.) Post: #8
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RE: Which is better/worse?
Also, I read The Anticrist so yes, I must.

I recommend it. Lot of clarifying and cleansing.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-05-2013, 10:36 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 10:36 PM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: Which is better/worse?
(06-05-2013 01:40 PM)pezer Wrote:
I have linguistic precision on my side. What do you have on yours?

Knowledge... intelligence.
"I recommend it. Lot of clarifying and cleansing. "
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06-06-2013, 10:26 AM Unread post Post: #10
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RE: Which is better/worse?
More like dancing and avoidance, as usual.

I love you.

But this is dance and avoidance as usual.



Methodological detritus
Over-specialization kills the ability to think, unless this specialization emerges as a necessity of logos to a developing activity otherwise unable to effectively render itself. The problem is that most specialization is not produced like this, it is produced with no necessity to thought and with no or almost no activity - the mind is taught to "memorize" (think now about the true implied meaning of such a term). Specialization of this kind produces petrification, estrangement and affective insanities, not to mention further legitimizing the method itself.

This brings us to the limit: there is no terminological opposition to the concept of philosophy. Thought is either philosophic or it is.... (passive, dogmatic, dead, pathological, superficial, rigid, delusional, vain, blind, weak, cowardly).

Create a new concept-term to single-handedly encapsulate the method opposed to that of philosophy. Let's make this a central task of ours.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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06-07-2013, 03:38 AM Post: #2
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RE: Methodological detritus
Agreed. I had to go over my own list of tentatives to jump off as from a trampoline and see the magnitude of this task. Anarchy, insanity, lazyness, stubbornness... None of these encapsulate properly, and by a lot.

Hmm....


The banality of belief
Whosoever believes in me, shall not perish, but will have eternal life.. No one comes to the Father except through me... On the third day he rose again, and is seated at the right hand of the Father... For God so loved the world..

Rubbish.

How can anyone not feel embarrassed to say such things, to be such a mindless parrot of clear idiocy? The psychology of belief traps men in a web of dishonest self-shame, plundered from both directions, the mortal soul itself in terrible crisis.

The best evidence for god is that people still believe in the idiocy of gods, and somehow people are still here. A joke, of course. But in all seriousness, it would be good to understand this mechanism. Survival is not guaranteed, for any thing, even man. The necessity of the eternal object of transcendental consciousness notwithstanding.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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05-14-2013, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2013 08:24 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #2
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RE: The banality of belief
I take no sides, I only gather evidence. I've gathered more positive evidence of God than negative. That is no miracle as nothing would comprise negative evidence, and I can use a lot of ambiguous events as possible positive evidence - which is more than nothing. So that's why I just said that. I mean it, though. I want to see an attempt at proof for your position, otherwise it will be drowned out by reality, and the suggestions spawned by tectonics, which make it all too easy to believe in sublime layering of organization and very difficult to believe in a singular and lineair order of time, change, influence.
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05-14-2013, 08:28 AM (This post was last modified: 05-14-2013 08:32 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: The banality of belief
That is not to say that I believe in heaven. I do believe in the possibility of karma, as elusive as it is - karma as a causal 'plate', context/'dimension'/system of lesser density -- and in fact again, the tectonics model made this even more reasonable to than it had already seemed intuitively.
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05-14-2013, 08:32 PM Post: #4
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RE: The banality of belief
You yourself did not make the case here for God other than... to say that there is a case to be made!
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06-04-2013, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 06-04-2013 08:46 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #5
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RE: The banality of belief
Yes Fixed Cross, the benefits of belief are many and undeniable. But it is still a banality.

The very act of believing stimulates self-valuing, and is this stimulation. On many levels spiritual beliefs function to gather and harmonize psychological tensions, disturbances, irregularities, dissonance and the heat of friction. Belief gives instinctuality over into a system of regulation. However, there is a catch, as all of us here know. So my concern is to explore the benefits and how to understand them and potentiate them without the harmful side effects.

To your point regarding the possibility of a god/karmic sort of tectonic plane of existence, absolutely this cannot be ruled out. There are many unknowns and many orders of unknowns. But I base the degree of my work and affirmation on the degree to which a thing becomes reality to/for me, in any way. This has worked out very well for me so far, and the alternative, while holding open more possible commune with the unknown, introduces error and blindness.

As I continue to learn and develop in every way I will certainly come face to face with this god, if it exists. If it does not exist then surely I will never meet it, because my method allows me to know the difference. And of course the condition of such knowledge is the greatest kind of patience as well as the greatest kind of responsibility.

Which is worse, that god exists but one never meets him, or that god does not exist but one lives always in the "meeting" with the non-existent? I honestly have not developed this question fully yet, but I find the two sides and the intersection between them highly fascinating. Intellectuals and scientists on one side, Southern Baptists on the other. Which of these has sacrificed more of his humanity?


Edit: interestingly the necessity from tectonics does not imply any higher being or plane of causes than that of the human mind itself. Consciousness and what emerges as larger tendencies of balance and order, ie societies from within the natural functionings of environment and bodies constitutes the only necessarily highest causal plane of reality. It would be a mistake to read tectonics as implying a sort of continuum of reality/causes extending up to "the gods" or into vastly unknowable territories.

Of course tectonics does not necessarily rule out anything which is not, well, necessarily ruled out. But it does pair possibility to possibility, necessity to necessity, and so far nothing speaks to anything greater than the same (localized-localizable) consciousness ubiquitous of/to all things in some quantity-organization-dependency or another.
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06-05-2013, 03:17 AM Post: #6
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RE: The banality of belief
For me, it is a historical question. What was the genesis of the idea of God? Certainly, not the lofty (and I mean that as a compliment) concepts you are both generating here. God was a simpler thing back in the day: that back-of-the-head feeling that the village patron is always watching.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-05-2013, 10:56 PM (This post was last modified: 06-05-2013 10:57 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #7
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RE: The banality of belief
But Chain of Being, when I say karma I am in no way thinking of God. It simply means an extension of a causal order - actions have consequences in terms of the atoms they move, in terms of the molecules they move, in terms of the organisms they move, in terms of the politics they move and perhaps also in terms of the meanings they move. You can take that word, meaning, as broadly as you wish - as karma certainly isn't a downright moral question - I could not believe in that as I do not see a possibility for an objective morality.

At this juncture, belief that something is not the case if I have not confirmed it only applies to domains where I have methods of confirmation. If I don't, then I often need to believe for a while in the possibility in order for it to either or not manifest. This is how I work with occultism, and with things like the Tarot. I find it highly peculiar how accurate, how perfectly accurate in fact, readings are when energy is invested in them, against how random they are when energy is left out.

I once demonstrated to a friend that I was adept at the tarot. I was high, and bluffing, mainly to myself. I said - look, I am going to draw only Great Arcana's. (22 out of 78). And sure enough I kept drawing them, one after the other, until I stopped at the eighth card, a bit shocked. To me, this is an example of possible meaning-causality. Determination on a scale of meaning.

If I would have to bet my life either for or against this existing, I would bet it for. That is to say, I have not been able to confirm that it does not exist, I have failed to confirm that in the end all is reducible to colliding particles - I suspect (as opposed to believe) that there is a certain "web of order" in which all causalities intertwine.

This is how I have gone my own way with your tectonics idea. Rest assured though, no God has entered the picture. No creator-God or Supreme Entity. As you know, value ontology (most specifically the cosmology as described in the Tower) makes it impossible to account for such an entity.
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06-06-2013, 10:49 AM Post: #8
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RE: The banality of belief
Yes. I like karma in that sense, too, though I use karma as a mistreated whore which I beat around and expect nothing but foul things from. It keeps me sharp.

It also respects a moment of illumination I had that reflects your experience of the Tarot. I'd like to share it.

It happened, as with you, though with far less bravery, as magick (whatever you want to call it) was creeping into my scientific consciousness. I was on the second day of an acid trip that would not end, it seemed to have decided to stick around! The first day, I had experienced sitting in a pivotal point of the apartment, away from rooms with people, thinking loiudly for a guy that had creeped under my skin in the bad way to get the fuck out. I stopped, wondering if my psychic powers were maybe actually real and scared by the amount of force I was inflicting on lesser people. The next day, day 0, the guy mentioned slyly how a certain someone had been screaming for him to gtfo. As anybody that watched Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas knows, however, one can easily speak one's thoughts on acid without realizing it, so I made no conclusions. But I was half-way to belief.

On day 0, I was freaking out about all the things about society I hate, that I could see manifested in the very proximate world of mine. I was sitting in a weed circle, when a charmingly weak guy started speaking my thoughts, and expressing them with my feelings, words, grammatical structure! I was shocked. So shocked that my system started grasping for what was going on, and I started literally reading the mind of anybody I could look at.

The next day, still way more high than I could understand (of course, I hadn't been able to sleep yet, either) I kept trying to explain it.

It finally hit me.

Acid mostly increases your perception ridiculously. What was it that I was reading? What ink and paper led me to the private thoughts, words and all, of others?

It was my heightened perception of their slightest facial muscle movements, as well as an equally ridiculous perception of the meaning of the minutia of the body language.

This, I believe, is how magick is tethered to the chain of particle collisions, and how you are able to conjure the power of the Tarot. I think Alejandro Jodorowski knows this too. It is the power of your subconsciousness of the material world.
Science is found in the question "how do you know?"
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06-11-2013, 06:21 AM (This post was last modified: 06-11-2013 06:25 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #9
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RE: The banality of belief
Very interesting story. I've never had it go that far, but then I've never done acid.

Let me take the other position, which comes natural to me - the one expounded by Huxley in the Doors of Perception. He proposes that the brain is a filter, rendering down the raw informational data radiating around in the cosmos down to the sensory-relatable. If this filter malfunctions, or is hiated, telepathy but also madness b ecomes possible. I am fairly sure that this is what was going on with Abstract.

