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Pezer
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PostSubject: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:29 pm

Capable once challenged anyone to define freedom. Chest puffed, I answerd with the most subtle perfection I could muster: freedom is the lack of obstacles. The disdain in the answer was meant to show... Well,we'll get to that, but it was meant to impress.

Capable...

Was disappointed!

"Too negative..." He said.

This stuck with me. Why did it bother me so much? Freedom is a silly concept for unfr-

Aha!

Freedom!

So, Capable: freedom is ownership. Freedom is to completely take ownership. There is no altar of excess: excess is what we do with OUR property. What we decide to do is not determined by what is available to us, it is determined by what we own: excess exists only after we have made something ours, after a whatever has been subjected by the process of valuing from self value. Do I go left? Do I go right? This question does not exist for freedom except as a tickle. Something being disposed of is something owned and freedom in action. The deep darkness is not god, it is fundamentally ours. God can be owned too! So... Ownership is freedom.

The question then is: what do you really own? Yes, it determines you, but rather it determines your freedom.

Fuck, I dunno. This seems excessively positive to me. I feel it.

Be honest now. What do you think?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:50 pm

Pezer wrote:
What we decide to do is not determined by what is available to us, it is determined by what we own: excess exists only after we have made something ours, after a whatever has been subjected by the process of valuing from self value.
Quote :
The question then is: what do you really own? Yes, it determines you, but rather it determines your freedom.

we own our actions, we own our breath.
some thoughts, some loves
others own us or we share ourselves in them
If we are wise we own our vices, freedom in is sin, freedom from meaning and telos, perhaps the concept of sin was conceived to enhance the pleasure; at least perhaps nature utilized the unwitting instrument of man to enjoy herself more.
We can also own what others reject; the orphan child given away is free to himself, but not free to his parents, he owns no parents; we can be free if we own someone, free in the womb but also while in possession of Marcellus Wallace, before the samurai avenger walks in and the freedom is reversed.

What do we own from which we can not be dispossessed? Andy Dufresne said it's music.  

As an old friend said, the most important thing with drugs is that you have to possess them. Whether you will use them is of secondary importance, the crucial thing is that it's possible if you want to.

Freedom was declared in the USA only after the land was divided up between aristocracies. Freedom for the common man is however still explicated as a house with a yard and a two car garage and a chicken in the pot.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:53 pm

Wish I remembered that conversation.

Freedom as ownership, this means to me that 'to be free' is simply to have capacity to dispose of something according to one's need or caprice. Freedom under this view then has nothing to do with the reasons why we do what we do, and is simply a manifestation of control.

So freedom is just meaning to say, "I have X scope of possible actions/responses available to me base on this set of stuff I have under my control"..? Or is freedom the "having control" itself? You're right, it does seem hopelessly positivistic.

My idea of freedom has been a certain kind of determination that has become auto-responsive enough to gain self-measure and space within itself -- an interiority, what Kitaro calls time, the temporal dimension of consciousness. We can imagine it as materially but I think its more useful to imagine it as ideal, "factal" (of factuality). Essentially, having an interior in that way creates a kind of distance and madness of self, in which traditional relations and causes dissolve; the other part keeps trying to accumulate and catch up, but it never can, because the more being builds beyond the interior the more that interior expands exponentially, what we call memory or the effect of having experiences.

If we do something, then we "required" to do it. But if that "required" is an expression of a much, much larger field of possibility whose more individual contents, from the perspective of the act, seem almost impossible to distinguish the causal need from the act itself, namely "the self becomes a mystery to itself", that is how I usually think about it. Most people believe they have freedom because they feel like they could have done otherwise; as Nietzsche said, it doesn't really matter if they could have done otherwise or not, it is that feeling itself which matters and creates the "freedom". But the freedom you're touching on is more structural, sort of like a requirement of the system on a layer somewhat deeper down.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:05 pm

I guess I'm talking about that freedom of God the medievals loved to be terryfied of, against which the "perfect needs nothing so does nothing" theorem was concieved. That thing that happens inside when you become absolute shadow to anyone watching.

"I have X scope of possible actions/responses available to me base on this set of stuff I have under my control"..? Or is freedom the "having control" itself?

Not control. I can control something that isn't mine. Ownership.

Need, under this thing I just created, is only the need to own.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:12 pm

But strictly for humans.

No omniscence, just ownership. The choice maybe is the choice of what one owns.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 7:40 pm

Assuming ownership without control, what would that even look like, or amount to in terms of the kind of freedom you mean?

I suppose I mentioned control right away because to me control is the essence of ownership- what would it matter if I "own" the Eiffel Tower if I have no control over it at all? I suppose I could still benefit somehow..

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:03 pm

Maybe you're right, the moment you exert control you own... But the difference is if it can just be there and still be yours. Or be thrown away. You can be hired to work on the Eiffel towert, but you don't own it completely... The man who hired you might, or might not.

If I own a thought, I don't exert freedom by controling it. The freedom is the excess from it. The turning point is that that excess is not from some divine well, it is the action of a person.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Sep 12, 2015 8:05 pm

That is why the greeks gave us such freedom: the well from which philosophy sprang up was of and for humans. That is where philosophy splits from religion.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:08 am

Ok I see your point now - yes, when the action flows from us, instead of from somewhere else, this is freedom. To "own" it means it arises as a consequence of ourselves. This doesn't mean we control it, more like it controls us. Or, more like, since we are going to be 'controlled' anyway by the causes that impel us, we might as well have such causes arise from ourselves as much as possible, so we are self-causal.

