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 Belief control, a questioning

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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Belief control, a questioning   Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:46 pm

Incipient: Have you entertained and sustained two opposing, exclusive beliefs simultaneously? By this I mean: truly forced yourself to believe, to KNOW two diametrically opposed and mutually contradicting propositions at the same time, without losing, sacrificing, compromising either?

Subsequent expansion: Can you believe both that you are capable of believing-knowing two mutually exclusive and contradicting things at the same time and that you are entirely unable to do this, at the same time?

Outer: Will you conceive a form in which the limit of knowledge as form can be known?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Belief control, a questioning   Tue Dec 13, 2011 6:50 pm

Quote :
Incipient: Have you entertained and sustained two opposing, exclusive beliefs simultaneously? By this I mean: truly forced yourself to believe, to KNOW two diametrically opposed and mutually contradicting propositions at the same time, without losing, sacrificing, compromising either?
Yes, by a third notion; that this contradiction is sustained to an end.

Quote :
Subsequent expansion: Can you believe both that you are capable of believing-knowing two mutually exclusive and contradicting things at the same time and that you are entirely unable to do this, at the same time?
Yes, only by virtue of questioning/investigating the nature of belief.

Quote :
Outer: Will you conceive a form in which the limit of knowledge as form can be known?
Only indirectly: as the circumference of a perspective - the primary axiom to which no limit can be prescribed strictly in terms of form. Perspective transcends knowledge, so in case of a knowledge-form as the system for categorization serving to build up the dwelling of the empirical ego, it must always be built in the shape of a 'house' - a protective structure - wherein the transcendental perspective-experience dwells as a reflective self-consciousness.

In case of triumphant philosophy, the walls of a house must be torn down, as the entity free to himself tolerates no roof over his head except the ever changing sky.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Belief control, a questioning   Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:02 am

Yes, always indirectly. Thales measuring the height of the Great Pyramid by measuring his and its shadows, or Zizek's parallax view of subjective necessity of self-insertion as the sufficiency for the subject's 'pure difference' of itself.

Tearing down the house to approach the sky - yes an apt metaphor. Also sort of a tragic one, in a way, one must indeed possess a "heart of stone" (and not only it!) to undertake this vital work...

 

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"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

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PostSubject: Re: Belief control, a questioning   Sat Dec 17, 2011 11:55 am

Quote :
"Capable"]Incipient: Have you entertained and sustained two opposing, exclusive beliefs simultaneously? By this I mean: truly forced yourself to believe, to KNOW two diametrically opposed and mutually contradicting propositions at the same time, without losing, sacrificing, compromising either?

Is that even possible? For me, belief is not knowledge until the thing has been proven. We can entertain and question two opposing beliefs; e.g., there is no god, as opposed to - there is a god. We will come closer to a belief in one over the other. That is also dependent on 'where we are' emotionally/spiritually/ and even physically in the moment. Wouldn't you think that by 'forcing' yourself to believe or to know something, you have lost the essence of truth. You have let go of the passion to seek what is real? But perhaps I'm wrong here. I apologize for that. We all have different ways in which to come to knowledge and truth. If that works for someone, then it has validity - well, insofar as it is reasonable and logical, I suppose. Just because I don't see something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Isn't it true that a 'thing' can only truly 'be' as it is in itself? If one is doing the above as you suggest, isn't there conflict there? Wouldn't you necessarily have to examine each perspective separately, focus on each separately? In reality, in truth, can there 'both' be a god and not be a god? Perhaps in my moments of thinking about the concept of a god and the true origin of the universe, I may 'desire' to embrace a belief in a god and at the same, experience/know that I cannot know - but that's as far as it goes, unless faith steps in and faith is not knowledge.

Quote :
Subsequent expansion: Can you believe both that you are capable of believing-knowing two mutually exclusive and contradicting things at the same time and that you are entirely unable to do this, at the same time?
If I understand you correctly, I think that that actually resides in the realm of intuition - it's sort of a middle ground between belief and knowledge. Our beliefs are based more on our desires. Iintuition is more like an inner experience, a feeling/sensing kind of knowledge that needs no desperate attempt to know or believe.

If you're speaking here of a paradox though, it's only because we are looking with tunnel vision and have not dug deeply enough into the 'thing' in question.

Quote :
Outer: Will you conceive a form in which the limit of knowledge as form can be known?
I'm not sure I understand you here, but I think our subconscious does that; through dreams, moments of epiphany, etc. Perhaps that 'form' is constantly re-created by way of continuing to explore, to question, to imagine, to exert all of the energy and passion necessary to learn and discover. Might that form be the human intellect and/or spirit? Haven't we actually done that througout our entire human evolution?


 

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PostSubject: Re: Belief control, a questioning   Thu Dec 22, 2011 11:41 am

After digging a little deeper and peeling back that onion, I've had a change of heart and perspective about this.

I'll post my response after the holidays are over.


 

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Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Belief control, a questioning   Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:37 am

To Capable,

Quote :
Incipient: Have you entertained and sustained two opposing, exclusive beliefs simultaneously? By this I mean: truly forced yourself to believe, to KNOW two diametrically opposed and mutually contradicting propositions at the same time, without losing, sacrificing, compromising either?

Subsequent expansion: Can you believe both that you are capable of believing-knowing two mutually exclusive and contradicting things at the same time and that you are entirely unable to do this, at the same time?

Outer: Will you conceive a form in which the limit of knowledge as form can be known?

As I said much earlier on - "After digging a little deeper and peeling back that onion, I've had a change of heart and perspective about this." I've decided not to even read my initial response since I barely even skimmed the surface of the water there.

This IS something which I have done. I don't know if I would use the word 'force' but I think what you mean here is to deliberately examine if one IS capable of such a thing. We do it quite often I think and it leads to conflict but that is only because we do not understand the nature of many things. Like diamonds, they can and do have multiple aspects to them...as do we. But we tend to focus, in our tunnel vision, on that aspect which WE FEEL serves our mind and spirit more and to deny the one that may be uncomfortable or fearsome but at the same time lets in more light and growth.

Take a tsunami for instance. It has to be - at least for me, it is - one of the most awesome beautiful phenomenon in all of creation - that great wall of water that billows and surges and gathers more and more great energy as it flows and rushes forward. One part of my mind both 'knows' and believes that it is breathtaking and incredible while the other part of my mind believes/knows/recognizes that this same tsunami is such a terribly frightening encounter with nature's forces that is capable of leading to such terrible devastation and pain. So, It can be seen - at the same time - as both beautiful and ugly.

And then there is the god concept. Our rational minds may be fully capable of imagining or somehow 'knowing' and believing that there HAS to be some kind of beautiful Energy, Something, which we tend to unfortunately call god, that began ALL OF THIS and permeates the Universe - when we stare up at the stars at night or into the deep blue sky or when we contemplate physical law with all of its organization and logic, etc. A knowing just comes over us...while at the same time, our mind becomes fractured or a fissure is formed between what we know and what we simply cannot know because while we are in our knowing, we are in our unknowing or disbelief.

It is a dance within the mind and perhaps only self-awareness and the need to further consciousness and knowledge is capable of merging and harmonzing both thoughts into a single Moment where "the thing in itself' can be fully appreciated for what it is - sort of like the diamond which can be seen in all of its faceted beauty...but never totally nor ever completely understood.

So if we are to come to terms with cognitive dissonance - with our split and conflicting knowledge and beliefs and bring them into as much 'light' as we can, we must first learn to 'deal' with what makes us uncomfortable by the practice of taking a long hard look at our beliefs, scrutinizing them as if under a microscope, rising above the tendency to remain psychologically and emotionally lazy and inert, being willing to sacrifice them on the altar of truth and honesty.

In other words, these two conflicting states brought on by our life experiences; pre-conditioning; unexamined thought processes; and a brain which has not yet evolved to the point where it is able to fully understand/to take in as much light as necessary, must be brought to synergy if a harmonious resolution is to be brought to light.

Quote :
Can you believe both that you are capable of believing-knowing two mutually exclusive and contradicting things at the same time and that you are entirely unable to do this, at the same time?


Yes for the first part. I am not quite sure what you mean by 'entirely unable to do this' since if one has had the 'conscious' experience of cognitive dissonance with regard to certain things, one 'fully' knows that the brain and the mind ARE capable of such a fracture.

Perhaps what actually creates this division within the mind is more a division between the intellect/thought and emotions/feelings. Perhaps there is balance called for there. But I may be wrong in this. Also, perhaps when we have come to the realization that, in actuality, there ARE, what we tend to see as contradictions in the world, though in the true nature of things, they are not contradictions - we will better be able to merge the two conflicting beliefs/knowing...into a statement such as "it is" and "it isn't" and be comfortable with that.

It occurred to me that in a sense struggling with moments of cognitive dissonance may be akin to and flow within the same waters as does OCD - or struggling within those moments when one has an attack of obsessive compulsive disorder - though the latter may be seen as being much more difficult than the former but then again, that would depend on the individual. The human being may be quite 'taken over' by the chemistry of its brain, its neurons and its firing synapses. It takes a great deal of conscious effort, struggle and self-awareness to be able to transcend our brains, in a matter of speaking, and to, at the same time, focus our minds on the kind of cognitive thinking that will both allow for feelings on the one hand and yet not let those feelings trap us in the kind of darkness which will not let in the light...if that makes any sense.

As for your last statement - if I understand it and perhaps I do not - I call it intuition but I may be wrong here.
Aside from that, don't all forms reside in the realm of possibility? Look how far we have come insofar as attaining knowledge. Perhaps that form has already been conceived through the evolution of consciousness and is just lying in wait - but I may be wrong.

I hope this is helpful.







 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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