My position is a core-conservatism based off value ontology. I am no longer a materialist, as I've reasoned value to be causally prior to matter. By the purified VO logic, matter cannot exist without what I understand as value, which is a derivative of self-valuing. You could call a SV an informational circuitry.

So the hardline position is this: whatever has the nature of value - this includes linguistic semantics such as the as yet not sufficiently categorized substance of your experience on acid - is ontologically 'solid' enough to be accounted for without referring to matter.

Such a position is in fact more consistent with the status of neuroscience, which ultimately holds that words, and not synapses, are the bottom line in behavioral programming - which means causing of essential "existence" - being, character.

Self-value is in many cases similar to character. Character can to a good degree be described as a standard for values, a 'means' for value to exist. The stronger the character, the more reliable and universal the (+/-)value it evokes.

We must take into close account the essentially plurifying nature of the concept, Character, - in the most rudimentary descriptions man has made of himself and the world, he has used contradicting qualities in Persona's, as the characters (self-valuings) in life are causing waves of value (moving away from some, toward others, in many tectonic counter-moving layers) -- Why the fuck is my upstairs neighbour drumming on his floor, and why is his rhythm completely off - (He draws the Donald Duck) - ah, he has a djembe. Fuck me, that is an asset to my living situation. That's all I needed. Jesus. Thankfully I'm off to Spain tomorrow. Fuck he is getting enthusiastic -- waves which are seen as a "spectacle of meaning" an image of emoting, a narrative. The narrative for example of a guy living on top of another guy and playing a drum, not being able to make music, only causing annoyingly clumsy thumping. There is a story right there - many things can happen next, all emotional, all revolving around two contradicting values: "Music" (play with a skin on a piece of wood) and silence (peace, space) , which is being disturbed, taken away.

What was I saying? Ah yes, telepathy. I have a telepathy/psychotic (the two are bound by definition) problem with the Geese in front of my window in the canal. These fucking creatures - Romans preferred them to watchdogs, it was due to the Geese that Rome wasn't captured) they respond to violence in thought. Of course I can not verify this, I can not even verify the violence of my thoughts - but it is just so consistent that I basically agree with them every time they bark. This is what makes it really annoying. And yes, this is psychotic. That is the problem - once you're truly into the occult powerstructure, your rational mind is bypassed every time the proper information isn't available there. So both in cases of error and of astute accuracy, the message is let through. This drives many men insane -- okay where are my headphones -- and that it has not drive me insane is because I keep empiricizing, I keep keeping track of what plays out and what doesn't. Tarot plays out nearly as consistently as gravity, even when it's online - except the dimensionality is split - you don't make three or nine or a number of decisions in a row, but one. And indeed one online reading is often comparable to one real-drawn card. Thence, the future can not be predicted, but the present moment can be described with astounding profundity.

So what carries all this? Materialism assumes for all causality a single carrier - tectonics makes no such assumption. We simply look at the causality itself - as a number of mechanisms are mutually potentiated off of each other - and observe the context in which this potency has meaning, coheres, thus exists as power/action/essence. The field of 'Aethir' is nothing else than 'context'. Who is to say the universe is less than infinitely fractalized? If it is infinitely so, then there is no way that the five senses are really the only means to observe actuality and to learn of surrounding truths and circumstances. Or? Be honest. Don't dogmatize matter. Don't desanctify it by assuming it to be nothing special. It is a special case of value.

Value can not be desancfitied even with its universalization. Illustrative of how I take value ontology as a more solid truth than materialism - an angelic science, conductive of life and not imposing on it, yet consistent and logical and a discipline contradicting other disciplines, like science contradicts Bible-study, VO contradicts the axiomatic statement that "matter is the causal ground of all things".

Which is no problem as the statement is both unprovable and unnecessary.


 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:30 pm

I have it!
Dudes, all these years... Don't respond yet. Poke at it some. Feel its edges, its odds and ends.

International cities.

This one's for you, Gobbo. Not to dump a load on you, though, I will be back to do work on this.

But now, I must sleep. Dreams of chaos await!
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01-11-2013, 03:19 AM Post: #2
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RE: I have it!
I think it would be more interesting to talk about sovereign city states.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-11-2013, 06:45 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 06:46 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: I have it!
I thought about it for a while and I think that it's a sound idea. In thinking about how an international city could be legislated I quickly arrive at the conclusion that it should be self-regulated, 'sovereign'. You can not have the laws of different nations apply in one city.

A question: where would such cities be located? It seems ideally they would sit on geographically exposed places like peninsula's or islands, maybe spanning like a bridge across rivers or lakes separating two nations - or perhaps indeed they would be built on artificially created land. In any case they can not really sit in the middle of a nation.
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01-11-2013, 07:22 AM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2013 07:35 AM by pezer.) Post: #4
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RE: I have it!
Sure, sovereign city states have more potential for a kind of philosophical abstraction conductive to understanding anti-authoritarian values...

But the international city has no values of its own. All it seeks to do is reproduce the society we have to-day in a context of subtle differences. A small, evolutionary step towards a world order that doesn't require Stalins or Bushes. It can work because it's gritty, full of the shit and dirt of today. Not to suggest that dirt and shit are specific to our time, but I digress.

The international city is a fellowship of people seeking alternatives, not for philosophical reasons, but for small, every-day ones. A tax difference here, a publicity legislation there, an awkwardness of travel, a discomfort with nationalism, obligatory this-and-thats... Philosophers can't communicate with the not, but the not can communicate with philosophers.
(01-11-2013 06:45 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
I thought about it for a while and I think that it's a sound idea. In thinking about how an international city could be legislated I quickly arrive at the conclusion that it should be self-regulated, 'sovereign'. You can not have the laws of different nations apply in one city.

International cities have no centralized law. The kind of person moving there is exactly the kind of person that has no need for such paternity, all legislation is circumstantial. That's one of the beautiful things about them: they don't seek to replace paternal nation-states, but to exist along-side them. But, even further, this non-centralized legislation implies that the city can only exist, can only survive with the purest of commercial justifications. No idealism supports its formal politics, internal or external.


(01-11-2013 06:45 AM)Fixed Cross Wrote:
A question: where would such cities be located? It seems ideally they would sit on geographically exposed places like peninsula's or islands, maybe spanning like a bridge across rivers or lakes separating two nations - or perhaps indeed they would be built on artificially created land. In any case they can not really sit in the middle of a nation.

Right, they would only be able to be established at commercial cross-roads, whether pre-existant or, as you say, made into being. The careful negotiation of tensions between nation-states is the entirety of the possibility of an international city.



"Entiendo pero No Comparto"
Agree? Disagree? Agree to disagree? Disagree to agree?

What is most interesting is to agree and feel differently.

Oh, the shit normal people miss for that old attachment to the idea that truth and emotion are both unidimensional and heterogeneous...! That Schopenhauer shtick (if you'll forgive the regression) of the will as homogenization of the unknown beast.

In a way, I accuse magic of the same crime. One could say Schopenhauer was just way lazier.

In general, historical hierarchical structures have created pressures for the idealization of the unknown, the lying on top of what isn't incorporated into our consciousness...

...But it's right there, provided just to us by your lady of evolution, just lying in wait, asking to be unleashed...

Let us not shit ourselves, gentlemen, ladies, there is much we are entrusting on other structures when we accept "souls" and "wills," "rights" and "emotions." This is today's major field of philosophy, if you have any brains; is it any coincidence that a contradiction of it was just waiting there, fully formed, previous and yet a reaction?

And here is where magic (on the Crowley level) is a very brave and science advancing thing. Especially in the US, where the Nordic-Christ spirit, the Santa Claus cult has held such tight grip for such long time.

Of course, I would never take that step Crowley took of becoming so closely responsible for the evolution of so many people on that level. I guess you have to be a saint in some fucked up real sense. Madmen and madwomen make fantastic advances.

Me, I'm with Nietzsche: content to watch the last flakes of the world's night snow, perhaps making some bonfires here and there.

Quote:
Against Visionaries.—The visionary denies the truth to himself, the liar only to others.



"Do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
I don't know about a single thing else, but here I agree so strongly with Crowley that I would ask my occultist friends what progress they have made, or what methods they have come up with, to further the establishment of this legal structure.
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01-17-2013, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 01-17-2013 08:24 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #2
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RE: "Do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
We had an interesting chat about this a little while ago. I think there is a double meaning hidden in this phrase where under the whole of the law (being love), if you abandon love you do not need to hold steadfast to the literal meaning here: obey that law. That is not to say that is what Crowley did, necessarily. I'm equally as fond of it looking at love as the literal law of the universe; really, I think that is the primary divide between Luciferians and non-Luciferians. They are after love of the will itself, which is slightly different.

So basically I think that Crowley nails it, or rather, Aiswass.

As for the establishment: look around. There is a group of people very clearly doing what they want, but it would appear they are bereft of any sort of love except for love of their will to power, which strengthens my point above.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-17-2013, 09:03 AM Post: #3
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RE: "Do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
(01-17-2013 08:22 AM)Gobbo Wrote:
I'm equally as fond of it looking at love as the literal law of the universe;

I feel a special spirit recently told me the same thing, or something similar. First of all, human love, even in its best form, is not much compared to the higher forms of love which exist in higher beings which have evolved much more than we. The universal order, or universal purpose, according to the spirit, was a form of love which produces the highest wisdom. This form of love is the creative understanding of union and progression of life. I asked the spirit if it wanted anything from me as a return favor, for its help during hard times, and it simply said to be kind to everyone and help everyone. "Helping everyone helps me and my cause", is not exactly what it said, but that was the general principal.