Not having control over those causes in ourselves (our genetics, past learned patterns, etc.) doesn't mean we don't still own those causes, "We don't have the freedom to want, only to want to want." -- Thus freedom is the fact that, even if we don't have that kind of control, the cause still is in us, thus expresses us, thus we express ourselves.. like the old Greek gods, expressions of the earlier life and mind.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Sep 13, 2015 9:06 am

It would be a metaphysichal thought if it wasn't a human offspring. Genetics, psychological determinants, these can be owned too. There is some ingredient of control in it. Transcendence of control, let's say.

For Human to automorph its belongings through subject. Objects, but MY objects.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Sep 13, 2015 3:57 pm

"Self-creating". The only type of act that can be understood as the cause to anything at all, and yet in abstract terms impossible to conceive - this is where philosophy becomes life, where it needs life as examples and explications of its principles. We can not understand on an abstract what it means to self-create of we do not understand on a human level what it means to 'take possession'; all understanding is ultimately synthetic, 'flesh', even if formulaic knowledge can be analytical and 'metaphysical'.

Value ontology is in this sense a philosophy of experience; that is to say, it is actually real, and one has to have endured some extremities of experience to grasp its necessity and significance.

In abstracto, it could thus be cause to the must brutal and undesirable realities - 'anything' -  in order to be justified to us it needs to be infused with our specific self-valuing.

I think you both have been suggesting as much recently - and I think this is the general direction the thought on BTL is oriented on since Pezer is back. Pezer the prince or shaman of synthetic philosophy.

The creation of morals. Let's look at this as an exciting thing, something that could cause a lot of life to erupt around us. We have to partially "lie to our idea" to communicate it, as Capable brilliantly put it in a PM; but I take this lying as the attribute of a conscientious artist, who knows when the straight line to truth is suitable and when it is not.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:25 pm

Pezer

Quote :
Maybe you're right, the moment you exert control you own... But the difference is if it can just be there and still be yours. Or be thrown away. You can be hired to work on the Eiffel towert, but you don't own it completely... The man who hired you might, or might not.

If I own a thought, I don't exert freedom by controling it.

How do we "own" a thought?
Was this thought the very first original thought  which  came from our own mind?
Could we even prove this? Are all original thoughts written down or expressed verbally?


Quote :
Maybe you're right, the moment you exert control you own.
Not necessarily. This can also be an illusion.
For instance, a man and a woman. He probably "exerts" control because on some level, he realizes he has no control.
Thinking does not make it so.
Your statement is also putting the cart before the horse.



If we control something do we actually own it or does it own us?
Legally speaking, of course, we might have, probably have, control over what we own. lol
There are times too when what we own might control us - this is where freedom takes a walk away.



Quote :
You can be hired to work on the Eiffel towert, but you don't own it completely.

You don't own it at all...except in your heart perhaps but something so beautiful and which took so long and so much pain and struggle to create I would think one would want to share with the world
I thought that the Eiffel Tower belonged to all of France - to the world actually.


Some say that real freedom is in having nothing left to lose. That's not freedom since there is no choice there.

Perhaps real freedom comes from allowing ourselves to give it all away... no matter what it is.
Now that's real ownership - to me...of Self.

 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel


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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:08 pm

Capable wrote,


Quote :
Assuming ownership without control, what would that even look like, or amount to ....

To me ~~ the below ~~ beautiful, isn't it?





 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Jan 15, 2017 1:53 pm

Authentic freedom is unrestricted, unregulated, and unintervened upon by others. In modern civilization and one could say the entire span of civilization itself we've been forced with inauthentic forms of freedom controlled by the state. Under that form of inauthentic freedom is only that which you can buy or rent where you have to pay taxes on.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:23 pm

Yeah, in discussions such as this I normally get around to admitting that there are limits to freedom, free will, and Anarchy.

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:30 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Yeah, in discussions such as this I normally get around to admitting that there are limits to freedom, free will, and Anarchy.


Of course there are natural limitations just as there is to anything.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:57 pm

Freedom is the ability to thrive within the limitations that one is not able to surpass, and to push back against the limits that one can surpass. Freedom is a capacity for 'action', for lack of a better word. I mean this word "action" mostly in the philosophical sense, but it also applies to physical action as well, to our freedom to hold ourselves in existence and against that which would attempt to push us out of existence.

Freedom is a kind of determinism. Freedom and determinism are not mutually exclusive or contradictory at all. The idea they are opposite is one of the greatest lies of academic 'philosophy'.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:23 am

Well said Capable. As to your association of freedom to determinism, I agree as long as we associate determinism with limits.

And I frequently mention that we should test our capabilities and capacities, know what they are, and periodically re-test them to see if there have been any changes.



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PostSubject: Re: Freedom   Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:32 pm

I agree too, and this is also compatible with Pezers very practical definition, of freedom as ownership. That is a very definitive determinism.

It also reminds me of the song "Cut the Chord" by Shinedown that Capable pointed me to and which I really like, along with that whole album.

"You gotta feel courage
Embrace possession
If it was easier to shatter everything that ever mattered
But it's not, because it's your obsession
Be a fighter, backbone, desire
Complicated and it stings, (but we both know what it means)
And it's time to get real and inspired"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9itwt_opsvQ

 

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