'Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth.'
 
HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 Magnetic fields

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Thrasymachus
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 3181
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Kekistan

PostSubject: Magnetic fields   Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:37 am

How do they work? I've been reading a lot of science lately and only describes what magnets and magnetic fields are, in terms of using various descriptions and definitions involving how atoms rotate so to point in the same direction. But it does not actually explain magnetism at all.

I want to know what these "magnetic lines of force" literally are. And I can't seem to find any explanations, only descriptions.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." -Parodites

"Was it necessary for the sense of truth that Nietzsche described as developed by the Judeo-Christian tradition that then manifested itself in the scientific methodology to turn against the symbolic foundation of that structure and demolish it... Jung's answer was that the conflict between science and religion is a consequence of the immature state of both of those domains of thinking... it's just that we aren't good enough at being religious or at being scientific to see how they might be reconciled." -Jordan Peterson
Back to top Go down
View user profile
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 245
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:13 am

A magnetic field is merely a changing electric field. The "magnetic lines of force" are merely a method for trying to display how much the electric field is changing in that space.

The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves.

Additionally, the electric field is the "electric potential". A potential is not a physical entity, rather merely a measure of a situation. But a changing potential is what physical reality is made of. Thus the magnetic field is the "stuff of physical reality". After finally learning more about physics and getting it straight in his mind, Feynman announced that he wished that he had never heard of the electric field. And yet without the field of potential, there can be no field of change in potential. Without the electric field, there can be no magnetic field.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Thrasymachus
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 3181
Join date : 2011-11-03
Location : Kekistan

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:21 pm

Explain, "The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves", in light of the fact that electricity is the flow of electrons.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." -Parodites

"Was it necessary for the sense of truth that Nietzsche described as developed by the Judeo-Christian tradition that then manifested itself in the scientific methodology to turn against the symbolic foundation of that structure and demolish it... Jung's answer was that the conflict between science and religion is a consequence of the immature state of both of those domains of thinking... it's just that we aren't good enough at being religious or at being scientific to see how they might be reconciled." -Jordan Peterson
Back to top Go down
View user profile
James S Saint
rational metaphysicist
rational metaphysicist


Posts : 245
Join date : 2011-12-26

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:37 am

Capable wrote:
Explain, "The magnetic field is an "electric current" void of the electrons themselves", in light of the fact that electricity is the flow of electrons.
Electricity is a flow of Charge (aka "potential"), originally thought to be stemming merely from electrons. But then it was discovered that electrons are merely the electric field congested at one point. People argue about why it congests, but no one argues that it isn't literally made of electromagnetic energy and nothing else.

When electric current flows through a wire, the electrons are prevalent, but they merely represent how much electric charge, "electric potential energy" is flowing. Once a charge is in motion, it is referred to as "kinetic energy" rather than "potential energy". Either way, the current flows due to the difference in potential between two points. As the circuit attempts to balance that difference, electrons (bits of congested EM) rush between the points.

The issue is merely that any changing or moving electric field is what is called a "magnetic field". When there are no electrons to flow in the attempt to balance a difference in potential, any changing that can be accomplished is done merely by the field itself without little bits of congested, concentrated charge, "electrons".
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Parodites
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 749
Join date : 2011-12-11

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:26 am

A magnetic field operates the same way all fields operate. The concept of field itself is very important, seeing as that is all there is. Realize that non-composite sub-atomic particles are perfectly identical. Two electrons do not just look the same, two photons do not just look the same, they are the same. As identical as two number 3s. In accordance with the fundamental principle of Aristotelian logic, that A is A, electron is electron. There is only "one" electron, the localization of the omnipresent electron-field (electromagnetic tensor) which extends throughout the matrix of space time. When that field's effect is localized in a single point within space time, it has been quantized. It's quanta is the electron. When it is localized in this manner it displays a particle effect in a single location, when it is not localized then it displays a wave effect, hence particle-wave duality. This same thing works with all non-composite particles; photons, bosons, etc. Even when we push or pull on something, we are experiencing electromagnetism due to inter-molecular forces. The magnetic dipole moments are not aligned in most materials, they're random, and thus the magnetic field is zero; the dipoles are aligned in several materials though, like the magnets we put on fridges, (because the magnet on the fridge has unpaired electrons and all electrons cancel one another one when paired) and thus they produce a positively valued magnetic field that we can readily perceive. The centripetal force is either increased or decreased on electrons depending on the direction of their orbit, when exposed to a magnetic field (most fields are of zero value.) They will either be pulled away or drawn further into the nucleus of the corresponding atom. But we don't understand any of the forces of nature at their most fundamental level, because we understand them only as separate forces now.