Also as I have been trying to progress up the divine-like realms, using bilocations/fractions of myself, I noticed that as you get higher, it gets harder to go up farther. Each level is more complex and intense than the others. It started out easy to go up from one stage to the next, then it got more difficult. At the higher levels of it, there is the unification, which I also called the divergence and the convergence. At this level of creative source reality, the pure essences of good consciousness begin to combine with eachother, and all eminations align, so that a balanced amount of awareness, love, justice, goodness, etc. All combines. There are also cluster beings up there, and shared souls, complex types of angels, etc. Allot to take in. But one of the main qualities you must have to get there is pure love.

So I'd say the higher universal law of purpose, is the unification of all sorts of good forces, each in proper balance with the other. And love is a big part of it. However, it is a perfected love, tempered by wisdom, insight and enlightenment, not a suicidal and extremist form of love.
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01-17-2013, 09:17 AM Post: #4
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RE: "Do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
Quote:
Allot to take in.

That made me laugh, but in a good way.

Danny boy, you are awesome. I'm glad you're here at the forum.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-18-2013, 06:51 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: "Do as thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law."
I'm looking for steel here, boys, not flowers. Flowers will not help against those who would support other legal frameworks (and, if you haven't noticed, ours is lagging a bit behind...).

Or maybe it would? Do you maintain that the very love that that law represents is the prerequisite for its establishment?

"As for the establishment: look around. There is a group of people very clearly doing what they want, but it would appear they are bereft of any sort of love except for love of their will to power, which strengthens my point above. "

These people are doing as they will lawlessly, then, even according to your interpretation of law as love. I'm talking about establishing a law, not a behavior. Law is communist (if you see what I mean).





The Savage that You Don't See, The Satanism I Encourage
Because I am a son of Spain instead of England, I have more Savagery. Maybe it's the tropics I was made in, maybe the Arab blood in me. I personally think Mills got it pretty well with his Protestant v Catholic distinction; though having seasons, as Fixed Cross has lucubrated, has a definite incidence on philosophical awareness.

In any case, if you have an hour or two to spare and want to see what an old-school Venezuelan Nietzschean can tell you about yourself, read this (translated with flair).

Slaves can have dignity, hip hop will never die, patience is laziness. The will to power is a generator, not a thing-in-itself.






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Where the Communists Fucked Up
Instead of pitching the communist revolution as a vehicle for freedom, they pitched it as the vehicle for the "new man."

Now, if we could just...
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01-16-2013, 11:59 AM Post: #2
Dannerz Offline
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
Direct democracy is the true version of communism.

Crap communism is when the government owns everything and claims to be in the people's best interests but usually isn't.
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01-16-2013, 12:40 PM (This post was last modified: 01-16-2013 12:42 PM by W.C..) Post: #3
W.C. Away
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
The Communists fucked up when they did not realise why they were going bankrupt. Subsequently, they went bankrupt.

...It sounds eerily familiar.
— W.C.

'Through the dark decades of your pain, this will seem like a memory of Heaven.'
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01-16-2013, 12:53 PM Post: #4
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
They went bankrupt because they were supported by the usual banking cartel, who then kind of turned on them. Communism was an experiment. A successful one in the minds of many of political thinkers.

I forget which President it was, but one of them said something like "Communism isn't dead; it's just going to sleep for a while."

Actually reading that, I think it was something different, as that sounds like a father talking to his daughter. But you get my point.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-19-2013, 12:33 PM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
No I think I have it right. It's the tabula rasa aspect of their new man thing, they don't understand the immense stupidity involved in chucking away what we already have.

Communism needs to be the proletariat's way into the game, not the reseting of the game itself, if it wants to be of any worth to anybody.
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01-23-2013, 06:08 AM Post: #6
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
Didn't someone once refer to Democracy as "the great experiment" orsomethinglikethat?
"Think left and think right and think low and think high. Oh, the thinks you can think up if only you try!"

-Dr. Seuss
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01-23-2013, 08:12 AM (This post was last modified: 01-23-2013 08:12 AM by Gobbo.) Post: #7
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
More like "The Great Work"

ba dum tsch

#thenumbers #mason

That reminds me, I need someone to run the Twitter.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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01-29-2013, 07:55 PM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
Democracy... but for the love of atheism, why do you want to be ruled?!
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01-29-2013, 10:12 PM Post: #9
W.C. Away
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RE: Where the Communists Fucked Up
Indeed... Listen, little man!






pezer Offline
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A tentative approach to post-feminism
The Adam and Eve story has it wrong. It was man who fell first, and for a long time he kept woman from falling too. But with the time and built up rage, we beat woman and abused her, and eventually she had enough and decided, demanded to fall.

Woman must be baptized now, and small children are the last remaining angels that aren't made.

Whatever, the less we involve ourselves with that kind of beast-level thinking, the better. Woman's course now is to hold on tight to her wisdom as she tumbles and falls. What will she hear, when she listens with her eyes?
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02-02-2013, 06:26 AM Post: #2
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RE: A tentative approach to post-feminism
If you're saying the sacred feminine has been destroyed, then I agree.

Humanity is almost entirely male. Which is weird, seeing how many emasculated makes there are.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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02-02-2013, 07:17 AM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: A tentative approach to post-feminism
Right, a movement away from the sacred. Women panic and become men, men panic more and become women. Some of us, though, are keeping our wits about us (kind of), and I have seen in women who aren't sacred but remain feminine a smartness that is, well, it's offensive for me to even single it out like that, that's how smart some women are.

Also, living near the heart of the empire (aka the developed world) is emasculating. I guess that gives also another sort of push for feminism, but of a manly kind. Though, truth be told, I don't know if it's worse than the tortured (and torturing) manliness of the lower layers.

Intelligence always thrives on dance. That, to me, is the north star. You can only dance how you can dance, and you can only learn certain other dances if you make certain sacrifices. Women are sacrificing sanctity, lamentably during the rise of shadow-sanctity, but smart people find a way...





Remote Viewing
For those of you not in an order or bound by some vow of secrecy, I would like to know what it takes to effectively view remotely. I hear Dan may have some know how.

The magic that I have had contact with indirectly involves a kind of full metal alchemist law of equal exchange. There is a price to be paid for every magical act. That's about all the shop I know, other than unconnected details here and there and original theories that are more along the lines of primitivist psychology. Perhaps magic is simply the name of all science that is forbidden on subconscious levels, or certain science...

In any case, I'd like to hear your fine occultist opinions on the practice of RV.
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01-31-2013, 11:59 AM Post: #2
Gobbo Offline
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RE: Remote Viewing
Chakra Superstar from ILP claims he AP into the mind of a dog once. I think he said it just happened, though, so that is maybe not that helpful. Regardless it may be easier to learn how to AP, and then RV that way.


http://i.imgur.com/iPP8E.png
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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02-02-2013, 08:43 AM Post: #3
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RE: Remote Viewing
Regular practice helps. Sometimes the soul gives us an edge, sometimes it doesn't. Each soul is different.
There are many means to remotely sense something.

If you have ever seen the show "Weird or What", there was one case where a cat traveled across 4 states and found its original owners. They had moved but left the cat behind somehow. There was a little deformity on the cat's hip, which was on the cat which arrived. It was not a random look-alike cat. Also migrating birds can see energy kinda, at least some types of migrating birds. Maybe it wasn't 4 states. Maybe 3, or 5, but I thought 4.

My own means to remote sensing goes something like this:
I've got a bunch of evolving and replicating servitors. Then I also have familiars. I have some enemies too, but not many anymore. So, I use my inner sight to view the energies which are in my head. The spirits and servies bring in and remove the energies for me. My soul does a bit of work too. The process involves allot of smaller processes.

Sometimes certain laws bind with a soul, sometimes they don't.
Some demons get away with a lot of shit and there is no law binding them.
Other times, people can't use magic to hurt others because some force or spirit has put on safety stuff.

Reality can be restructured, but it's usually easier to restructure ourselves first before we attempt to restructure the outside world. Developing your inner eye can be possible. Some people see pure black when they look within, but others don't. Some people see the thought inside. Similar thought energies are outside. So you can pull in little or large amounts, and process them. That is my method. It has to do with sampling energies. It's easiest for astral type energies and energies in the mental planes. It is harder to view a physical object than a spirit for me, but for other people the reverse may be true.






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There is a silence in the air...
You all know what I mean, it's that silence... Like a cycle. Like the fires of history themselves are mellowing.

Are we to submit to that silly calendar? Perhaps it is already night, but morning always follows night and time waits for no body. The last man is close! We can already grasp his hand. What have you done to overcome him??

And whatever doth fall silent, let it amplify (this way or that). Perhaps we are all just learning to listen with our eyes!

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:37 pm

[quote='pezer' pid='1118' dateline='1360381566']
For years, humans have known that there is an innate directionality to life itself, and the psyche. You can see it in heathen languages like English, where there is little religiosity in lingua; a vast majority of personal action terms can be adjusted with positional cues: put it there, download it, bringing me down, what's up?, can it, watch out!, [video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkCR-w3AYOE[/video]

I have traumatic news for the artist: you are right. It's traumatic because the whole reason the artist made art with this intuition is that he accepted the powers that be telling him that no, that he was wrong, that it was all pretty fancies and the real world is beyond geography, in the realm of God or whatever dangerous mysterious forces kept him safe. But the haunting truth is that you feel directionality in that poetic, metaphorical way because it is innate to your functioning, to your very essence as anything that feels or thinks. The electricity moves this way and that through the immensely intricate system of your neurons (to people comparing brains with computers, consider that the computer has 1 and 0, on and off; while a brain has whatever number and combination of neurotransmitters every time a single electrical unit is activated), always in a chemically directional sense. You are billions of whizzing up, down, sideway and diagonals.

That is, nobody had to teach you directionality, but rather they somehow had to convince you that a part of existence was non-directional, and perhaps convincing you that it was a lie you were taught by appearances and shenanigans was a good enough way. Then you have that false vacuum, and they have a nice warm false God ready to fill it for you. Surprise! The proof of non-directionality via directionality.

Now, there comes a time in every honest philosopher's life when he realizes that to deny the appearent in life is to deny life, which is another way of saying it is to want death. Are you a life guy'gal? Or a death guy'gal? If you are a death person, I understand very deeply your problem. This might help: It's not perfect, but it's as good as I could find. Please, sit down and confront your wish to die. Perhaps you have a good reason not to go through with it, but if you don't, you will feel instant relief the moment you decide to do it. Mostly, though, you will finally feel honest again. We need that, those of us who will survive you, and you can add a tiny smile to your last hours for that thought: you leave having added honesty to the karmic wheels.
(It just hit me that: "suicide, right or wrong?" might be a good debate topic)

The point remains, though, that there seems to be such an applicable concept as inescapably true. What else is inescapably true? Are there degrees? Degrees of degrees?
[/quote]


Quote:
(It just hit me that: "suicide, right or wrong?" might be a good debate topic)

That is an excellent topic. I've found it to be the greatest of all mindfucks.



Retro-active Liberation
"Are you naught but the collection of duties assigned to you and the pleasures there-from derived? What would you find if you decided that this was a door in front of something and opened it?

If occultists have one thing right, it's that you have an inner history and potential that you are magicked into being unfamiliar with. Opposite to the occultists, though, I claim that you can access these things with no external help other than the resources to afford the opportunity cost of sitting down and working it out. Well, drugs will help, but only after the door has been opened.

What would you find if you decided that this was a door in front of something in you and opened it?"

Would this work?
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02-17-2013, 07:59 AM Post: #2
Dannerz Offline
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RE: Retro-active Liberation
I consider liberation as a large category, and there is liberation-from, which has to do with specific things, then there is also self-transcendence, which is done through transformative means or very dedicated self control applied in a certain way. Your OP doesn't seem very specific.
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02-17-2013, 10:35 AM (This post was last modified: 02-17-2013 12:41 PM by pezer.) Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Retro-active Liberation
It's a synecdoche, I'm trying to point something out.

Lucid Dreaming
Gobbo inspired me to embarc on lucid dreaming once again. This time, instead of a journal I'll get bored of, my strategy is to allways think about lucid dreaming for a while before going to sleep. Gobbo already gave me a good link, http://i.imgur.com/iPP8E.png, and this is a good one I found tonight: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/1...reams.html

The mirror portal thing sounds like the most magicky thing. I had a huge portal once and it was red-purple demonic with four-dimensional plasma-fog, preceded by dreams of kissing zombies. I left for something to do with my family and wasn't able to make my way back.

Fucking portals.

Anyway, maybe I'll use this thread as my lucid draming journal.
19 is funny, I'll let you know if I try it.
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02-02-2013, 12:39 PM Post: #2
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
(02-01-2013 08:35 PM)pezer Wrote:
Gobbo inspired me to embarc on lucid dreaming once again. This time, instead of a journal I'll get bored of, my strategy is to allways think about lucid dreaming for a while before going to sleep. Gobbo already gave me a good link, http://i.imgur.com/iPP8E.png, and this is a good one I found tonight: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/1...reams.html

The mirror portal thing sounds like the most magicky thing. I had a huge portal once and it was red-purple demonic with four-dimensional plasma-fog, preceded by dreams of kissing zombies. I left for something to do with my family and wasn't able to make my way back.

Fucking portals.

Anyway, maybe I'll use this thread as my lucid draming journal.
19 is funny, I'll let you know if I try it.

There are some better infographs. I will try to find them.
"I said I was going to get to your calls but...look."
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02-14-2013, 10:23 AM (This post was last modified: 02-14-2013 10:27 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
I actually had a lucid dream/astral travel once where something like this happened. I met a girl who dropped her wallet, I remember it being pink and quite large - and I looked inside and saw her ID, saying a name, street and a number. When I came back out of the dream, I looked in the phonebook, and there was this street, and at this number was a resident with that name.

Not as surprised as I should have been, I called, but nobody answered. This was eight years ago. I forgot about it somehow and just read about it a few weeks back in a diary. I recognized the streetname with surprise - two years ago my sister moved into that street. The number in the girls ID was 78. My sisters house number is 39.
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02-19-2013, 06:19 PM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
Life too tumultuous now to maintain the discipline I need for lucid dreaming. I think I'll use this as a dream portal until I do, y'all feel free to do the same. After all, there is something very poetic about sharing the most primaly subconscious in the most artificially conscious possible medium. Though I guess consciousness and subconsciousness are really quite obsolete terms...

Right now I kind of qualify as poor, whereas I was not growing up. The experience affects your dreams deeply. For example, sometimes I'll simply dream that I find a fiver between the pages of a book somewhere, or baggie, with all the intensity of wishing they were there. Then, when I'm awake, I'll remember I found money or weed somewhere and spend a while looking for it like an idiot. Hell, I've dreamt about eating and getting that stomachy feeling, like a food wet dream.
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02-20-2013, 02:38 AM Post: #5
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RE: Lucid Dreaming
I've been there my friend.




[quote='pezer' pid='1248' dateline='1361799923']
When we reach the heights of philosophy- up there, where all things are light- we know much. Then when we fall, we laugh! Those things are too heavy down here, no wonder they are able to keep the little man down. No amount of erudition...

Something that rimes with Newman, all too Newman?

Watch this video. It's in Spanish, but you will be able to understand it. Fyi, the guy is reading neo-communist theory.




[quote='pezer' pid='1304' dateline='1362019461']
Aye!

And permit me to recommend this as a cherry for your sundae, or maybe a pinch of salt.
[/quote]





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Further Satanic Utterances
Until you accept your enemies' actions as intrinsically forming part of yourself, you will be a stranger to yourself.

This is why Alex Jones has to yell so loud.







Immortality
Immortality exists, and we get to participate in it for a while if we look at the moon. This interaction always carries for the intelligent the understanding that death will come for you... it tolls for thee. We are part of a specifically beautiful cyclical chemical mortal cycle within this universe of immortalities, a carbon-based killing machine come into this world to do what our beautifully complex organic codes have led us to do.

We know we will die, and the immortality in the world is only sharpened. Colors! Greens! Beautiful firls! girls! Making it big! Making it propah!

"There's some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for..."

We know at least that there is something in this world, even when it can all be made to seem like it disappeared.

Now, and this is the real relevant question: do you really want to meet immortal entities?
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02-28-2013, 03:45 AM (This post was last modified: 02-28-2013 03:51 AM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #2
ChainOfBeing Offline
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RE: Immortality
Life is consumption activity, active and continuous, ceasless destruction of that which one is not. To arrest consumption for even a moment would be immediate death. Right now every single cell and organ in your body is consuming something, many something's. Likewise with your psyche and 'ego'.

Form is contingent and very conditional, the more so the more derivative that form is.

Self-conscious life, so called, is the most derivative form.

Immortality, particularly for human-like life, would require equally immortal and endless killing and destruction. What world could support such a being? To what end could such a being exist, that it might justify its mode of existence by some greater reason or end?

What you speak of is belief in immortality, experience of the feeling of the idea of immortality. I look at the moon, I feel "the immortality of things" (of world, life, universe, death, self, whatever). So what? Tell me what purpose is served by this, that could not be (better?) served without this feeling and idea (delusion)? Where is YOUR necessity to experience the feeling/s associated with the idea (delusion) of immortality?

No. There is no immortality, there is finite, temporary existence. To believe otherwise is self-delusion, and error.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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02-28-2013, 12:17 PM Post: #3
pezer Offline
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RE: Immortality
"Life is consumption activity, active and continuous, ceasless destruction of that which one is not. To arrest consumption for even a moment would be immediate death. Right now every single cell and organ in your body is consuming something, many something's. Likewise with your psyche and 'ego'."

This is mortality. If there were no permanence, which is what immortality is, there would be nothing to fuel the activity of mortality. To believe this is self-delusion and error, yes.

What isn't? Check out Bill Willtrack's take on it in the shit thread.

The usefulness of it lies in the very emotions it creates. We have been exploring the relationship between epistemology and ontology in this site, but what about the one between emotion and ontology?

In short, I never believed that Parmenides and Heraclitus contradicted each-other.
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02-28-2013, 03:01 PM Post: #4
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RE: Immortality
Fear and a desire to avoid knowledge or feeling of our mortality and that of those whom we love, that is the source of the inclination to feeling immortal. This feeling or "in-tension" is then the justification for beliefs in immortality, eternity, heaven, karma, universal justice, whatever. We believe because we feel it, we feel it because we do not wish to feel otherwise.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-01-2013, 02:40 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Immortality
Suppose we are talking about pre-existing immortality: you are right. The Tabula Rasa is an objective, not a starting point.

Suppose we are talking about the generated orders within chaotic systems, by simple logic of potential generation: then immortality enters, beyond the silly metaphysician's sense, as a simple description of give-and-taking.
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03-01-2013, 08:23 AM Post: #6
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RE: Immortality
Logic of potential generation? Are you referring to the creative act, whereby we bring something into being by actively transforming what is given, via a teleological process? Ends-driven activity is certainly ontologically important, even (arguably) categorically so, but in what sense can we call the creative act or any "give and take" as being "immortal"? I'm what sense are you using the concept of immortality here?
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-01-2013, 11:23 AM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 04:35 PM by JSS.) Post: #7
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RE: Immortality
Immortality presents the issue of who or what you want to be immortal.

Socialist societies propose that the society be immortal at the expense of the people involved, "you little guys die anyway, so what the hell."

