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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Guns   Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:47 pm

Guns are irrational in the sense of being unduly excessive -- the aim of arresting another person's action may now be accomplished through much simpler and more effective means, such as through any manner of taser, rubber bullet, gas or other temporarily paralyzing agent. Pain need not even be a factor in such methods, although for the more "morally zealous" among us pain can be an ingredient as well.

With guns, however, the partial or total disintegration of the body which arises is unnecessary toward any aim save the most blind and self-blind, which is to say the irrational and the ineffectual. After all, firing a gun at another person creates a whole host of other, new problems than those which one was initially faced with. Furthermore to remove guns and then to consequently make more available all manner of tasers/etc., which have shown easy ability to render a target immobile and not threatening, would add increased onus upon the legal system to weigh all sides of issues of use or misuse of force, being as neither party would be arbitrarily wiped out of existence or rendered incommunicable before such investigations can even begin. Truth would more easily emerge, those who wish to silence truth by silencing another party would be not be given such easy means to achieve this, and in cases of self-defense it would require less "psychological pressure", less "brutality or bluntness of intent" such as is required in the case of discharging a firearm upon another person, therefore making defense more tenable. Man is therefore made less an unthinking animal, rather directly or by indirect default, and society likewise achieves a higher degree of rationality and ethics.

 

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"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus
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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:05 pm

The first step would be to establish martial arts that can pit these more sophisticated technologies against the gun, at least superficially, it is needed for the transition. Guns, or any thing, cannot simply disappear. They must reverberate through the very solutions to them. How do you taze a gunman?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:51 am

I doubt very much that guns would ever disappear. For one thing they are used in proxy political struggles, "wars", in which the aim is not anything rational but merely to kill (to uphold dogma-politics). War is probably the place with the least efficacy for supplanting firearms with alternate methods of subduing people (physically).

It's funny, though, the irrationalities, inherent to social systems, that are so easily revealed through a merely rational perspective on the issue. This must explain why rational perspectives on the issue are virtually non-existent.

 

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"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus
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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:59 am

Pezer wrote:
The first step would be to establish martial arts that can pit these more sophisticated technologies against the gun, at least superficially, it is needed for the transition. Guns, or any thing, cannot simply disappear. They must reverberate through the very solutions to them. How do you taze a gunman?
To taze a gunman, your tactics would have to be really quick and sneaky. You would need the element of surprise - to come up on him from behind him and you had better be sure to taze him well. If you're facing him, you would hit (kick) where he, if he is a man, is most vulnerable, and quickly. Hmmm, a gun against a tazer. I don't know about that. You'd really have to have multiple expertise as a fighter.

The problem is not really with the guns themselves. I can't believe i just said that. But a gun is a powerful tool especially in the wrong hands and in the hands of those with irrational minds. Let's face it, in an ideal world, there might not be any need for them. But any tool is only as good as the person using it. And as long as there are people who will use the gun to break the law and to harm and to destroy, there have to be people and guns to counter that...within reason and with intelligence. Even policemen at times do not know how to make use of a gun, the gun becomes its master, because they are not able to make use of their reason and to think before they pull the trigger - albeit at times one has to pull the trigger. I wonder - if there was more money and training set aside for gun control, and also psychological profiling, there might be less deaths caused in the heat of the moment.


 

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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:32 pm

Right, I wouldn't pretend to tell a fanatic force like the military what to do, but if we higher minded people wish to establish a path for the use of sophisticated battle, battle that meets the evolutionary standards set out in the OP, we have to be able to at least fend off the gun. Some kind of aiming device involving a high powered flashlight to blind and pepper spray or long range electric weapon. Sound with directionality... It's harder to aim and shoot than people usually think.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Wed Aug 28, 2013 3:33 pm

Systema has methods for "psychic" remote disarmament as well as a lot of very elegant short distance methods. Example. Check out the practicing videos on youtube, watch a bunch of different sources and, I'd say, try it out. I find it particularly effective in combination with Wing Chun. What's great about systema is that it's so stupidly effective that it's funny. Look at this little master along with all the videos you'll see by the two leading instructors, Vasiliev and Ryabko.

The Russians claim the origin of the Samurai, and thus of Aikido and related arts. It's true that Systema is makes use of the exact same principles - circles, leverage, pressure points - a combination of physics and neurology. If you get deep into it on the internet you'll find the graphics to illustrate the physics it's built on.

Счастливого пути!

 

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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:51 pm

My position on this is that a country that trusts its citizens to be armed in this manner trusts them period and is built on their best interests, not its own.

The prospect of lethal force being used against you by your fellow citizen promotes respect. Consequences for actions. Consequences which do not first travel through the State filtering system and descend down from on high.
A man is responsible.

I also wouldn't trust the state with a monopoly on lethal force.

With regard to the mainpoint of the OP, I don't find killing particularily reprehensible or distasteful. Nor do I think human life in possession of special value.
Killing is part of life, of reality. Deal with it.
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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:56 pm

Capable wrote:
Guns are irrational in the sense of being unduly excessive -- the aim of arresting another person's action may now be accomplished through much simpler and more effective means, such as through any manner of taser, rubber bullet, gas or other temporarily paralyzing agent. Pain need not even be a factor in such methods, although for the more "morally zealous" among us pain can be an ingredient as well.

Letting ranks get decided without letting death enter the picture by simply and temporarily disarming or paralyzing someone, becomes an artifice, a staging of reality where anyone can support any cause without having to pay for it dearly - consequences lose meaning. That said, while I don't believe Martyrdom determines the efficacy of a truth of causes, when I stand for, defend a cause, a principle without the whole of my being - knowing I have nothing significant to lose, then my acts become disneyfied and I can support cause A with equal conviction as I can support cause B. Principalism becomes a matter of skill.
Anyone determining a path by trying to keep pain out of the equation as an outcome's effect is promoting a life-hating nihilism.
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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Wed Jan 22, 2014 12:56 am

apaosha wrote:
My position on this is that a country that trusts its citizens to be armed in this manner trusts them period and is built on their best interests, not its own.

I agree with this in theory. This is one of those rare cases where I am not certain that theory corresponds to practice.

Quote :
I also wouldn't trust the state with a monopoly on lethal force.

Agree with this too.

Quote :
With regard to the mainpoint of the OP, I don't find killing particularily reprehensible or distasteful. Nor do I think human life in possession of special value.
Killing is part of life, of reality. Deal with it.

Sure, nothing has objective value. What does "human life" mean to you? Not in general, but specifically, the humans you are experiencing, including yourself. Is all that without "special value"?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Guns   Wed Jan 22, 2014 6:49 am

Apaosha:

Yeah... human life is not in possession of any "special value". Not even to humans.  Rolling Eyes 

I wonder how a society founded on such a principle would turn out…

 

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"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus
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