Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

Abstract wrote:

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.

Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Often we discover and learn far more through losing than winning, especially about ourselves.

James S Saint wrote:

Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

yes that works too it would seem

James S Saint wrote:

Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Actually maybe not... because if you do not desire to lose then you have won nothing ... the question is how do you win the unwinable... not how can you avoid losing the unwinable... but with reagards to the concept that is fair enough... one need simply to not care, ultimately...

Thomas Merton, the christian mystic has a nice translation of the Taoist Sage Chuang Tzu talking about the topic at hand.. Chuang tzu had the right idea I believe :

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets-
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed. But the prize
Divides him. He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
And the need to win
Drains him of power.

Quote :

He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -

Yes! Those who excel simply do not care so much if they win or lose as much as they care to so what they do well.

A prize, acclaim, may be the result, but it is strictly a contingency. This is also the reason perhaps why often, real artists are made uncertain by acclaim, are distracted from their true skill, seek after success disgrace so they can 'hate' the world as they did before, when they were unknown and had only their art.

Abstract wrote:

Abstract wrote:

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.

Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me.
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Abstract wrote:

Abstract wrote:

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.

Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me.
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.

Yes I think that is basically the point... to change the self to overcome the situation... nothing is unwinable, even what seems such can be overcome by the state of mind...

Abstract wrote:

Abstract wrote:

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.

I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.

Abstract wrote:

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.

I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.

At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Abstract wrote:

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.

I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.

At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol

Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

Abstract...

Quote :

Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

And in what position does that then leave the 'one'?

i dont follow

Abstract wrote:

i dont follow

Well, that's a good thing Abstract - especially if the leader has no idea where he is going. Forge your own path.

Quote :

Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

And in what position does that then leave the 'one'?

I don't suppose there is actually only one answer to this question but I had one in mind. But, what would you say is another position? A hint, don't let the written word throw you or mislead you.

i dont know... there is desire to lose, desire nothing, simply don't care... i don't know what else there is

This is another question that is pertinent to what we've been discussing and takes to it from a whole different angle.

My answer here is that we win the unwinnable by considering the road to be the goal, without actually saying so; we bravely move toward a goal, but secretly know that this goal is only a means to the end of moving, expressing our strength, being alive.

So we win the goal for us, we place it in our bosom without actually reaching  it, thus without neutralizing it. To win the unwinnable we must set unreachable goals. A bit like the moon might be said to have the goal of plummeting into Earth.