It is unwise to create machines or social mechanisms that value themselves more than you, "Frankenstein's Monster".
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03-01-2013, 01:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 01:36 PM by ChainOfBeing.) Post: #8
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RE: Immortality
That which we want to be immortal has to do with how we feel, how we think, what our values are. We would hold that immortal which most secures for us a possibility of maintaining desirable states of being, rather in pleasure, freedom, satiety, novelty, the company of others, whatever appears most desirable to us at any given moment. The utility of the concept of immortality, to the extent that it may be said to have any real utility other than to deceive and to perpetuate states of deception, even pleasurable ones, such as coddle children not yet ready to accept the harder reality of things, is that it will indeed give us insight into what we must value ourselves.

Societies will always extend their values beyond the individual. This is what "society" means. It may even be a prerequisite of a society to flourish that it believe, on some level at least, rather explicitly or implicitly, that its own society and culture is immortal. This seems foolish to us, who know that no society is immortal, but the feeling of such may indeed be a condition for social perpetuation at all. Culture is what stretches beyond the individual, what conditions individuals, that by which the individual is brought into his or her existence, given an identity, a psychology. We should be focusing on creating the right kinds of cultures, the best kind of societies, which produce the best kind of individuals. If it is the case that some level of "will to immortality" exist in this sense, as societal "glue", as is of course the case with religion, which seemingly every society has possessed, in the sense of dogmatic ideologies and metaphysical mythologies, then this must be accepted and used as best as possible.

Society will always value itself more than the individual, because the mass of all people in society, including those masses of people not yet even born but who exist in the future alone as our own derivations, always have more abstract value than you or any single person. This is the way it must be. To have it any other way would simply represent the impossibility of society as such, would merely be a state reaching for anarchy and a total will to power at the behest of that individual most capable of possessing the cultural and economic material of the moment, and to the express detriment of all those people and those possibilities enabled by everyone else, particularly those future humans who are not yet here to lay claim upon their own existence or to possibilize their own potential against the tyrants of the present who devour them and their reality. This is the state of affairs of present-day humanity, a mere state of living in the wild like savage beasts who leave everything up to chance and become only the greater sorrow of a murdered potential of such a unbelievably tragic magnitude as cannot even properly find expression in our language, a thing that even our very best poets and playwrights and artists can only hint at.

Man does not yet even will himself, much less anything beyond himself. If the false notion of immortality can be said to possess any ideal validity at all in the grand schema of our conscious experience, this has never yet been realized, at least not on any measurable scale.
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03-01-2013, 04:43 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 04:43 PM by JSS.) Post: #9
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RE: Immortality
In the simplest societal case, a man and wife choose to separate, destroying the social group, the family, rather than one killing the other.

In a little more complex society, a corporation (considered a citizen), chooses to disillusionment, destroying the social group, rather than face extortion of its own employees.

The same can hold for every type of societal order... until the order itself, not the individuals, is making the decisions autonomously (especially if computers are involved). After that point, the individuals are expendable.
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03-01-2013, 05:08 PM Post: #10
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RE: Immortality
Individuals are and have always been expendable. Since like the very first society.





RE: Immortality
So have societies.
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03-01-2013, 07:05 PM Post: #12
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RE: Immortality
And?

Once again I've lost your point entirely.
Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
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03-01-2013, 07:12 PM (This post was last modified: 03-01-2013 07:13 PM by JSS.) Post: #13
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RE: Immortality
The point is that a life such as a human, has a choice that other less sentient animals don't have. The homosapian has the choice to work toward his own immortality or that of something else. What he has inadvertently done is to create something else merely to help him out that he then inadvertently chose to make immortal and above himself - society and machines.

Thus, due to both the cleverness and the stupidity of homosapian, he is to die out completely and be replaced by his invention... end game.
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03-02-2013, 12:27 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 12:28 AM by pezer.) Post: #14
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RE: Immortality
What I'm saying is that ends-driven activity is the only ontological activity. This I will now call feeling-ontology, otherwise known as the force, God, karma, The One, The Way, Prima Causa. The stupid animal. You are the stupid animal.

This, precisely this, is mortality.

What that exists within, as a short-time-cycle element, that I call immortality.

The repeating patterns that conform the world we feed off of, and thus are ultimately somehow made up of, so to speak.




[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='1348' dateline='1362151327']
.












[size=large]

We are three dimensional beings existing in a multidimensional world.



No matter what we do we cannot achieve immortality.





We do repeat our lives over & over again, more or less the same way, but again, within the framework of a three dimensional scope.
[/size]




.
[/quote]




RE: Immortality
(03-02-2013 12:27 AM)pezer Wrote:
What I'm saying is that ends-driven activity is the only ontological activity. This I will now call feeling-ontology, otherwise known as the force, God, karma, The One, The Way, Prima Causa. The stupid animal. You are the stupid animal.

This, precisely this, is mortality.

What that exists within, as a short-time-cycle element, that I call immortality.

The repeating patterns that conform the world we feed off of, and thus are ultimately somehow made up of, so to speak.

Look at the behavior of a virus, or a fish, or a tree. These things act based on an organic mandate or "instinct", their growth pattern is predetermined by DNA and chance environmental influences. In the case of animals this goes much further and they have an organism able to be more mobile and extend its own influence-affect outward from itself. The behavior is always the result of inward patterning-instinct set in an environment of conditioning ad restricting or enabling factors. The individual comes into existence as the process of instinctive patterning through a situation that, to that individual, is "random". When the individual begins to mediate this randomness more substantially due to its increasing ability to directly alter its own environment, a feedback loop is tightened and the individual pattern experiences increased potentiation. But this is still not teleological.

Teleological is what happens when a pure possibility, not yet in existence, is envisioned nonetheless as possibility-as-such, and in this form "calls to itself" through the present-moment individual process of foresight. Where anticipation is based on memory and instinct this does nœ happen save only to potentiate already extant possibilities, ie telos is "collapsed", non-dimensional. Rather, when the organism gains the ability to see and be affected by that which truly does not yet exist and is also a function of possibility-as-such, meaning its potentiality is embedded or located in itself and its own "being what it is", then we find telos, this ability to possibilize not only our own individual inherited script upon the tablet of the immediate future but rather also newness of futurity itself, which begins to grow in stature as it grows the new individual through whom it is increasingly realized. Of course these are differences of degree, at first, but eventually collapsed marginal planes push into new tectonic dimensions and begin to take on wholly new character and qualities. When this occurs to where a line is drawn around the epistemic entity, between that which it was/is and that which it now calls to and is/may be, we must say that a difference in kind has taken place, no matter that the steps along the way to this change are composed of flattened plateaus of qualitatively undifferentiated causalities.

The ontological status of a thing would be its ability to affect, to cause or force to happen, namely to hold itself in existence as such and such a thing and not another, against the contrary and competing existences of other things. This is what we have called self-valuing.

So "feeling ontology" then is when an entity responds to the fact of its own existence, feels itself somehow and thus is capable of perishing, of having this feeling-itself come to an end? I would agree this is categorically significant as regards ontology. If we consider being as Dasein, then certainly ontology is merely the ontology of teleologies. But I like to break down less- and non-teleological entities and demonstrate their own relevance to ontology as well. In this I have found Kitaro very helpful, I posted about this in the Philosophy forum when I first joined here. ( Edit, here is the link to that,
http://naturalworldorder.org/forum/showt...php?tid=71 )

Does it make sense to say that a Dasein is immortal between the finite spans of its beginning and ending points of its existence? Perhaps. To not be dead and yet to comprehend death, to feel mortality from the other side of mortality, yes perhaps this is a better (more interesting, less irrational) definition of immortality.

Or perhaps you are saying that the death state is where "immortality" lies? I would caution against attributing such characteristics and meaning to the non-existent. That which is not yet in existence but is a more or less potent possibility, to the extent it may influence the present (it's own past) with itself, I ascribe ontological status, albeit virtually so, as Deleuze noted. But that which either had now become non-existent or has no existence yet and also no realized virtual dimension we could ascribe no qualities to, including and maybe especially "immortality".
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03-02-2013, 02:41 AM Post: #17
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RE: Immortality
I think pezer was saying that the principle involved is immortal.
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03-02-2013, 03:15 AM Post: #18
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RE: Immortality
If our mortally generated patterns work, the repetitiveness of it suggests that a counter-acting, equally predictable force exist to give it's energy fluidity needs viability. That force, like the stupid animal, can in reality be any number of things, any complexity of complexity, etc. But thar it is, as dependable as anything. Often these things are worth ignoring, I agree. Did the Gods not slay the Titans?

Immortality is perhaps, as you say, useful insofar as it works towards refining and re-enforcing the processes of mortality.
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03-02-2013, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-02-2013 05:23 AM by JSS.) Post: #19
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RE: Immortality
To me it is merely a question of Entropy or Anentropy.

Rationality and survival is the focus upon anentropy.
Irrationality and nihilism is the focus upon entropy.

Conservatism and Liberalism are similar except that they merely focus on being the opposite of the other regardless of rationality.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:42 pm

The Soul
The Soul is one of the Church's greatest mechanisms (well, today it is by far greatest, God lags far behind, or even the ManGods) to keep the little man down. An image is created of part of your belongings being a soul, a third eye sort of essence that was created by a being of the following characteristics: Pure love, Good, Benign, AllPowerful, Your True Father and Above Your Father, Perfect/flawless (a word that hides that flaw precedes flawlesness always). These characteristics are attached a category of subservient feelings that will keep the follower continuously trying to mold his soul to the goodgodsoul. But what is his soul? How does he know?

It is described to him as that which gains by believing and looses by feeling pleasure. He has coordinates, his psychology can attach his life to his ideal and have it, as it was designed to do, severely missmatch.

