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 Forgiveness

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PostSubject: Forgiveness   Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:30 am

A quote I saw today said, "People need love most when they deserve it least". This is probably true.

Forgiveness being divine, when forgiveness has become a substance and inspirited itself within that nature from which it comes, as system and form, then we have what is called love. Love is a living self-value capable of inwardly cycling excess downward into the void and out of its own being. It occurred to me that forgiveness, not as simply an idea but as a real emotional experience, is probably one of the most significant human creations. The range of powers that are needed to forgive well, is tremendous; the excess that must be dealt with, almost compels philosophy for itself which makes me wonder what it is that ordinary people call forgiveness. Surely that must be something different.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:16 pm

Capable wrote:

Quote :
A quote I saw today said, "People need love most when they deserve it least". This is probably true.

That might be based on christian thinking and feeling and on sentimentality. But I don't think that it is necessarily true. That would depend on the individual and the circumstances.
Is it possible that giving love in these moments might be the worst that can happen to the person?
Maybe the person who we feel deserves love the most because of our  misplaced compassion is the same one who  feels he/she has the right to be loved above all others, their narcissism?
In what way does love serve that one?




Quote :
Forgiveness being divine
,

Why is it divine? Because to err is human and to forgive is divine?
In christian mythology, Christ uttered the words from the cross? "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Let's not forget that it was (supposedly) the flesh and blood human hanging from the cross who also said that.
Forgiveness, real forgiveness, is a human choice.




Quote :
when forgiveness has become a substance and inspirited itself within that nature from which it comes, as system and form, then we have what is called love.


What substance and what nature are you speaking about? I look on forgiveness as an ongoing human process which eventually comes to fruition - - or not --like the process of grief in a way.
But there are people who do not have to go through this process. They just the capacity to let go and to let  be. This is more of a psychological leaning I think than a divine one.  
The ancient gods were not such forgiving entities, were they?

Quote :
Love is a living self-value capable of inwardly cycling excess downward into the void and out of its own being
.

I don't understand this.




Quote :
It occurred to me that forgiveness, not as simply an idea but as a real emotional experience, is probably one of the most significant human creations.

It is an emotional experience and as such it is also a process. Just like grief is...denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. We may experience all of these, I believe, on the road to forgiveness. We do also bargain with ourselves and eventually have to give up a part of ourselves in order to forgive.

How is it a significant human creation? Do you mean human evolution? I see it as the instinct for the human species' survival - whether physically or mentally/emotionally. So, yes, I agree with you here.
That instinct  has evolved into compassion and forgiveness. It's quite logical in a sense because  in our forgiving, we are able to move on and experience living more fully and with joy.




Quote :
The range of powers that are needed to forgive well, is tremendous
;

...like clarity, inner strength, self-honesty, seeing the whole landscape of the situation and the other person and observing it non-judgmentally though that is difficult.
For some, that power is called adhering to god's will and loving god's creations but loving god's creations is not so cut and dry.

Quote :
the excess that must be dealt with, almost compels philosophy for itself which makes me wonder what it is that ordinary people call forgiveness. Surely that must be something different.

That would depend on the individual. Some people feel they have forgiven  but deep inside those waters still rage.
I think that the christian call to forgiveness and also our subjective thinking that it is the "right" thing to do  at times leads to a lot of suppression and repression.

But is always forgiving the most loving thing to do?

 

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Nov 12, 2016 2:30 pm

Ive always been known to be excessively forgiving. I simply cant manage to hold a grudge. But this is only within the realm of forgiveable trespasses; I do not believe childrape can or should be forgiven. I think it should be punished very severely so as to compromise the life of the rapist irreparably. As it makes no sense to forgive a crime committed against someone who is ruined by it. Unless that person comes to forgiveness somehow - but to forgive a humbled rapist is easier than to forgive a proud one.

In the case of people who have violated my trust in the recent years, of which there have been quite a number, forgiveness is very attainable, as all they need to do is repent, and apologize sincerely. Then forgiveness will come naturally.

A Clinton can not be forgiven, an Obama can. The former acted in full knowledge and understanding of what she destroyed, the latter, I believe, did not. I do think of Obama as having a soul. Thats basically it, a person with a soul can be forgiven.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:39 pm

Fixed Cross,


Quote :
Ive always been known to be excessively forgiving. I simply cant manage to hold a grudge. But this is only within the realm of forgiveable trespasses;

Maybe some of those times, there really wasn't a whole lot of meaning in holding on? What I mean is maybe some of those times was just our own petty ego experiencing something which wasn't there? We do that.




Quote :
I do not believe childrape can or should be forgiven.


