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PostSubject: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:42 am

What we call will to power is a variance that lives in us as a reverse, delimiting causal structure such that we are unable to realize anything like a stable, total, complete, or quiet vantage point; anything like this kind of quiet stability would immediately cut off the flows of motivation, passion, energy coming up from the psyche, since these are more daemonic. Will to power is a value because it keeps us always in a frenzy, where every realization is temporary and only pushes a new variance and disturbance in us. If we take an alternate route and try to be "normal" or have a value of simpleness or kindness, to "just be", to be satisfied in things, we find right away that such a perspective cuts us off from the daemonic underflow.

That underflow is the condition of our thought. So really, what the will to power accomplishes is holding thought open before itself, in terms of thought's conditions. Peace can be willed only as the corresponding willing of thoughtlessness. This is a deep principle at work in (post)modernity.

Philosophy finds a different kind of peace, though. The stability of philosophy is not based on a cutting-off of the daemonic flow qua conditions of thought, but the opposite: of opening up everything in those conditions to its most natural and extensive expression, a procedure that the will to power is useful for at first but gradually becomes more and more difficult to contain it. Too soon the will to power starts falsifying that which it had formerly aimed to liberate unto its own nature, it begins to merely  subjectivize where formerly it had aimed to objectivize, to "know", so that we are required to abandon that point of view if we are to keep progressing. Since the will to power is merely that variance itself, en mass and taken as idea, it cannot in the final say act as an object for itself nor totalize any more than a limited range of its contents within that wider substance, in part because of the self-inadequacy of the image approaching its own totality but also because the reality of the mind is not in fact rooted in "quanta of power".

So seek to abandon the will to power "above" yourself, in philosophy, and not "below" yourself, in simpleness.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:17 am

Very good; this term does direly need to be clarified.

I think that we need to split up the conception of will to power in order to understand its human application, the way in which it 'wills' to 'power' in the cognitively driven human. Essentially the term reflects a state of tension. It is a will to power willing to more willing to power; it is forever unresolved, N is explicit about this. So the state of willing to power is basically one of recognizing, when sentient, the 'overflowing inadequacy of oneself to oneself'. In this realization, the thinking or reflecting man sinks into this inadequacy and begins to investigate it. Herein the tension changes, becomes more complex, is no longer reducible to a binary state, which the term will to power suggests. Willing to power becomes in the human the will to embody this tension cognitively; in this way the human becomes philosophical (or properly daemonic) and begins, if he can not endure this form of being, to invent metaphysics. Now the greatest will to power in philosophers has endured this cleaved being until the very end, when it resolves itself in a notion (it resolves only in in part, of course, but that it does suffices to bring about a new kind of unity) like the ones we are working with today.

The notion will to power itself is such a notion as well. It emerged out of the relentless contemplation of the cleaved self, and is a reflection of it; but the first, uncomplicated, unreflected reflection.

Further reflecting, that notion becomes wider, able to encompass explicitly more of that which origins it substantiated.

It is clear that the terms 'will' and 'power' do not accurately reflect the process of 'becoming oneself' as you describe - but it is true that Nietzsche meant the composite term to reflect such becoming, where he saw the world as one such becoming and all entities as parts of unresolved tensions, for which the only outcome was to throw themselves at one another, and thereby at themselves.

Of course, there are many humans who still throw themselves at one another rather than have their inner world play itself out under the auspices of their radiant inner eye; they are part of the world-daemon, where the philosopher has become the guardian of a daemonic world.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:29 pm

The world is a collection of power-atoms for a lack of a better term, tiny self contained pockets of power or energy, that each have an internal quanta of force; that is the structure of both the world and man's psyche according to Nietzsche, and these atoms recombine chemically, as the one with a larger quanta of internal force will appropriate the other to itself, absorbing it. Thus the Will to Power is an ontology that describes the self-identification of Power: will to power might as well be called the will to will or the power to power, for will in these terms is simply power acting on power based on the logic of recombination and appropriation of internal quanta of force. Spinoza shared a similar way of thinking, here is something I said on this forum about Spinoza:

---

"In the world of things there exists no particular thing, which can not be overpowered/surpassed by another thing that is more powerful/stronger. "



In this axiom Spinoza is indicating that the world is a Heraclitean contest of wills. Because every particular can be overpowered by another particular the universal can only be conceived of as the possible outcome of all possible contestations. Hence the idea of God as a substance with an infinite amount of attributes.



"By God, I mean a being absolutely infinite — that is, a substance consisting in infinite attributes, of which each expresses eternal and infinite essentiality.
Explanation — I say absolutely infinite, not infinite after its kind: for, of a thing infinite only after its kind, infinite attributes may be denied; but that which is absolutely infinite, contains in its essence whatever expresses reality, and involves no negation."



To conceive of morality in a universal rather than particular sense would then necessitate a conception of the good as a theoretical configuration of these attributes, that is, as a particular organization of wills in which the structure of competing forces proves conducive to some force that is operating at the behest of a human agency. That structure is "reason" for Spinoza. Hence he says:

"Individual things are nothing but modifications of the attributes of God, or modes by which the attributes of God are expressed in a fixed and definite manner."


"A body is called finite because we always conceive another greater body. So, also, a thought is limited by another thought, but a body is not limited by thought, nor a thought by body."


When this structure is corrupted and the force which operates for the sake of the human being is oppressed by forces that are "bad," that are inconducive to him, then we have the development of his "unhappy passions," like greed, anger, etc. The Heraclitean image of the world as eternally generating and disintegrating fire is necessitated by this axiom, and the proposition of a purely immanent God of infinite attributes is necessary to uphold universal as opposed to merely particular morality.