Now the hoe runs back to the pimp, who opens his hand and grins. A disgusting pedophile pimp, no less, because it is the child they are after.

The Soul is the stupid animal we have inherited, and it is all ours. No pedophile God can peer into your dreams, nothing but the long throes of history really affect you. The soul is not something to be kept closeted away and worshiped into some in-human image, or nailed to a cross. It is not something to ride on blindly, either, as Nietzsche discovered from Schopenhauer, because what kind of animals would we be if we accepted Christianity's retardation as a gift?

The soul is returned to us with the death of God. What we do with it will determine our honor as scientists and our finesse as suitors.


[quote='Bill Wiltrack' pid='1369' dateline='1362237863']
.








..........................................





[size=large]
Could soul be different levels of consciousness?[/size]







.
[/quote]





pezer Offline
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RE: The Soul
Of course, my horse. Could be a lot of other things too.


[quote='pezer' pid='1372' dateline='1362243736']
[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QF-eThkBOg[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRjocvQZF0I[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WarewT4Zlw[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdgAVE7zzYs[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPZ3u8c0Qro[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4H71mH3B1yM[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuZeYVLbg8[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vegAUg_l_Ps[/video]

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPSJfDQOkx4[/video]
[/quote]




[quote='pezer' pid='1055' dateline='1359848397']
I wasn't sure Badieu had this in him. Educate your wretched selves, awake I say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErlxDV-Z7aU



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RE: The State, Repetition and the Law of Laws
The state then as a reflection of the seasons, thus as a secondary "world".
Again, this points to the necessity of re-instating Saturn, the sequenser, in state-"religion".



[quote='pezer' pid='1444' dateline='1362614005']
Chavez is dead. If you have the inclination to find out how someone like yours truly; not a stupid gringo, not a vested interest, but some guy 'round about your age who has discipline in his thought sometimes, then go to this site, scroll down about one or two tracks to the one called "The Death of Hugo Chavez And The Future Of Venezuela", and skip to 28:55. It's about a 5-10 minute explanation of what Chavez was for us who are unburdened by the Cold War past.

I was going to maybe write something, but this guy said basically all of my words.
[/quote]




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Success
Success is always behind, always retroactive. It is the bane of so many people today to, in despair, think they are being clever by focusing on the process and seeking success itself as a future. Perhaps it can work in specific circumstances, though I can't imagine one. Can there be success in seeking success as an objective? Wouldn't one then have to first seek success in achieving success in achieving that? An-

There's enough snake oil salesmen aware of this and offering new ways to find "success in your life, your career, yo-"bleeeeergggh. Constantly perfecting the art of perfecting the art perfecting until you have become a machine with no purpose.

But you aren't a machine, and will never quite be, so you do always have purposes. You just learn to ignore them, take them as givens, and hear them always vaguely. The how to achieve the purposes, that's the only thing that matters to you (the ultimate perversion of Machiavelli?). Here, paranoia is even healthy. It might snap you out of it to think that this process leaves your purposes pretty much up for grabs to anyone that can imitate your somewhat simple principled obsessive needs and use a vague voice.

Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
If we're doing this multimedia collaboration thing, and I expect we will, we should share any knowledge we might have regarding the highest possible quality at the lowest possible cost.

And by we I mean you, all I know I got from Robert Rodriguez, who I'm not really a fan of, and Peter Jackson, who was working in the 60's.

My thinking right now is that I have to save enough for like a medium range Rebel camera, I have tripod and a low-end condenser mic for VO. My thinking is very dogme 95, Blair Witch Project, on hand and moving. But that's nothing very illuminating at all.

I wonder if any of y'all have collected any handy tips or tricks that come to mind to shoot cool shit at low cost?
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03-14-2013, 09:03 AM Post: #2
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
When it comes to physics and metaphysics, I'm an engineer. But in the world of filming, I'm strictly a psychologist. So I can't help you much with the physical practicalities involved.
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03-14-2013, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 10:10 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
(03-14-2013 08:44 AM)pezer Wrote:
If we're doing this multimedia collaboration thing, and I expect we will, we should share any knowledge we might have regarding the highest possible quality at the lowest possible cost.

And by we I mean you, all I know I got from Robert Rodriguez, who I'm not really a fan of, and Peter Jackson, who was working in the 60's.

My thinking right now is that I have to save enough for like a medium range Rebel camera, I have tripod and a low-end condenser mic for VO. My thinking is very dogme 95, Blair Witch Project, on hand and moving. But that's nothing very illuminating at all.

I wonder if any of y'all have collected any handy tips or tricks that come to mind to shoot cool shit at low cost?

Purely in terms of price and handling, really effective is the Sanyo Xacti, which you can get for around $100. In terms of quality, to get something with a good lens is crucial. Anything with a Leica Lens (many corporations are using them for their mid-rance consumer items) will give you great texture, contrasts and colors at sometimes very reasonable prices.

For steady shots, a consumer camera can be carried by a 15 dollar tripod. For any kind of action, be it people moving in a street or a chase scene, I recommend using a lot of handheld, as tripod framing is much harder than handheld framing - unless you have a really good tripod, which would quickly reach the price of a very decent camera.

For cinema-quality, the Canon 5D Mark II and other DLSR cameras have brought the cost of a basic setup down to about 5 percent of what it used to be - they deliver 35mm film quality even with very low natural light, in files that are about 1.5 times the size of regular DV. The price of the Mark II with a good lens came down from 3000 to 2000 Euro now that the Mark III is out.

It also depends what kind of computer you're working on. A Mac, with Final Cut (and there's nothing else to use on the Mac besides iMovie which is pointless), will make a problem out of a lot of of video formats. I'm not a computer expert, but I know that a PC with Vegas or even Premiere is much more flexible.
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03-14-2013, 10:02 AM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Well, hopefully this will also function as an on-going journal of what works, also.
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03-14-2013, 10:42 AM (This post was last modified: 03-14-2013 10:43 AM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Does anyone already have what it is going to take to interlace the video graphics into the film?
And what about overlay graphic effects?
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03-14-2013, 11:56 AM Post: #6
pezer Offline
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Both of those things can be easily handled by a well rounded video editor like Cinelerra.

Wait, you don't mean actual film, do you?
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03-14-2013, 11:57 AM Post: #7
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Do you mean literal interlacing? What kind of graphics software are we using?
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03-14-2013, 11:57 AM Post: #8
pezer Offline
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RE: Low Budget Cinematic Artifacts
Here is a conversation with Deleuze about movie making.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DskjRer95s



 

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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:44 pm

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Love
Another one that needs urgent rescue is Love. Here, we have good reason to plot a violent vengeance and overthrow of the cinematic order... What horrible co-conspirators they have been! Even the Great, they have largely been able to avoid crimes by surfing around the subject altogether.

Love is an evil thing, it is the pre-existing enemy, that gave birth to Evil when the Good needed it. It works multi-directionally, in many levels. Like any feeling, it can be caught, stretched, simulated, manipulated, repressed, simplified, made to be so painful that we might look away and relinquish control to shadows. We know this because it has. Like all feelings, too, it belongs to us. It is our instincts, part of that which gave birth even to logic. And yes, we have made the commitment out of will to power to subject our feelings to communal processes beyond our choosing, yet we should not look away from the results, or the history, or whatever chaos may ensue (or has).

We are made to look away, often by guilt of the evil acts we commit. But which of those acts weren't committed out of love? "But love for the self doesn't count!" you might say. I say love of the self is love of the precedents of the self, and their intertwining like they do. Enough that you would meddle with the forces of the Universe Themselves to keep it going.



pezer wrote:

Aside from France and the United States, Venezuela was the only self-proclaimed political unity of economic and political importance to produce neo-enlightenment intellectual warlords that waged war against the European governors and won. Miranda, the second-in-command in Venezuelan independentist mythos, took part as a general in the French Revolution (he's right up there on the Arc) after having escaped Russia for having an affair with the queen-princess-whatever. Simón Bolívar, the George Washington, if you will, was taught by progressive, neo-aristotelian teachers and was an avid freemason idealist.

All South American pride comes from two sources: the Southern, European kind of relaxed, rationalist white pride; and the northern freemasonic revolutionary ideal. Much the reverse of North America, I would say...

The war the Venezuelan Criollo generals waged spread throughout Northern South America (which is why so many of those countries basically have the same flag). However, being descendant from the Spanish machos and the Arab warriors that begot those, they took it a bloody step further. That is perhaps the reason that there are a bunch of yellow-blue-reds when the USA has a single red-white-and-blue. Plus, the heat gets to ya sometimes. In fact, ol' Simon is known for doing things like declaring a "war to the death" where no prisoners would be taken and selling  the **generalísimo** (that's right, the very-very-general) Miranda out to the Spanish for retreating from a battle, inspiring one of Venezuela's most famous paintings in a kind of French Revolution, Death of Marat style:

Miranda en La Carraca (Miranda in The Brig)


Just look at what happened with Chávez: Venezuela does it and, what do you know? Suddenly every country with the tricolor flag has a populist, non-white, post-socialist leader. In realpolitik terms, think of us as Saudi Arabia, but with post-colonial freemasonry as a shadow instead of observant Islam. By the way, just like Saudi Arabia: despite it's ranting, the government is only too happy to sell the USA most of their oil. It's our loony-toon acceptability requirement.

In any case, we are the representatives of revolutionary enlightenment from our part of the world.

In that sense, of course, we are largely guilty for the atrocities the USA committed across the sub-continent. That is the last straw on the camel's back for me, I find myself unable to wish to oppose anything supported by the un-responsible masses when my lineage has such dishonor on it. Let the old white leaders die out, I agree, let new equilibriums arise! I at least know from a silly little piece of family history that one of my fore-fathers was a marquis who gave up his title in favor of a failed, pre-independence independence attempt.