As a Mom I agree with you. But maybe we need a different word there, FC.
The person who will or will not forgive is the person who is wronged and that can extend to others who loves that person.
But maybe I'm wrong here. We all feel rage and pain over a child being raped.

The law doesn't forgive even though it eventually "let's go" but it also never forgets.




Quote :
I think it should be punished very severely so as to compromise the life of the rapist irreparably. As it makes no sense to forgive a crime committed against someone who is ruined by it. Unless that person comes to forgiveness somehow - but to forgive a humbled rapist is easier than to forgive a proud one.

Unfortunately, it doesn't usually compromise the life of the rapist irreparably. He gets out and rapes again.
It's not for me to forgive a humbled rapist but one who does feel remorse and wants help can be understood better, especially if he was raped as a child.

I think that one of the main things that engenders forgiveness is the realization that the other party does feel remorse, knows/understands what the other felt, and the words "I am sorry" are spoken.
To be expected to be forgiven without the caring and the changed attitude which comes from that is just plain arrogance and ego.


Quote :
In the case of people who have violated my trust in the recent years, of which there have been quite a number, forgiveness is very attainable, as all they need to do is repent, and apologize sincerely. Then forgiveness will come naturally.

But do you ever ask Why they did what they did?
Is there ever a discussion? I mean is it possible that your violated trust was simply your perception but that there was no real basis for it?
Sometimes we feel wounded where there was no intent to wound.

And does that mean that they are automatically back within your trust?


Quote :
A Clinton can not be forgiven, an Obama can. The former acted in full knowledge and understanding of what she destroyed, the latter, I believe, did not. I do think of Obama as having a soul. Thats basically it, a person with a soul can be forgiven.

I don't trust Clinton but I think in terms of forgiveness where that is concerned. But she definitely needs to be held accountable for everything.

A person with a soul? can be forgiven if he/she is sorry.

 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:16 pm

Often Ive forgiven things that were actually deeply degenerate, just because I figured that person would not actually be that degenerate. Ive been a fool for very long about how wretched, stupid, stuned, blunt and ravaging people as a rule behave in my native country. Here in Quebec I feel only calm, pride and love, especially for the children.


It is possible to empathize with a rape victim who wants to relive the experience to get rid of it - but no. If you can forgive that, then you also forgive his rapist, and the one before that, and inevitably also the first rapist of the line. You have to judge fairly, by what you feel inside, the values you hold when you are happy, you also have to hold them when you are challenged by a bad thing. We must be strong in retribution, and not let the rapist think it is really okay because he was also raped.

Deep down he might even welcome the punishment as a justified reaction to what he has also suffered from. I am certain that childraping can not make a human happy. It violates the law of selfvaluing on all grounds but the most desperately dying, the selfvaluing of one about to dissolve can hold such urges, but I would not call the fulfillment happiness, as it does not move the rapist closer to love. It only may bring a second of homeostasis, after which the obsession is exacerbated.

I feel this is what "having a soul" means - to be able to feel about ones actions, and their results. And I dont see that HRC feels much at all except entitlement. She has 'served' 30 years and what has sahe accomplished? Name one good thing... but its easy to see how many millions of lives she ruined, and ended. She's just bad, by any human standard Ive seen. But the collapse in the van may have been caused by something maybe vaguely related to the notion of "human emotion". Also her relief at not having won was pretty palpable. They said it was her best speech.

Naturally philosophy is thinking about why people do things, so yes, I have a good idea of why a rapist rapes - it is a brutal desperation implicit in being in the context of absolute rejection. This instinct is primordial, it is present in all of us, but in most of us so minutely that we never have impulses from it. If a person is raped and raped and excluded and raped some more, what does he know but that? Still, it is hardly justified to let him perpetuate the pattern on a new human being. As the Sedona method says, wanting to understand a problem is planning to have it again.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Forgiveness   Sat Feb 04, 2017 12:26 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
As the Sedona method says, wanting to understand a problem is planning to have it again.

Not sure what the Sedona method is. Never heard of it. Not yet sure its worth the time to investigate cause it makes little sense to me as used here. "Wanting to understand a problem" is NOT necessarily "planning to have it again." Most adults understand that we are all teachers, and we care for our young and those not capable of caring for themselves. We seek to understand problems, to prevent others from going through the same unpleasant experiences as we did. My grandmother would say, "Don't eat too many green apples or you'll have a belly ache." Now did I ever eat too many green apples? Of course! Did her wisdom go to waste? Heck no! I both learned to stop eating too many green apples and I learned to warn others of the resulting belly ache.
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