---


Something else I said on WTP:

To realize the will to power, which is the world, nullifies your existence as a human subject. You no longer exist as anything more than an incarnation of the world soul, an instance of will to power. The concept itself of will-to-power is a single line long ontology intended to describe all of existence. "Water is wet" is an ontology, but it only describes one small facet of the world. "Will to power," as an ontology of similar length but much wider scope, essentially means there is a potential that is continuously recycled without ever becoming actual. This potential force is what reality is, and there is no way to "actualize" or "unpack" this energy, as if the world itself were a continually climbing orgasm that cannot be consummated in any release of the built up force. "Will to power" as a philosophical concept literally means an unrealizable force, a potential that is infinite not in extremity, dimension, or intensity, but by virtue of the fact that it cannot be made actual, it cannot be actualized. Thus this ontology implies a world of pure appearance, with no underlying noumenon. There is nowhere for the will to go, so it wills unto power, which is to say, it continues to be precisely that, will, and "eternally proceeds within its own being," to use Spinoza's phrase.


But there are ways to maintain your sense of self, even realizing the concept of the world being the will to power. If you were to realize that you were the dream of some God, you would awaken, that is to say, cease to exist... Unless you had a peculiar art for keeping yourself asleep. Unless you began to dream yourself, by embracing yourself as a contributory poet to the overall divine dream. How would we do this, embrace ourselves as contributory wills to "power," to the monster of energy that is called the world? That is the question that I see value-ontology dealing with. This new contributory self would no longer need to bear or fight, it would no longer be camel or lion, but child. This valuing of the self, of the contributory self, would give birth to both truth and appearance. The truth, that one is a mere instance in the world soul, and the appearance... that one truly exists, that one is a self. As you say "the far more useful idea that value (more precisely the act of valuing) gives rise to both appearance and truth. "
-----



Key to this logic of quanta is that in Nietzsche there is no tension or asymmetry within Being, a tension from which there appears to us the idea of Truth as the category of pure negation and the monadology of value-ontology with which the definition of identities are sustained in the irresolvable agon of conceptual oppositions and negations, for formerly philosophy used Hegelian dialectic to resolve questions of identity and this obviously requires resolution of conceptual tensions and absolute synthesis- a category of truth and tension within being thus beyond the scope of Nietzsche's thought. In the Eternal Return, this recombination of internal quanta of force is absolutely resolved and sated, filled in on all sides, without tension or asymmetry, entirely self-contained and incorporated within a vast super-position of the entire spatio-temporal manifold and every particle of material that ever existed within it. In Nietzsche that means that the structure of human reason to which Spinoza appealed to justify his morality is untenable, for it represents a partitioning, enclosing within, and fracturing of the perfect superposition of wills grasped by the eternal return- to speak with the above paragraphs, it represents a conscious actualization of what must be kept in unconscious potential.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 8:03 pm

I disagree. I think there is a big bang moment in Nietzsche, so to speak, where will to power collapses. The quanta represent this collapsing, the eternal return is the theater of the collapsing of will to power. He doesn't escape opposition, with strength and weakness operating as more or less capable of collapsing. Will to power comes after valuing, not before, and Nietzsche does precede will to power and nothing besides with "all I see is chaos" (supremely paraphrased).

This is why it is necessarily circular, a "fuck it" to the universal "why" that preoccupied philosophy before him. But an effective one, a victory over "because it is." I have used before "because it evolved this way" as a recognition of the movement of will to power despite there being no universal start and stop lines. Infinity is contained in chaos, this is what Nietzsche did to Spinoza.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:49 pm

This is really very good stuff, both of you. Doesn't often happen that I really have to step back and take a while. First of all that is a powerful condensation of Spinoza, and that alone takes me a while to process. It is true that will to will and power to power (in Spanish at least) are are synonymous to will to power. But Pezer is right that where Nietzsche is not condensing his thought into one formula valuing comes before power, and there is a center to thought - the Child, indeed, but also his decision to write Ecce Homo, and the personification of philosophy in general in Zarathustra, and simply the fact that he is a psychologist before all else. As Sauwelios notes, N himself referred to the WtP as a pallid and weak metaphor, or something he was going to write about later when he would truly begin philosophizing.

The problem however with both Spinoza and the WtP that I had was that the relating of quanta is taken for granted. They exist in terms of their relation. But what is this relating itself? It must be important. Moreover, I could not see that 'power' suffices as a term of relationship. Th power must be about something, there must be a 'turf'. If the will to power is the condition it can not also be the quality. Nietzsche figured it might as well be for rhetorical purposes, for the moment, before he had dealt with the problem of valuing, and all the ways in which one can will to power over another. This last bit is what value ontology resolves, and why I had to invent it: will to power only makes sense within a true context. That context is supposedly "this world" - but it doesn't suffice this way. The will to power needs "everything besides" to even exist at all - WtP is itself the 'final instance', the way the world falls into place, but the origin is constantly emerging and we don't know why except that it does and that this is the world.

It seems that the world creates itself. It seems that there is no beginning or end, but only depth, which is in some way the same as extreme locality, and in some ways universal. But it is universal only in its different-ness, its separateness, and this is the will to power.

In the strictest sense, the WtP describes the closed gate of the world, and estimates the nature of the world by its walls. All the ore intensely does he feel the absence of quality, of taste, and his greater work is a tribute to these things. The valuing of Nietzsche that strikes me as typical to what he was, is the way he expresses his distaste for pettiness through Zarathustra, this is where I see him really laugh. But this is something that may only be fully expressed in German, which is a very honest language when it comes to ugly things. He only wanted to overcome the times he lived in, he wanted them dead so he could value himself - as posthumous friends in his imagination. He lived to be with us in spirit at least, I am sure. Only overcoming was, then, the highest of all values. Transvaluation was the main value. For that purpose, the terms will and power are excellently suited.

But we are in world that overcame itself, and overcoming isn't anymore the best term for what we want, what would entail mastery of the Earth or Hijacking the Universe - we must rather build on what stands. Nietzsche probably never saw the full thing standing, he could really only build and this he had to get out of himself, be that pure instance of will to power that defines the world in its harshest and self-less way.

 

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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:06 pm

The infinite attributes Spinoza had requirement of, are 'filtered' by VO: instead of infinite attributes or just one (WtP), being is not universal, and it can thus have different numbers of attributes; the potential is still infinite, but god no longer exists. There is no perfect coherence, at least this is not the predicate of being. Coherence is neither a matter of neat quanta of power nor of infinite keys, but of circumstance an 'love', what we know as love at least is a reflection of the ontic space where coherence takes place. I am as a philosopher an opponent to semantic traditions. I use the terms valuing, love, and such as ontological elements, because they are factually what determines our being. That is the new language that was spoken of, as far as Im concerned; the sharpest edge of vo is that it remakes the concept of grammar, it finally lays the subject object function to rest, by merging subject and object through finding and centralizing an fleshing out the only proper verb.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:18 pm

Technically all being is only historically certain to be self-valuing; the excess of the present moment, being is infinitely more, namely, valuing, the 'infinite love' of 'being in the moment'; is quite real. It just doesn't survive. What does not directly perish of its own nature we call self-valuing.

Will to power "as such" would perish of itself. The concept thus indeed represents a background of chaos. The Buddhists have a concept called "suchness". It is precisely the opposite, or complement of will to power. The suchness of the will to power is thus always a self-valuing.

 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:28 pm

So there is a depth. The deepest we might call spatio-temporal, what is subject to the senses.

Philosophy has rejected this.

Will to Power explains what it is that redeemed that tradition of spacelessness: the naming of spacelessness in thought.

Whether thought has taste is something nietzsche got started on in the dissecting of thought. Magik joins highness here. (As a side note, I remember having this thought once: Nietzsche was alone. Today, magicians await.). Magik understands taste of thought, or no, rather it understands that it exists. Philosophy must go further: it must understand taste in thought. It must surrender pre-nietzschean spacelessness to will to power and apply itself to the spacial. If I conceded that magic waits for us there, I also say more firmly that science is nowhere near there. Science, or academia, is a weird suicide of senses through old philosophical spacelessness.

Philosophy of space brought to thought itself. Health. And I take the liberty of agreeing with Capable: gods and stars are too easy a place to start. Yet we can use them to the venture of beginning this philosophy, machiavellicaly, as will to power provides us the unity of being we need for this kind of "blind" faith. And value? Value will be the end product philosophy. Perhaps, Fixed Cross, you were also much ahead of your time!

Salut!

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:36 pm

You are beginning to see what VO means, and I am beginning to see why you thought I lacked animal experience.

Of course I am ahead of my time! What are we talking about otherwise? It will take man centuries to turn himself inside out, shed all universals, and become the gay reaper.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:06 am

But Pezer is right that where Nietzsche is not condensing his thought into one formula valuing comes before power, and there is a center to thought - the Child, indeed, but also his decision to write Ecce Homo, and the personification of philosophy in general in Zarathustra, and simply the fact that he is a psychologist before all else.
---


Yes, but this comes from our understanding Nietzsche better than he understood himself, as we can read his philosophy from the outside. All textual evidence would suggest to me that he perceived himself as thinking that power was the original thesis, and everything is a relation of this power with itself, and that thought's center is also something added by the human mind to the world-ontos, which in itself is just the will to power. When one values according Nietzsche, one is simply naming one's highest, most commanding drive- this drive, in being named, becomes the center of one's thought and appropriates all other drives to its purposes: this appropriation is in Nietzsche what a morality is.


"what we know as love at least is a reflection of the ontic space where coherence takes place. "


Yes I always speak of coherence as the property of love, (eros) the result of the episteme or thought-arresting-image Eros architects, which precedes the solidification of the real ego as the self-image required by the disintegrating stream of animal, reflexive drive formation and the libidinal threshold:




The episteme, defined as the pre-imaging of Being within the unworked stone or the blank canvass, upon
which Being in its ontic horizon is disintegrated and afterward re-cohered in erotic fixation as the preimagemade-
reality, the form of the revealed statue, I in other words refer to as the necessary thought-arresting
image, for it limits the unrestricted medium of the stone or paper and defines a boundary within which the
erotic form might take shape and reveal itself, within which the flight of thought might locate a new center
and point of departure in order to solidify in a new direction, p. 78, "There are a thousand limitations..."


There are a
thousand limitations, suppressions of cellular division, and contractions of the vital
impulse toward growth which must be passed through by the developing embryo before
the true moment of revelation and release is brought about in birth, in which this impulse
toward growth is given free domain to cultivate and extend itself in the world- selflimitations
without which it would not be able to attain its proper form, or any form at all,
without which it would not exist; so too, with our philosophy. The daemonic, that is a
self-limiting and violence of thought toward itself, a necessary series of limitations,
barriers, and suspensions that must be passed through, so that the mens heroica, in whom
the positive ground of thought has been liberated from passive reflection to active
existence and creative struggle, might be achieved. Indeed, just the other day I read
through my own works, trying to find my life somewhere behind the pages- I realized, of
course, that my life was the pages, was my philosophy; that my philosophy was,
consequently, more than the pages as well.


The artist, when
overcome with the inspired afflatus, must first inclose the obscure, unrealized object of
his artistic longing within a limit- a limit whereby all that is presently unknown may be
fore-imaged by an episteme, by what it is possible to know given this limit, rather such a
limit be found in the canvas or in the block of stone, and in a contrary movement must
release the latent energies of the pregnant tension belonging to this enclosure, he must
decompose the continuum of colors upon the blank canvass or chip away at the stone
until the statue finally appears, within which his horizon of meaning is erotically re-
cohered in a temporary form which, however finite or fleeting, nonetheless buries within
us the promise of eternity and happiness, the intimation of Being itself in its boundless
and imperdible power. Though this obscure object of the artistic longing must, for us, be
nothing other than our own selves, the involution of the epistemic-ontic signifies the first
movement given here, namely the rich intuition of Being within the immediate
phenomenon of conscious experience and the corresponding generation of a series of
possible interpretations of this Being in accordance with the presiding episteme, in
accordance with that shared system by which the inter-relating of the various datums of
lived experiences within a constructed ontology is achieved, that is, a range of possible
images that could be formed out of the stone; the higher-order involution of the
immanent-transcendent signifies the later movement, the movement whereby, in erotic recoherence,
the disparate intensities and potentials of the ontic are consolidated and
realized in an expansive continua out of which a single, distinct form is at last produced,
the stone having been turned into an image Aphrodite, ontology transcended by theology
and by the hypostasis of experience as a living God. The problem is that, before this
process, the self grasps itself obscurely and as mere pathos, and that after the process is
gone through, the self loses itself within a hypostasis of its own experience, within the
erotic form itself- a form whose boundaries and limit, though it must of course
continuously dissipate and throw the self back into the oscillations of daemonic
polarization and the exhaustless production of new erotic fixations and artistic forms, the
self takes to be its own boundary and limit- in that way, as Heidegger was with his dasein,
mistakenly blinded to the excess within which it is passively rooted and has the real
center of its life. The self, in other words, identifies the particular being of the erotic form
with Being itself; the contrary identification of the light of the absolute with the absolute,
the contrary identification, in hyperousian ekstasis, of the excess upon which the self is
centered, with Being, is the goal of my philosophy.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:22 am

The goal of philosophy.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:32 am

Let's play Nietzsche's game. Will to power is so proud that it doesn't question that which makes it collapse, it is part of the same thing. The value is the expression of will to power itself, not a relationship between it and some external thing. Thus, its collapsing is not a change, it lives within chaos as itself. Weakness is will to power unsure of itself. No less will to power. This is maybe why he used Zarathustra: there is an essencial duality of good and bad at work. Simly because of the excess of the movement of will to power itself.

This forces the philosopher into the arresting movement of the erotic self-image, and separates him from the transcendental horizon. Philosophy becomes will to power resolving the duality within itself, the same pride getting back up from the blows of weakness to appropriate the will to power in it.

The episteme is redeemed as a gift of weakness for the climbing of will to power itself. When Nietzsche talked about strength and weakness, he quickly followed with an assertion that he was not moraly inclined.

Power is movement itself, will to power and nothing besides the negation of stasis.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Wed Sep 30, 2015 9:27 pm

It dawned on me that Nietzsche may have, after his first works concluding in the Birth of Tragedy, in many ways his densest work, deliberately taken it upon him to simplify philosophical method, by basically positing something against it and taking philosophy to be only that which aggressively rejects that something. He takes the nature of philosophy to be its power to destroy what contradicts it but without positing something that is not destroyed, and thereby hones the destroyer aspect of philosophy to perfection, so as to work as mask to reveal the receded face of creation. But it could only be honed so well under terribly unjust circumstances - this is perhaps even what secretly nauseates Nietzsche, not that the last man must recur, but that part of him wants him to recur, and his biting off the head of the snake and his mad laughter is him overcoming his fixation on this conflict between his all too human condition of affection and his ideal ego. His laughter thus indeed the affirmation of the recurrence, but neither of superman nor last man but simply the man that he became when he affirmed himself. Much of his truest wisdom is developed in the storytelling art of today, if not to say that film is plainly the Nietzschean artform. He did say that he only used ink because there were no more efficient means for what he had to convey.

Given the subtlety of his self-mockery and a few open statements of appreciation here and there, I do not believe that Nietzsche did not understand the merit of the internalization of man as was done by Christianity, but to confront this merit was, obviously, not his work - that was what had been done for close to two millennia, after all and it had resulted in space for understanding, but not in understanding itself. For that, man first had to recover from all the sensitivity-gone-awry. He realizes that the idea of fixed truth has been the concept whereby weakness has been cultivated, so despite the fact that he clearly believes in the absoluteness of the truth that the world is will to power, it is truth that he decides to denounce.  If we read BGE in this way, much becomes clear - he presents truth here as a woman, and there its worth as questionable, in a rhetoric effort, as a challenge to reason, making a mockery of it by overwhelming it with the signifying power of taste and inclination, physiological self-valuing. "What doesn't kill it makes it stronger", he must have thought, as he unleashed the wolves on the encampment.

Nietzsche's idea of the absolute is the eternal recurrence. It is his most comprehensive exertion that he designates as a reference to the unchangeable. His more subtle and careful writings are about immanence. His archetype of the Child forms the bridge to other philosophies of the absolute, the camel is epistemic an the lion transcendent epistemic. But they do not all truly relate to the immanence that eventually incorporates transcendence; the former two are the shells of the final one. A real child is a camel, a growing man a lion and an old lion becomes a child when he realizes he's not a only a fighter but a person with memory, experience and wisdom, which allows him to laugh at all times. I also compared the stages camel lion and child to the the higher hindu castes. The formation might have followed an initiative of he 'strongest' ('fittest' - preferred, in part: wealthiest) warriors had the lesser ones agree to a pact which would place the strongest at leisure in power protected by the lesser warriors who, as their part of the bargain, were elevated absolutely over the remainder of the population, of which the healthy were cast into the function of farming and merchandising, and the unhealthy were compelled - and this is what rather puzzles me - to become extremely unhealthy, to wash in their own filth, stuff that would make entirely different creatures out of them. But perhaps this was based on an understanding of catharsis, it could also have been a way o banishing the excess of society and form of it a scarecrow, a quite absolute negative example. What happened then was of course a slow daemonism between the classes, of which it is hard to say anything for me, except that it has produced a very proud form of philosophy, purely oriented on establishing an ontic absolute. This, in accordance with the strange mixture of elevation and degradation, leads to widely diverging methods. In a mindstate carried by the charged polarities in the physiology, some of them press down with burning breath to eliminate karma and end their stay on the wheel of suffering. This seems to me an example of the combination of the brahman and the untouchable - the brahmanic means are employed to serve the ends of the chandala, the one who wishes to dissolve into nothingness. This absolute is simply death, for which they are peacefully preparing. But the brahmanic absolute is - well, eternally different*. The two don't match, and even the good new agers can't help yoga in the west - what is needed is a western yoga, a union of the intellect with itself, a coherence, which as you say can only occur through a collapse of the aspect of negation into itself, forming a consciousness, somewhat like the slurf of a tornado, an extreme low pressure point of focus, within which the perfect silence is created. Man as a storm, Capable brought up Jupiter in this sense.

Continuing on this tract, affirmation is planetary (satellite-like), negation is Solar. The sun is a self-valuing only in that it has a consistent consequence, but it does not stand in relationship with its produced terms, as Zarathustra tells it to its blind face. A planet like Jupiter on the other hand is a chemical machine that contains phenomena, entities of change, that outlast every living process on this earth, and might very well contain all sorts of technically living self-valuing forms, forms which live by the our definitions as reproductive entities, but do not walk the surface but dwell within the surface and the depths of complex chemical chains (and are thus unlikely to attain such a transition as the cell underwent to the animal, bur rather remain immanent to the planet in the sense that we are transcendent to ours). I'm not saying that this is is so but it is perfectly imaginable. In the sense of self-relating, a planet is ontic where the sun is ontic-transcendent, in this sense the ontic is the transcendent of the self-valuing negation of self-valuing, the positive, fixed "case" as the excess caused by asymmetrical terms under heavy pressure, the pure possibility that radiates outward and causes planets to have chemical processes going on in them. Now they found flowing water on Mars... maybe the core of Mars is getting warmer. There are all sorts of slow chemical processes awaiting in those cores, billions of years worth of potential catharsis.




*I wrote to Parodites in one of those strange surges of inspiration to meld together disparate understandings in my head that I get when trying to grasp some of his terms; the Absolute in the Brahmans eye is - the white void, potential for potential as it identifies directly as consciousness, consciousness having eliminated its cause so as to stand directly on the ground of its possible forms, thus completely free in creation. The moment when self-valuing is completely extended across the normally faux beingness of the world; the lie that justifies all the reasons, the final eternity, beyond which we can not see an only guess, and believe strange old children.

This is what I would posit against the Eternal recurrence of the same - the horizon of being-conscious as, as it were, the ring of eternity.

The zen painter said that not Nietzsche but Wagner was right, because he was the one who had created a real magical ring.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:41 pm

I see now. The derivative-empirical quasi sciences of the Absolute are the observations of recurring emanations of ontic excess from the circular horizon of the galactic disk. Planets act not as emanators, but as lenses for stellar sources. Sirius is said the be the sun of our sun, infinitely larger and projecting its force into the sun, which reflects it through the planets onto the planetary plane, creating a field of immanence around the negative-transcendent sun, wherein 'values' take place by mixture of heavily filtered Siriusic qualities. Such theories are not uncommon, it is a matter of preference though, the Chinese draw directly from Big Dipper and use a 60 year cycle of the moon to trace the epistemic horizon of their psychology through the pancognate 12 fold division. The Pleiades are everywhere throughout history known as the sign of deep mercy and sorrow. Sirius is the head of the Egyptian pantheon, the star of Isis, on whose alignment with the Sun the Champs Elysées was projected outward to majestically accentuate the conjunction underneath the Arc de Triomphe, in a long standing tradition of attributions carried throughout the major capitals of the west, the Alexandrian world. It is strange, all Caesar did was bring the Greeks the the west and the north, long after Alexander had brought it to the Persians, Arabs and Indians. And long before Caesar arrived Stonehenge was pointing to the same conjunction of Sirius with the Sun, where Sirius is shining "directly" at us - it is said that the energy of Sirius can only come to the plants through the Sun. Because hey are of the same substance, the emerge per definition reaches the Sun before it can reach the planets, which are under the ontic umbrella of the sun.
In our time the conjunction falls on July 4.

[edit - I thought that Sirius is enormous. But it's not really that massive. Theres something about it though apparently.]


 

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- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Wed Sep 30, 2015 10:53 pm

That's great. I've thought about the weirdness of animal life, how it became separate from its world. Plants are grounded, but slowly changed into these beings that move away and change their relationship to their own ground-origin from self to non-self. I did read some science fiction one time that had floating gas bags on Jupiter, which were alive but I can't recall if sentient. Deep down enough the storms must subside into a vast and differentiated ocean. The idea of negation here as defying what one is and changing the relationship one had to ones ground from a relationship of self to one of non-self.. this is radical depth, "for its own sake", absolute destruction and deterritorialization (Deleuze's term).

Depth is only the helm of truth because the nature of being is self-irreconcilability. Will to power fits in there, but notice the overall context; power only exists because it is power to...- to do whatever, in this case the most primary power to avoid threshold collapse into a negation-horizon of one's own being. Don't negate oneself, rather even negate the entire world, as early life did when it first crawled around on legs. Or, like man today, don't negate oneself, negate even the whole universe and truth itself, everything so long as it means we can... start crawling.

The Hindu observation reminds me of something I thought about recently, that society is naturally segmented and it will never be otherwise -- being first lied to itself in order to start existing, most humans continue the lie and have no problem with it at all, while some fewer humans do have a harder time with it and begin slowly to ascend the ladder of consciousness. Human progress always occurs from the exception. The common and lowly exists to uphold the more elevated, just as in society today we have most people wage-slaving it up for a living in order to provide a material basis for a tiny rich class to enjoy life free of that slavery. Anyone who can live free of the need to "work" and simply may pursue the higher arts and leisure is already justifying everyone else who is slaving to make it happen.. We just don't like that fact because we're on the bottom, not the top.

It seems to me that one requires an ontology of power only to the extent one lacks power, but thirsts for if quite simply because one understands on an unconscious, structural level that affluence is a justification for their own suffering, but this affluence they also lack. The justice is outside of themselves. A self-valuing process attempts to appropriate it toward the center, hence the success of consumer culture.

Real power in this world schemes and acts everywhere to gain control-- why? Is it not the same self-valuing negation-pull as if to appropriate to their center something which is their justice yet which too is lacking? This is why art and creation are in a certain sense totally bullshit; they only have some meaning when grounded, when they express what they are not, whereas art/creation 'in themselves' is meaningless, only another form of false appropriation behavior compensating for a psychologically-uncollapsible pain. But it's probably inevitable these forces striving for power, striving out of blind if cultivated pathology, will achieve their success and remake the world-- not in the image of some overman, but in the image of the empty negativity/hatred which lives in their own hearts, which is the cause anyway of the death-bubble slowly proliferating across all the world's surfaces.

I don't believe anyone is even capable of willing to power, because no one really understands themselves. Only the "doesn't understand" seems most to lust after its chance to "will", and after a feeling of power. But that feeling tears open voids in the existential fabric, ultimately proves self-defeating in the sense that it cannot close up the distances (irreconcilables) within derivative being. But I'm not at all mocking or belittling this attempt, 99% of humanity lives and loves in this manner of the quiet unconsciousness, the (not so dark) night of the soul. It's a beautiful thing, something we probably wish we could also participate in, except that we can't, since after all we are philosophers.

Nietzsche as attempt to reimagine the meaning of philosophy as attempt to posit a final category of opposition against which things struggle and against which philosophy may find its own "return to nature" in that same struggle.. yes I like that, we can only finally take our philosophy with us as we fall back into the non-philosophical world, enriching even life itself with our own over-abundance. This is our privileged pleasure as philosophers: that we may partake in the rarest thing of all, to truly give something in return, freely, for our having lived.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Wed Sep 30, 2015 11:38 pm

Philosophy and astrology... Is not the zen painter's remark a revelation that Nietzsche hated Wagner on purpose? Almost to show that the greatest love of all, the love of the night sky, is a good example of how philosophy must value: negatively.

Change the world? Let the world change me... What I give back will be only fertility, so that when I return, it can change me all the more!

Philosophers' love affair is with the world. But perhaps we are not wrong to seriously limit Nietzsche, and see what this love can do... on a condensed scale.

 

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:34 am

" ... deliberately taken it upon him to simplify philosophical method, by basically positing something against it and taking philosophy to be only that which aggressively rejects that something ..."


Yes, but all philosophies do that, as the truth can neither be said or written. It belongs to the sphere of transcendence.


In the Recurrence of the Same, only what embraces itself as a member in the impartial totality of the world-ontos, spinning under the wheel of the eternal, returns, for everything else does not actually exist- and all suffering and life-negating values- that is, partial representations of the totality, therefor cease to exist in eternity. Only joy returns, then, only the will that wills, impartially, the totality- as Nietzsche said, joy is deeper than suffering, deeper than midnight. Thus the Eternal Return is neither a scientific theory or the psychological challenge most people think it is these days. It is a purifying principle, a way of theorizing the totality. This Totality is Nietzsche's Absolute- the eternal recurrence is just the philosophical model to make it readable.


But consciousness, or rather the human existential-subject, must have an immanent grounding in this recurrence, and the WtP is exactly that grounding, a point upon which the Will can identify itself with the creative-destructive will of Being and Change- ie. as N says, the Wtp is the world seen from inside. This point of contact allows one to embrace one's self as a datum in the impartial totality. One only returns to one's self insofar as one wills to power; it is what I call an arresting image of thought. Ie.:

The problem is that, before this
process, the self grasps itself obscurely and as mere pathos, and that after the process is
gone through, the self loses itself within a hypostasis of its own experience, within the
erotic form itself- a form whose boundaries and limit, though it must of course
continuously dissipate and throw the self back into the oscillations of daemonic
polarization and the exhaustless production of new erotic fixations and artistic forms, the
self takes to be its own boundary and limit

In my philosophy this way of imagining the totality just amounts to what Pezer said: "This forces the philosopher into the arresting movement of the erotic self-image, and separates him from the transcendental horizon. Philosophy becomes will to power resolving the duality within itself, the same pride getting back up from the blows of weakness to appropriate the will to power in it." So Nietzsche philosophically solidified his real-ego as much as it can be solidified, fortifying himself with this Totality and recurrence against what he perceived as destructive forces and dissolution.


The totality of beings is not Being in my system, for there is no Being behind beings. The totality becomes untenable, and also the eternal recurrence. But certainly not eternity.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:11 am

In other words, the WtP functions as a stabilizing principle for the daemon. The quiescence and gaze of the not yet exhausted creator, with the conscience of active surfaces, incorporative genius, and formative powers- of a great innitency in that the weight of time seems to crush the stuff of mere matter, as most perfectly characterize music and architecture, signify the daemonic, not in heroic ascent, but in its attaining a certain degree of stability, in having at last arrested its own movement in the production of the erotic form; in having momentarily resolved the duality which it itself is and creates, in having unfolded from out of itself the continua of depth and height, horizontal and vertical space- of power, the underlying core of the vital forces, along with the basic discontiguity of underlying psychogenesis, thereby revealing something of what the Greeks call the psyche- the passive depth of the soul penetrated by the active nous; the reinscription of the structure of psyche upon this continua is a more fitting description of the heroic-daemonic, and what the Greeks juxtaposed with psyche- that is, dike, or Justice.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Thu Oct 01, 2015 7:24 am

And just unifying and connecting my last couple of posts on the forum:

The quiescence and gaze of the not yet exhausted creator, with the conscience of active surfaces, incorporative genius, and formative powers- of a great innitency in that the weight of time seems to crush the stuff of mere matter, as most perfectly characterize music and architecture, signify the daemonic, not in heroic ascent, but in its attaining a certain degree of stability, in having at last arrested its own movement in the production of the erotic form; in having momentarily resolved the duality which it itself is and creates, in having unfolded from out of itself the continua of good and evil, depth and height, horizontal and vertical space, with the general discontiguity of underlying psychogenesis, thereby revealing something of what the Greeks call the psyche- the passive depth of the soul penetrated by the active nous; the reinscription of the structure of psyche upon this continua is a more fitting description of the heroic-daemonic, and what the Greeks juxtaposed with psyche- that is, dike, Order or Justice. The deliverance of Dike and the restitution of order, which Pound epitomizes in his translation of the dying words of Herakles- "in what splendor it all coheres," in the Promethean myth indeed came of Herakles, and the later portion of this name comes from the "klea andron" or song of the heroes, the eternal myth upon which all the others are modeled and which serves as the undying wellspring of Greek memory, as animated the verses down through Homer, while Hera refers to the eldest daughter of Cronus; psyche impresses upon dike this Heraklean moment of perishing, splendorous coherence, out of which the articulation of the klea andron and the song of the heroes is generated, out of which the heroic is recognized. The libidinous dynamics of the Erotic create the surface topography or drama on the periphery of this depth- the symbolically reified mythos of psyche, in all the depth of daemonic agony and passion, into which Eros cannot fully descend by katabasis, though he finds his task in creatively cohering the horizon of meaning in ascent through the world of forms, with the unconscious remainder of Schelling left behind in the depth as the unincorporated psychic datum, some part of which is brought back to the surface with every new tension through which Eros heroically develops, the klea andron continually finding new names for itself, rather it is Achilles or Homer- or even Aeneas; the eroto-daemonic signifies the activation of the passive, in other words- something that the philosophy of the will to power cannot achieve, for, like a stretched spring, the will to power must remain a suspended consciousness and passive psychodymanic tension: if one becomes conscious of it and actualizes it, it is no longer will to power. All sickness and pain represents a threat to organo-affective unity, which we feel as our immediate sense of self or real ego, which operates as a threshold against dissolution, or to speak with the above- against admission of this Heraklean coherence, out of which the daemonic establishes its stability. One must allow such dissolution to displace one's erotic center, through which the real ego acquires stability, so as to encourage the development of more comprehensive, discontinguous states of consciousness, and the orientation with the ideal; for the highest consciousness reconstructs the threshold as the potential excitability of the body as a whole, inscribing the structure of psyche within the liberated continuum of revealed creative forces, rather then using, as the real ego does, a small partition of the affects as the potentiation or state of excitability: the health of the new body that emerges here is free of sickness, for it is incorporated sickness- the old health is simply the ability to endure a certain amount of dissolution and return to the threshold level established by the real ego. Nietzsche's will-to-power is the greatest realization of the real-ego. In the Recurrence of the Same, only what embraces itself as a member in the impartial totality of the world-ontos, spinning under the wheel of the eternal, returns, for everything else does not actually exist- and all suffering and life-negating values- that is, partial representations of the totality, therefor cease to exist in eternity. Only joy returns, then, only the will that wills, impartially, the totality- as Nietzsche said, joy is deeper than suffering, deeper than midnight. Thus the Eternal Return is neither a scientific theory or the psychological challenge most people think it is these days. It is a purifying principle, a way of theorizing the totality. This Totality is Nietzsche's Absolute- the eternal recurrence is just the philosophical model to make it readable. But consciousness, or rather the human existential-subject, must have an immanent grounding in this recurrence, and the Will to Power is exactly that grounding, a point upon which the Will can identify itself with the creative-destructive will of Being and Change. The Will to Power is the world seen from inside, as Nietzsche says. This point of contact allows one to embrace one's self as a datum in the impartial totality. One only returns to one's self insofar as one wills to power; it is what I call an arresting image of thought, erotic fixation, or episteme. Nietzsche philosophically solidified his real-ego as much as it can be solidified, fortifying himself with this Totality and recurrence against what he perceived as destructive forces and dissolution. Herakles' dying words, as translated by Pound- in what splendor it all coheres, are deceptive. He says it while he is dying because he "knows" that it coheres- the universe that is, even though he cannot understand the coherence or hold it together like the false constructed totality of the will to power; the Heraklean moment of coherence in heroic death points to nothing else but the transcendent, which the illusion that there is some Being behind beings, that there is totality, conceals- the illusion conceived in the philosophy that reconstructs the world out of itself, as precisely itself.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud


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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:45 am

From a message I wrote to Parodites, on the spheres of conscious experience/structure of this whole operation:


Certainly the concepts pertaining to the philosophy itself will span all spheres of meaning. Morality has been this task to understand how the same idea operates differently and means differently in different contexts, which also really means according to different fields of consciousness or identity spheres. One cannot reconcile them except through imposed falsification and denial, such as occurs in criminal justice/legal systems. Political correctness is another method of trying to remove the tension, but it cannot succeed since the tension is integral.

Epistemic and ontic: these are the base, we have a sensory stream of images and impressions, a "feels like" to being alive, proprioception and somnambulism like any other animal.. "dreaming ourselves"; then upon that has been constructed language and Logos, so we become possible to factual understanding and objectivity. Language tries to impress downward upon the neurology of the episteme, but cannot alter that neurology in any fundamental way, therefore the immanent sphere is produced as simply the living tension of impossibility to reconcile language with sensory reality, to put it crudely. The immanence sphere is essentially composed of those possible experiences in which the tension is momentarily abated by virtue of the scope and range of coloring of that experience being significant enough to 'hold' both linguistic and sensory consciousness. Immanence is thus the sphere of emotions like happiness and sorrow, also the sense of a higher purpose, religious need, God etc. Simply put, these experiential configurations open up possibilities to the epistemic and ontic wherein both may process according o their own nature and not infringe upon each other.

The problem with that is, no immanence-space can really sustain that abeyance forever, because a new war appears in how both the epistemic and the ontic (sensory stream/feelings and language) are expanding into the immanent experiences and starting to saturate it; the immanence must continue to expand in parallel to the expansions of epistemic-ontic consciousness or else these latter begin to infringe upon each other. Thus we arrive at the transcendent, which is simply those experiences and states as most allow the immanent to maintain itself as living experience as a parallel expansion that keeps pace with, or outpaces, the growth of the epistemic-ontic experiences. These latter are laying down neurological fibers of "memory" all the time and immanence must either encompass those fibers' electrochemical activity or it must be immune to that activity; where it encompasses it we have higher ideals, aesthetics, God, love, and early philosophies, whereas where it does not encompass it we have "sin", self-falling into matter such as hedonism, anger and fear, the apotheosis of the animal organism. Here also we have an impetus for what Nietzsche called will to power, because to the immanent experience this "falling into oneself" as animality or the pre-ontic is a kind of quasi-immanence from the perspective of the sense-stream of feelings and immediate impressions, just too as a kind of falling into language and logical analysis (math, empiricism) is a kind of quasi-immanence for the ontic. Thus developing philosophy split along the lines of Nietzsche or Russell, continental or analytic, in order to attempt a partial reification of either the sensory-immediate or the linguistic modes.

The will to power represents an immanence that cannot keep up in its expansions but nevertheless attempts to stabilize itself against the epistemic-ontic intrusions by attempting to align itself with these others, to "know" them as they are, to apply transcendent love backward into the pre-immanent consciousness. This can only be partially successful, but it can be successful; the problem is that this is not what immanence really wants to do, this is another kind of falsehood against the self, a perversion of consciousness' actual structure. The immanent ought to be expanding always enough to encompass both the sensory-impressions body and the linguistic-factually-oriented body, so that each may persist according to their own nature and need and find harmony with each other. When the immanent aligns its experiential parameters with the sensory-immediate or with the linguistic-empirical it achieves a temporary relief from its failure of adequate self-expanding but the cost of that relief is to fundamentally cripple the immanent dimension itself.

The transcendent is therefore simply the possibilities open to immanence as allow that immanence to avoid failure, failure either of slow or no expansion or a failure of the kind of Nietzdche or Russell. Transcendence is the realm of philosophy but also is the realm of human love and deepest passion and joy, since these achieve for immanence a fast enough expanding sphere of expedience able to successfully allow the epistemic and the ontic components to process naturally according most to their own nature. Love and joyful passion are a counterpart to philosophy because either accomplishes the same ends for immanence, but the methods are different in either case, since love or joyful work are a kind of "immanent immanence" wherein the limits or horizons of the immanent are perpetually self-deepening across all relevant fields of conscious experience whereas for philosophy we have that backward glance of immanence into, not merely either the epistemic or ontic alone, but both at once, uniting "feeling" and "thinking" in one experience-- "knowing", understanding. Love and joy do not need to understand, for they are already alive and thus are literally already-always a form of understanding as such, whereas philosophy is simply that other pole of understanding which lives only in so far as it is actively reconstructing knowledge out of itself, as itself.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

Odinwar <---[truth]---> Jeraz

Peace. War. Love. Wordz




“Grow a pair, preferably between your eyes.” -Styxhexenhammer666

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PostSubject: Re: WtP   Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:51 am

Yes Capable what you said about the transcendent is true- Love and joy do not need to understand. Herakles' dying words which I mentioned- in what splendor it all coheres, are deceptive. He says it while he is dying because he "knows" it coheres- the universe that is, even though he cannot understand the coherence or hold it together like the false constructed totality of the WtP; the Heraklean moment of coherence in heroic death is the transcendent.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: WtP   

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WtP
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Before The Light :: Tree :: Psychology-
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