What is your lineage? What are your fathers responsible for? How do you relate to your ancestors' acts? What have you and what have you not the right to say and do in good standing?

Is your lineage rather political? Do you trace your provenance in some other way?




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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
El Chavismo has kicked the bucket, apparently. Who would have though Fidel was going to outlive him?
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03-07-2013, 03:43 AM  Unread post Post: #3
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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
Fuck, who would have thought **I** was going to outlive him. He had the magic autocrat's touch, that one, he was blessed with a truly honest, democratic support of assholery.

Anyway, I heavily doubt this is the end of Chavismo. He represented something, a historical something that has been let out know and will have to find a new way to express itself. Venezuelans are lazy, so you can bet they won't bother changing the name for it.
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03-19-2013, 03:52 AM  Unread post Post: #4
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RE: Why Venezuela is Important
There is always some element of desire for oppression. Every government asserts its will into the vacuum of *your* will. Maybe not you, but almost everyone else.

What's the name for the condition where we love most those who most hurt us, I forget. Or perhaps "the enemy of my enemy" really does trump all else.




What do they hide?
That they hide nothing. So sayeth Baudrillard, and Zizek adds: it's not always the same nothing.

I have to say, in the US (in its international sense) you have become experts at interacting with those nothings.

Romanticism...?

Still, perhaps nothing is really nothing, and perhaps we should get used to replace the word nothing with chaos. There is still blame to be lain for the indiscriminate surrender to chaos, yet perhaps now we can see that the situation is a tad, or infinity, more nutritious than nothing.





Bill Wiltrack wrote:

.





[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Bastein-Lepage_Diogenes.jpg



[size=large]
"Nothing can be produced out of nothing."

~ Diogenes ~
[/size]





.






pezer  Offline
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RE: What do they hide?
They hide that they hide nothing. Bu it's not always the same nothing.

In the Germanic Word you have become experts at interacting with those nothings.

Still, perhaps nothing is really nothing, and perhaps we should get used to replace the word nothing with chaos. There is blame to be lain for the indiscriminate surrender to chaos, yet the situation is a tad, or infinity, more full than nothing philosophers imagined. Like in that painting of that philosopher, focusing on nothing, revealing more than nothing, much more, infinity more.
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03-22-2013, 09:00 AM  Unread post Post: #4
Q  Offline
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RE: What do they hide?
We will never speak so openly to the profane as we do in public.

-Weishapt
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How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-22-2013, 11:47 AM  Unread post Post: #5
pezer  Offline
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RE: What do they hide?
A) Who said you had hidden powers?!? It's not true!!!

B) Who said we have hidden powers?!? It's not true!!!

C) Is Donald Trump the son of an Orangutan?

D) I just want to go home, lie down, and feel [i/]nothing[i] for 20 minutes...

E) -What is that you are holding there?
-Nothing.
-Come on, show me your hand!
-No!
Pries hand open.
-There really was nothing... Why are you such a dick?

F) Why aren't you doing more for your life?

G) I have nothing to do...!

H) Where are the Great Leaders of Yesterday?





Freedom from the Trap
Sun Tzu warned about leaving the enemy with no means of escape. The system has learned that, all systems have learned that a trap overcome is many-fold more transformingly powerful than a trap barely escaped.

So you are stuck facing integration to the system or ruin? No escape at all?

Let your fear of death focus into a beam. In evolution theory, we call this an addaptive pressure. It's a source of power about X% of the time for those who approach it blindly, 100% for those who approach it with seeing eyes.
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03-22-2013, 08:57 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2013 08:58 AM by Q.)  Unread post Post: #2
Q  Offline
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RE: Freedom from the Trap
I like this.

It's true. Sometimes I am surprised by my motivation to do certain things, but then I realize that while I am fairly calm day-to-day, I am frantically trying to escape this thing.
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03-22-2013, 11:57 AM  Unread post Post: #3
pezer  Offline
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RE: Freedom from the Trap
I think it's a measure of how much fun you were able to have and to what degrees as a kid. You learn power through fun, and I would extend fun to anything absorbing.

If you built up certain power, to then have it stiffled is a form of death. The very essence, almost, btw, of the christian dogma. To use it to escape the trap in a way not yet learned... Well, now that's there what we do call evolution.
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03-22-2013, 11:58 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2013 11:58 AM by pezer.)  Unread post Post: #4
pezer  Offline
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RE: Freedom from the Trap
Yet I call even for more. I call for no escape.
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03-22-2013, 11:59 AM  Unread post Post: #5
pezer  Offline
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RE: Freedom from the Trap
Or, rather, I am suggesting there is none.
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03-22-2013, 11:59 AM (This post was last modified: 03-22-2013 12:00 PM by pezer.)  Unread post Post: #6
pezer  Offline
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RE: Freedom from the Trap
I am saying that in certain doom lies the ultimate optimism.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: Natural World Ashes    Thu Aug 01, 2013 8:46 pm

[quote='pezer' pid='1815' dateline='1363988474']
You may not have like Joe Rogan before, but you will after watching this.

Be fore you do, let me tell you that I have seen a flying, rotating disc in my life, far off in the distance, at about the speed of a fast plane but at a higher altitude, as it seemed. Another guy with a decent camera who was casually photographing some other shit caught it, and I'm posting it after the Rogan interview. Weather ballon? The apparent size and roundyness of it might suggest yes, but the constant rate of rotation and travel made that seem highly unlikely. That is all I know about UFOs.

Now you can watch this and avoid all straw-men directed at me, oh casual on-looker.

[video=youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gVLv5eg4Xg&feature=endscreen&NR=1[/video]

This is what I saw. I was somewhat closer to it, closer to the South end of the Montreal Island. I saw it facing South, so it makes sense. (Terrebone is on the North end of Montreal).

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaG4D5671hc[/video]

As I said, I know 0% beyond these images, other than having seen it moving.
[/quote]





There was a UFO reported like right out front of where I used to live here in BC. A ton of people saw it.

There is a big difference between government UFOs and aliens, though.
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03-23-2013, 10:25 AM Post: #3
Q Offline
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RE: Aliens
This is an interesting talk.
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03-25-2013, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 03-25-2013 08:45 AM by JSS.) Post: #4
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RE: Aliens
Can I be the first to call it? Bullshit.

I have already explained how this works. In that film, you have a 2 hour infomercial of an MD selling another film concerning fake physics and society (and not the first time - "extra dimensional space travel via coherent thought"??). And his evidence besides him being the well known unquestionable altruistic intellencia that all MD's are know to be, is a list of creditable politically tied witnesses telling him that they are not allow to know what "those other people" are doing. And from that he surmises that space aliens are visiting Earth, as are you to surmise.

You then get into the whole debate concerning space aliens. And what are you not talking about? Perhaps what "those other people are really doing"?

Behind one way mirrors, Science grows exponentially and soon, "one cannot distinguish Science from magic"... or space aliens.
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03-25-2013, 08:45 AM Post: #5
pezer Offline
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RE: Aliens
Hell, fair enough. That's why I made such a wordy intro. I just know what I know.

The value of the interview is more in Rogan's reaction to this guy.
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03-25-2013, 08:47 AM Post: #6
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RE: Aliens
Yeah, I appreciated his stance... calling it without being too out and out insulting about it.
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03-25-2013, 08:54 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Aliens
That too... I mean, it's cool to watch someone be able to deny a crazy theory without discarding it can be sane under other circumstances.

Still, what I really dug was Rogan's ramblings on the imagination, politics, and the human condition in general.

The Alien thing I had to harp on, because it would be disingenuous of me to offer this video without making clear my own stance on UFO's.
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03-25-2013, 09:29 AM Post: #8
Q Offline
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RE: Aliens
This becomes meaningless so quickly. That's why I don't usually do too much with aliens.

Whether they are created but the government, or whether they came here from another dimension, if the science is so far advanced that they have man-made replicant-type species, then there are aliens, they're just man-made, but if the men that are making them are so far beyond our paradigm of understanding, then those men are effectively aliens anyways.

It's all fine and dandy to repeat what you are, JSS, but besides you pointing it out the first time, it doesn't do us much good. Do you know for sure he has never seen (what is to him) an alien species? These people are not all brainwashed, and they are not all actors. I think everyone is getting played. There probably are aliens things out there, and that is probably used to cover up stargates to Mars, and that is probably covering up something else.

You make it sound like aliens is a cover up for something else, or a couple other things, and then that's it. It's, I imagine, way more complex than that. We've probably already reached the edge of understanding and we're all living in a virtual reality.
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03-25-2013, 09:45 AM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Aliens
"We've probably already reached the edge of understanding and we're all living in a virtual reality. "

Oh... so far.... Oh so very far!

"Am I... dead?"

"Far from it..."

We are still the apes Nietzsche was talking about. There are still miles and miles of empty that we have been ignoring for milennia.
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03-25-2013, 10:18 AM Post: #10
Q Offline
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RE: Aliens
Sure. This time around...



Economic Terrorism
I invite everybody to do this: to find strictly non-illegal ways to do as heavy trading as possible without the use of a single state coin (I'm not sure there can be any other kind, but am open).

Imagine? To violate the law of death and taxes? True terrorism. A hard. Core. Enemy of the state. Yet, guess what? Subtle enough that I can say all this.

YEWW - ESS - AY!

The more international you can make it the better, but that isn't a possibility for all people or trades.
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03-23-2013, 05:35 AM Post: #2
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RE: Economic Terrorism
You hit the nail on thw head, at least as far as that is done asking a question. This is the core practical question emerging from VO. For tonight, read up on Scorpio and the 8th house.
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03-23-2013, 07:08 AM Post: #3
Q Offline
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RE: Economic Terrorism
Yes, sir.
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03-24-2013, 09:58 PM Post: #4
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RE: Economic Terrorism
(03-23-2013 07:08 AM)Q Wrote:
Yes, sir.

I had an interesting lesson that night, on Scorpio and the 8th house... I kind of recommend not drinking too much when experimenting with it. I am still walking with difficulty and the cut on my face will take a few days to heal.
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03-25-2013, 09:53 AM Post: #5
Q Offline
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RE: Economic Terrorism
What happened?
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03-25-2013, 04:27 PM Post: #6
JSS Offline
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RE: Economic Terrorism
(03-21-2013 03:33 AM)pezer Wrote:
I invite everybody to do this: to find strictly non-illegal ways to do as heavy trading as possible without the use of a single state coin (I'm not sure there can be any other kind, but am open).

Imagine? To violate the law of death and taxes? True terrorism. A hard. Core. Enemy of the state. Yet, guess what? Subtle enough that I can say all this.

YEWW - ESS - AY!

The more international you can make it the better, but that isn't a possibility for all people or trades.
That is actually very simple, safe, legal, and easy.
But there is no way in this Hell that you would do it.
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03-26-2013, 04:59 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Economic Terrorism
I've been doing it with drugs. I'm practicing, for you are right, this will be a new practice with many lumbering initial steps.




Science, Magic, Electricity
“Any sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.”

Those are the words of some one who hasn't come to terms with electricity. The real answer is nay; all physical science is distinguishable from magic.
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03-18-2013, 04:20 AM Post: #2
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Oh snap. I don't know if I agree entirely; however, with regards to electricity there is something interesting there. You know, when it comes to things like inertia, I don't see it as too magical, but it's almost like electricity is that magical branch where the "cool" stuff happens.

Check out Thunderbolts of the Gods if you haven't seen it yet. I think you would enjoy that.
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03-19-2013, 12:34 PM (This post was last modified: 03-19-2013 12:37 PM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #3
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
From Homo Erectus to Homo Electricus...
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03-20-2013, 01:03 PM Post: #4
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Watched part of the movie (sorry man, but the soundtrack is only tolerable for 5 min stretches), and I like the idea a lot. Their mistake is to mistake their work's link with physics with that of, say, Einstein. When I mean coming to terms with electricity, I don't mean a theory that must be inferred (and now I'm debating the documentary, I don't assume you agree with them on any one point), but the literal feeling that can be discerned by the difference between sitting in the middle of a little room full of different electronic circuits running and outside in a desert somewhere, no electronics near you. Then there's the difference that will really blow your mind, the one between those and sitting in the middle of a meadow in early summer, but that one doesn't come to bear in this discussion.

Electricity functions according to some rules that we know from tracking it very carefully. We use those rules to manipulate it, but the raw feeling of it is always there, always available to the conscious touch. I'm sure, as all things available to the conscious touch, that it can work wonders in magic and mysticism, but that doesn't make them related to science, to that specific style of careful tracking and manipulating.
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03-21-2013, 04:34 AM (This post was last modified: 03-21-2013 04:38 AM by JSS.) Post: #5
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
To modern Science, the formation of matter is magic. The Big Bang is a story of a totally inexplicable supernatural event, yet called a "Science theory".

As far as the electric potential affecting galactic events, there should be absolutely no question that it is involved. How much is another story.

Gravity is no more than randomized electric potential such as to yield a total macroscopic zero potential, but on a much, much, much smaller scale, there is nothing within the gravitational field that is not simply electric differentials.

And a randomized field means that there will necessarily be regions of higher and lower potential, both locally and regionally. These are detected as (usually microwave) EM signals detected everywhere. Large scale regional detection is a matter of being out there, so isn't as easily witnessed or measured.

Electric potential's stronger effect, due to being less randomized, makes it more powerful, but stronger also means faster in many cases. So the issue becomes one of timing across vast distances of space. Are the particles, planets, or whatever moving fast enough to maintain a potential distinction? In some cases, no. In many cases, yes.

Will such potential distinctions affect the orbital patterns? Unquestionably. It is silly to think otherwise.

As far as that film, when someone mixes a rational concept with grossly embarrassing ignorance concerning things like mythology, it becomes too vulgar for me to watch. "Now that we have the Hubble Telescope and can see shapes of things 10 billion light years away, we can easily understand why ancient Egyptians wore their hair the way they did."

Can you get more desperate?
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03-21-2013, 04:59 AM Post: #6
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
You guys are hilarious.

I usually watch films all the way through. I don't notice things like bad soundtracks, nor do I care about if they include aspects that I don't agree with. I mean, not really. Every movie will have parts I find 'vulgar,' or whatever. I just watch them and move on.

I don't even remember ToTG that much, I just thought it was cool, and involved electricity.
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03-21-2013, 09:44 AM Post: #7
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Lol, well, there you have it. The richness of different approaches. There are just certain kinds of sounds and images that I don't allow myself to tune off to. Some of them, like the soundtrack here, get annoying if you're not tuned in.
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03-21-2013, 09:47 AM (This post was last modified: 03-21-2013 09:47 AM by Fixed Cross.) Post: #8
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
(03-21-2013 04:34 AM)JSS Wrote:
Electric potential's stronger effect, due to being less randomized, makes it more powerful, but stronger also means faster in many cases. So the issue becomes one of timing across vast distances of space.

I think I get this but I'm not sure. Is it like fields of potential opening up and quickly dissolving due to their 'poles' losing their electrically efficient spatial relation to each other?

How large can these electrical fields get, and how is their strength and fleetingness related to their size? And - if this is ridiculous please, be so good as to explain why - are they potentially strong enough to, say, carry a magnetized vessel that is in some way wired to adapt its potency to the change in its location in the field, so that it could 'surf' an electric field while in outer space?
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03-21-2013, 10:22 AM Post: #9
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
I guess the logic from JSS, help me out here if I'm off, is that the vessel itself would have to make part of some incredibly vastly randomizing process in order to maintain the instability required to travel those kinds of distances with that amount of coherent mater.

The energy source is unimaginable.
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03-21-2013, 11:32 AM Post: #10
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
(03-21-2013 09:44 AM)pezer Wrote:
Lol, well, there you have it. The richness of different approaches. There are just certain kinds of sounds and images that I don't allow myself to tune off to. Some of them, like the soundtrack here, get annoying if you're not tuned in.


It kind if goes both ways. I mean to a large extent you are a subject of your environment. I agree with that - funnily enough in an electricity thread - but also you are what you think.

There are two takes on this:

One can sit around doing meditations visualizing themselves in radiant etheric shields and stuff. Which is not to say they are there, but it's mental practice for sustaining a particular 'safe and sound' frequency.

Or one can adopt a stance where you allow things to flow through you. You cannot be perturbed because you are air itself.

They are not mutually exclusive. You can practice either, but the latter allows, IMO, one to move through different cultural thick spots with ease. I mean don't you ever listen to really bad music and think of the psychology that went into it? It's almost like saying a word a bunch of times, or pain itself.

I think this kinda has to do with electricity. Come on guys. Give me this one.




RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
I agree with you. It's just that, well, I've learned to include conscious choice, the artifact of the door, to all such experiences. It works differently than a shield.

I just think there's no contradiction here with the OP. These guys tapped into an idea that I like. My disagreements are aesthetic, and my original post does shed light on the general matter: these guys failed to accept electricity on the opposite side of Clarke. Not by rejecting it, but by accepting it without knowing for sure about it.
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03-21-2013, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 03-21-2013 01:05 PM by pezer.) Post: #12
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
The beauty of mainstream cosmology is its honesty in its dumbfoundedness. Things like WIMP and MACHO are self-consciously dumbfounded theories. We just can't really know yet, or at least I interpret no mention of a new technology of appraising electricity here.

Plus, on the romantic side, I'm the kind of guy that can accept the idea that there is an in-politely big black hole in the middle of every galaxy around which, basically, the whole thing gravitates.

The idea of electricity having to do with cosmic action is certainly appealing, but I more or less see the the global issue in JSS's terms.
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03-21-2013, 01:11 PM Post: #13
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
In other words, electricity is a kind of fleeting, frenetic, extremely focused action, though possibly multi-directional, unidirectional if it can. It doesn't have the blunt, brutal power of just gravity, huge objects (which, really, don't we all suspect matter to be hyper-compressed energy somehow?) just dancing around each-other when they don't straight fall into each-other. It's wider reaching so less punctuated. Like comparing a garbage compacter with a high-powered precision drill.
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03-21-2013, 01:11 PM Post: #14
pezer Offline
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Also, the idea of ancient people witnessing crazy events we never see is very cool and has me going.
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03-21-2013, 01:52 PM Post: #15
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Quote:
Plus, on the romantic side, I'm the kind of guy that can accept the idea that there is an in-politely big black hole in the middle of every galaxy around which, basically, the whole thing gravitates.

Que Sera, Sera.

Quote:
Also, the idea of ancient people witnessing crazy events we never see is very cool and has me going.

Me too. I think about that type of stuff often.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-28-2013, 11:22 AM Post: #16
Fixed Cross Offline
Neophyte
Posts: 466
Joined: Dec 2012
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RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
Any of you practice?
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03-28-2013, 11:46 AM Post: #17
Q Offline
5151
Posts: 469
Joined: Jun 2012
Reputation: 5
RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
I practice science for 2 hours a day.
How bout getting off all these antibiotics?
How bout stopping eating when I'm full up?
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03-28-2013, 12:44 PM Post: #18
pezer Offline
Pothead Saruman
Posts: 800
Joined: Jan 2013
Reputation: 8
RE: Science, Magic, Electricity
No time yet. I know, it's criminal not to make time for science. At least in the city, on lives all around it.

 

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