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 Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question

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PostSubject: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Sun Dec 25, 2011 3:29 pm

May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Fri Dec 30, 2011 12:45 pm

Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Sat Dec 31, 2011 1:46 pm

Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:54 pm

Often we discover and learn far more through losing than winning, especially about ourselves.

 

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"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Jan 02, 2012 12:46 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Cool
yes that works too it would seem

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:47 pm

James S Saint wrote:
Or by simply not striving to win or lose.
Why pursue what you perceive as a loss?

Cool
Actually maybe not... because if you do not desire to lose then you have won nothing ... the question is how do you win the unwinable... not how can you avoid losing the unwinable... but with reagards to the concept that is fair enough... one need simply to not care, ultimately...

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Thu Jan 05, 2012 5:54 pm

Thomas Merton, the christian mystic has a nice translation of the Taoist Sage Chuang Tzu talking about the topic at hand.. Chuang tzu had the right idea I believe :

When an archer is shooting for nothing
He has all his skill.
If he shoots for a brass buckle
He is already nervous.
If he shoots for a prize of gold
He goes blind
Or sees two targets-
He is out of his mind!

His skill has not changed. But the prize
Divides him. He cares.
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
And the need to win
Drains him of power.





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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:19 am

Quote :
He thinks more of winning
Than of shooting -
Yes! Those who excel simply do not care so much if they win or lose as much as they care to so what they do well.

A prize, acclaim, may be the result, but it is strictly a contingency. This is also the reason perhaps why often, real artists are made uncertain by acclaim, are distracted from their true skill, seek after success disgrace so they can 'hate' the world as they did before, when they were unknown and had only their art.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:01 am

Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me. Rolling Eyes
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.

 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Tue Feb 07, 2012 3:29 pm

VaerosTanarg wrote:
Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Your answer to that question ALSO sounds like buddhist or daoist thinking to me. Rolling Eyes
And what would be the reason for desiring to lose in the first place?
Practically speaking, if one desires to lose, its best to leave something alone, no? Or to think out the situation, question why one does feel that way - is the desire to lose based on wisdom or fear or insecurity? And then to take that and to question it further and further and further...
To begin by automatically assuming that what is 'unwinnable' is, in actuality, unwinnable, is a defeatist attitude.

The only answer I would give to your question - "how does one win the unwinnable" and of course, there are legions of answers, but the first one that comes to me is simply to begin by changing one's belief, perception and thinking - by 'seeing' that there is always the possibility of 'winning' and acting on that, until one has exhausted all avenues through action and within their own mind, and comes to the conclusion that it is 'unwinnable' - even though in fact it still may not be....or wins.

The mind is a mirror of the will or a lack of it. Transcend your mind and your will will rise with it.
Yes I think that is basically the point... to change the self to overcome the situation... nothing is unwinable, even what seems such can be overcome by the state of mind...

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:47 am

Abstract wrote:
Abstract wrote:
May not be the best place for this... (I have the answer...at least that I would give...)

How does one win the unwinable?

By desiring to lose.
Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:08 pm

VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:29 pm

Abstract wrote:
VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.
At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:32 pm

VaerosTanarg wrote:
Abstract wrote:
VaerosTanarg wrote:

Is it even logical to suppose that we can even desire to lose something which is 'unwinable". Wouldn't that be like grasping thin air?
For me, at least in this moment, the answer is by desiring 'nothing' either way. If we are 'desiring nothing' we are in total detachment.


There are many answers to many things....some more valid than others...depending on one's own perception. I may change mine yet again.
I think i agree with you it seems more reasonable to desire nothing then to desire to lose.
At the same time, isn't it true that if we 'desire nothing' we might have to be dead?
We have to desire something sometimes. After all, we're human.
It comes down to learning to be discriminate human beings. lol
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

 

___________
"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Tue May 01, 2012 9:28 am

Abstract...

Quote :
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.
And in what position does that then leave the 'one'? Smile

 

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Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Sat May 05, 2012 2:04 pm

i dont follow Question

 

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"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Mon May 07, 2012 9:38 am

Abstract wrote:
i dont follow Question
Well, that's a good thing Abstract - especially if the leader has no idea where he is going. Forge your own path.


Quote :
Perhaps what one should desire then is not to lose but rather to simply not desire to win, or in otherwords have no desire regarding at least winning in that case.

And in what position does that then leave the 'one'?

I don't suppose there is actually only one answer to this question but I had one in mind. But, what would you say is another position? A hint, don't let the written word throw you or mislead you. scratch

 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Thu May 10, 2012 12:04 am

i dont know... there is desire to lose, desire nothing, simply don't care... i don't know what else there is

 

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"There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance." -Socrates
"Nature herself has imprinted on the minds of all the idea of God." -Cicero
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain an idea without necessarily believing it." -Aristotle
"I have gained this by philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law." -Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: Perhaps a Zen-Buddhist Question   Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:50 pm

This is another question that is pertinent to what we've been discussing and takes to it from a whole different angle.

My answer here is that we win the unwinnable by considering the road to be the goal, without actually saying so; we bravely move toward a goal, but secretly know that this goal is only a means to the end of moving, expressing our strength, being alive.

So we win the goal for us, we place it in our bosom without actually reaching  it, thus without neutralizing it. To win the unwinnable we must set unreachable goals. A bit like the moon might be said to have the goal of plummeting into Earth.

 

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