In asking about why the electromagnetic force operates as it does, you are basically asking why electrons have the spin and charge property they do, because that force is just a mathematical description of how the electrons align and interact with one another. There are many theories. Perhaps by absorbing the virtual photons generated in the electric field, the electrons also absorb some of the angular momentum of the photons and are endowed in this manner with a particular spin and charge.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
Back to top Go down
View user profile Online
Imafungi
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 48
Join date : 2014-01-22

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:54 am

Parodites wrote:


In asking about why the electromagnetic force operates as it does, you are basically asking why electrons have the spin and charge property they do, because that force is just a mathematical description of how the electrons align and interact with one another. There are many theories. Perhaps by absorbing the virtual photons generated in the electric field, the electrons also absorb some of the angular momentum of the photons and are endowed in this manner with a particular spin and charge.

So is the EM field a physical (as in, existent entity of some kind) thing which exists throughout all space, and 'the field lines', although not exactly as we depict them (like a perfect rope that connects to the electron) are existent in some manner? If there is nothing like them, why is there the need to evoke them? There needs to be an actual medium which distributes the force, EM radiation, electric and magnetic fields, as to avoid 'spooky action at a distance'. The tricky problem is in physicality and reality, how many points of EM field is connected to an electron, and how come EM radiation is distributed or caused to exist from the acceleration of an electron in a 2d plane type of way as an outwardly expanding ring of wave, and not as an outwardly expanding 3d sphere of wave. What does this say about the medium of EM field?

My personal thought is that magnetism (2 magnets naturally drawing towards one another without physically touching one another) must be similar to the principles of displacement of medium as gravity. The big clue we have, is that the difference between magnets and non magnets, are the shared direction of spin the electrons are orientated in, in a magnet. I think it must have to do with the way in which the collective electrons distort the surrounding EM field, so that when N pole to N pole, and S pole to S pole configurations, the electrons collective spin is causing the fields to be created in a way similar way to two rowboats facing one another rowing backwards, placed front to front, will repel away from one another, (severely lacking analogy but worth something possibly). N pole to S pole, S pole to N pole, the disturbances of the surrounding field due to collective electron spinning of the field, compel the collective material to follow the past of least resistance, which results in the connecting of ends, in turn creating a larger magnet, adding to the collective of mutual spin. This is very similar to how gravity works, as the moon takes the path of least resistance as the earth has distorted the local medium of space, instead of the moon traveling past earths swirled distortion, it is compelled to ride its wake.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Fixed Cross
Tower
Tower
avatar

Posts : 3862
Join date : 2011-11-09

PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:04 am

The idea of spooky action at a distance is based on the superstition that matter consists of discrete blocks of some hard substance on a background, or rather plateau of Medium, aethir, god-field. First of all this is rather silly in itself as this Medium begs the same question all over again. On what ground is this Medium predicated? What is the ground to the ground? Infinite regress, as with all sciences proposed finalities.

Second, the substance is EM and gravity. This is what particles are. Their manifestation is the force they represent.The coherence of these particles as force-standards and mediators is their being. What else is there to define, describe or identify them? Nothing.

In a similar vein, such people have asked:
'What is the essential waterness behind water? Which non- water makes the water so watery?'
It does not occur that 'things' as we designate them contain within our notion of their being, their being and thus their nature, which includes their ground.

Science is always looking for groundless grounds that ground all the rest which is taken to be purely contingent and of no existential integrity. Its eazy enough to interpret this yearning; men who live without the faintest clue that they exist by their own nature, unaware that they have a nature, that they are what nature has now become. Men who see themselves as separate of the universe, looking in on it from the outside. With all due respect, autists and idiots.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Magnetic fields   

Back to top Go down
 
Magnetic fields
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Before The Light :: Tree :: Science-
Jump to: