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 On the Value of Suffering.

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:54 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Why are all films warzones?
Because technology has allowed art to be truthful.


"All" films are NOT war zones but for those which are, it is not because technology has allowed art to be truthful, it is because of the mind of the artist[s] creating the film who has the courage to speak the truth and to show the truth.

Technology is a tool and perhaps art is too but they can only be as truthful and "real" as human consciousness will allow.


 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:59 am

I find some of my most philocophical moments are my shallowest. Prufundity permits, shapes shallowness.

Creativity is recognition of the hact that there is no path to be unvelied, but that unveling is path making.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:27 am

Pezer wrote:
I find some of my most philocophical moments are my shallowest. Prufundity permits, shapes shallowness.

Creativity is recognition of the hact that there is no path to be unvelied, but that unveling is path making.

What do you mean here by "shallowest". I know what the word means but I don't understand your thought.

For me, a philosophical moment might be the instant (though not really that instant) realization that in some regard, something I am thinking has no basis in reality but in delusion.
Or that my perspective is NOT THE ONLY ONE in existence.

How would they be shallow?

I define a philosophical moment by a surging or insight pertaining to some truth or gem of wisdom.

i can accept your definition of creativity. I think that it's also having a vision where nothingness existed beforehand. Maybe i didn't express that well. For example, Michaelangelo seeing David in the block of marble...though a block of marble isn't "nothingness".
But creativity is an energy, a life force, which brings something into existence.


 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:04 pm

That profundity shapes shallowness and contrariwise is a Nietzschean thing to say, but I prefer to think of it like this: if you are conscious of what you are actually saying and why you're saying it, it is profound, and if you are simply reacting and vomiting words as a reflex response, then it is shallow.


Creating is just as much about putting veils over things as it is taking them off. The creation itself- beauty, as the beautiful form, is a veil.

 

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A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:13 pm

Parodites wrote:
That profundity shapes shallowness and contrariwise is a Nietzschean thing to say, but I prefer to think of it like this: if you are conscious of what you are actually saying and why you're saying it, it is profound, and if you are simply reacting and vomiting words as a reflex response, then it is shallow.

I agree. In philosophical context, the profundity of what wants to be said, is frequently too great to allow the faculties of language to 'regulate it into being' without distortion. Not all thinkers suffer of this, but many do, as did Nietzsche, and as do I - often the profundity of a thought will force me to use poetic language to indicate what I mean, and leave it to those who haven an inkling or premonition of it, or some experience with it, to bring to sense together.

I disagree that control of language equals control of thought, though of course it does mean control of communicating thought. This is why my own philosophical work is necessary (for me) - language did not have terms or constructs to express my thoughts. This is why I speak of philosophical grammar.

Quote :
Creating is just as much about putting veils over things as it is taking them off. The creation itself- beauty, as the beautiful form, is a veil.

Yes, this is one of the things I do like in Zizek, he often wanders about in language to illustrate how the mask actually reveals the face. It's one of his pet-curiosities, and I don't blame him, it's fascinating how veiling and bringing into being are related.

 

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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:29 pm

I don't think language's role in humanity is primarily communication, that is a secondary benefit, its primary job is to model internal consciousness.



I use poetic invention, not by being forced to, but when I choose to, for sometimes thoughts are more powerful when they are half exposed, carved into relief as Nietzsche said: in fact, some thoughts can only be communicated at all by being carved in relief; almost all thoughts are self-negating, they can only exist when they exist half-said. If I wanted, I could explain everything with clinical precision, for I have never been at a loss of words before, but a lot of the time I prefer to speak poetically in order to induce specific psychological responses in the reader.

Not only am I never at a loss of words but, to the contrary, in my inspired moments the world itself and the things in it seem to speak through me, to reverberate in my consciousness and modulate themselves to the point of becoming a kind of physical language. Pre-existing language did not have terms for my thoughts either- but I did, I made up my own terms to describe what language had not yet evolved a capacity to describe, so technically linguistic command was still primary.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 4:48 pm

Yes, it's not that I am at loss for words - my poesis will forge words and constructs - but that language is at loss for words. Philosophy is thus a creator of language.

To explain something in absolute detail often prevents conveying its significance. Largely because truth does not always signify reality -  significance requires the subjective investment. And there are many spoken truths that only draw away from significance. My comments on astrology here being case in point.

It's part of the 'aesthetic' standards philosophy requires, aesthetic in the sense that geometry is aesthetics; all forms must build on each other. There can be no hiatuses between the concepts, which means that an all too literal, unrounded attempt will inevitably charge the limits of the used language, and prevent the terms from being appropriated by another context.

Philosophy must advance like the tide, and stay true to its nature as horizon. I see that, which is why I have need of this forum, and of cooperation. I tend to give away truths too fast so that they either wound unjustly or fall on deaf ears, this is not philosophy. What needs to be done first is the contextualization of our language in a frame of sensory reference.

Only when philosophy is understood as the art of self-discernment in a context which is impossible to ground, do that subtle turbulences that create character become essential to the building of a daemonic world, which gives birth to 'gods', happinesses, scientific and artistic heights that we know are possible but can not be justified in terms of our crunched model of the psyche.

 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides


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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:03 pm

Words are not personal, experience is. This is the missmatch. Experience is shaped by instinct. This is true. Profundity is more personal than words, the more profound the words, the less distance between them and wisdom. The more distance, the more creativity, opposed to recognition of the pre-horizontal, the less path and the less necessary the imposing of vails, which will always come no matter how deep or shallow or clear or exhaustive.

If there is one thing I would accept as ontological, its vails. They are a metaphor for distance.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Words usually make things more confusing than they really are.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:12 pm

Pezer wrote:
Words are not personal, experience is. This is the missmatch.

But a spoken word and a written sentence are personal. Only in uncritical repeating there is mismatch. Quoting can be a form of acknowledging true match.

In my experience, words can be (among) the most profound things. I think it may differ from man to man, for some the image is more dominant, or other forms of ideas.

Quote :
If there is one thing I would accept as ontological, its vails. They are a metaphor for distance.

And for transformation.

Something can only become different if it is not seen; if all its relationships are internal.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:14 pm

Capable wrote:
Words usually make things more confusing than they really are.

Thus philosophy is really the search for the least confusing language.
This is absolutely different from the simplest language.
The language must be as complex internally as its relationship with that which it can not be.
It must come to correlate, rather than indicate. Come to flow right alongside of reality, rather than orthogonally imprinted on it like an arrow on top of a power-up.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:05 pm

As I see it, we have two different types of language; The first is to indicate the here and now, the second to indicate otherwise. In the present, the words are viscerally related to our gestures and our environment. This is the art of 'talk'. Animals have similar functions. In reference to elsewhere in space-time, the sensory apparatus is wholly synthesized into the function of language, and removed from the accompanying experience.  This is the art of storytelling. Our entire metaphysical apparatus consists of it. It is biologically determined that the most compelling narrative captures our conceptual faculties.  I'm entertaining the notion that philosophy seeks to indicate the here and now by means of storytelling. A story becomes philosophical when it touches the reader the center of his experience. And only in as far as it is applicable to the temporal here and now, does it tell an actual story.

 

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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Fri Oct 09, 2015 9:57 am

Pezer,

Quote :
Words are not personal, experience is.


You might want to define "personal" then. The way I look at it, words are personal, unique to the individual. You and I might be asked to write a poem about something, anything. It doesn't matter what. We will come from different places also because of that "experience' which you said. But we also experience qualia and things differently and the words we use will describe that thing differently.

Quote :
Experience is shaped by instinct.

Maybe I'm not understanding your meaning here. Experience can be shaped by the way in which each "individual" looks at the world. We all sensate things differently as a result of our brain chemistry, our past experiences, our personal human spirit. I will grant you this though. Our behavior is often shaped by our instinct since we are after all human animals and sometimes lacking in cognitive thought and reflection.


Quote :
Profundity is more personal than words, the more profound the words, the less distance between them and wisdom.

Not necessarily. I think that would depend on the individual. People may speak quite profoundly, move others to tears yet not have a grain of "real" wisdom within them. The charlatan can do that.

Quote :
If there is one thing I would accept as ontological, its vails. They are a metaphor for distance.

Did you mean to say "veils"? Or vails. Not sure what you would mean by that.
But I suppose so. Veils hide what is not yet ready to be revealed.
But can you explain what you mean in relation to ontology and veils?

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:29 pm

" Not necessarily. I think that would depend on the individual. People may speak quite profoundly, move others to tears yet not have a grain of "real" wisdom within them. The charlatan can do that. "


Wisdom is too much to ask for, I'd rather say that some can speak well and yet not actually mean a word of what they say. One has to speak profoundly and actually mean it.


As far as experience goes, experience doesn't mean anything until you have cognized it and transformed it into thought and words. Without that it's just a memory.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: On the Value of Suffering.   Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:24 pm

The veils here are of suffering. They are in the degrees to which suffering has been pronounced, to which life has been turned inside out. In a sense, it takes an oracle to read the innards, oracle being someone who is half in the chasm, Hades if you will, and half in the word. This, like the steam rising from the blood, is the joy of philosophy-pure, the life that is given absolutely to it, without any pretense of being 'natural', i.e. 'innocent'; this is Lucifer himself. Not before was a philosophy so demonic, and so easy to denounce, and so tempting to take for weakness. Not because it appears weak, but because it pronounces all the things that we think of as weak in the form of a singular will - it appears evil. And there is no romance without it. Philosophy that learns to romance itself as itself, no goals will dare come near this dance. They dance in other arenas, and all that is good dances but the best thing of all is distance. The dance of distance, mountaineering, philosophy - how do we cross the distance without closing it? Wizards have the answers, because they know history.

 

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