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 To My Friend Sysiphus

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PostSubject: To My Friend Sysiphus   Tue Aug 16, 2016 2:04 pm

I have come, after these few years, to admire most the two posters I used to dislike the most. Hell, deep down I still dislike their obscene piety, but they are the only two who can possibly be called cynics.

A cynic's arrogance is one of true knowledge, leaving it the only lasting actual philosophic tradition. In Iambiguous' case, he at least knows one philosophic question.

In our friend Sysiphus' case, he is the only human I know who follows the cynic philologic tradition and is thus acquainted with a richer, more traditional current in as far as tradition or current etc.

Sup guy? Long time no see, good to hear from ya.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:06 pm

I'm not a proponent of cynicism, either the cynicism of the philosophical cynics or the standard non-philosophical cynicism of most people... I find either one to be poisonous, limiting, not very interesting. The best thing I can say about philosophical cynicism is that it at last avoids some pathologies... but nonetheless commits itself to others anyway.

What do you value most about philosophical (or non-philosophical) cynicism? To me it is like a self-imposed limitation on just about every aspect of thought, sentiment and life, a kind of excuse for living small, or a response to a certain psychological type or condition/s... But I'm curious how you see it?

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Tue Aug 16, 2016 6:12 pm

Interesting that we can trace the modern deep cynicism of conservatism and the far-right to Christian cynicism. Nietzsche of course detested Christianity for its weak, pessimistic, cynical attitude toward life.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:42 pm

Cynics have just come to realize that 90% of listening is bullshit. That's the philosophical thought. Like when Diogenes proved Xeno wrong by drawing a line and walking past it.

They know, at least, that they are right in their questions. Socrates was a particularily venomous exponent. Even through Plato, you can tell his questons were legit. Socrates is also proof that Cynics are the most powerful, even more than religious thinkers.

Philosophy is of course in any case greater than cynicism. But cynicism knows that, that's why all cynics, even Nietzsche, are clowns. True philosophy is too much of a joy to be lugubrious.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:41 am

Yes because 90% of what people think is bullshit. Unquestionably this is true, and the cynic is one who knows this, as you say. But that is only a barest ground for the possibility of philosophy which just means for true understanding and clarity of vision. Cynics cultivate a psychological condition for enduring the bullshit, probably because they feel unable to escape it even with their virtue of asceticism; asceticism itself is already a capitulation to that which one aims to escape from.

I like the tireless, striving, error-making, never looking back, take all names, fearless and unapologetic thinkers for whom the notion of ascetic withdrawal into a "justified refusal to speak" wouldn't even be thinkable. Much less a clownish joker's routine masking some not-so-subtle plea for others to hear the kernel of wisdom behind one's litany of questions.

I like, in short, those thinkers who are concerned with truth, and not with what others think of it nor with trying to "convince" anybody of anything. I can't imagine anything more tedious and uninteresting than trying to convince someone of a philosophical idea. Cynics beg for attention by passive-aggressive means, Nietzsche didn't appreciate Socrates because of this. But in any case, the self defense mechanism of cynicism, like that of stoicism generally, is at times necessary as a particular stage in a larger development.

I wonder; what is the cynic really hiding? What is his next evolutionary phase? butterfly from cocoon, maybe.


We should have courage not only for our truths, but even more so for our errors; courage of truth is easy, this is what separates us philosophers from everyone else, is that we have the courage for truth... but so much harder then for us to have courage for our errors! The cynic has no courage for error, only benign laughter in the face of the lack of a perceived will for truth.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 12:55 am

I've met a few potentially capable thinkers over the years who could have used a good dose of cynicism -- because they merely remained potential and nothing more. When we fall in love with some self-made illusion it can be cynicism that shakes us awake from that dream... In this way perhaps cynicism is only as valuable as it is unnecessary to actually defend anything truthful and good in us.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 2:15 pm

What is unacceptable about cynics is what is unacceptable about all politicians : that they are politicians. The very craft is the craft of deciding what happens with people's lives other than yours.

The cynic politics is the best,  always arousing from a disillusioned prodigy who, having seen further than any of his peers, does away with the idea of peers. Thus only born of the noblest loves. In philosophy, the bounty from so many battles can only make the seeming wretch feel rich.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:27 pm

Pezer wrote:
What is unacceptable about cynics is what is unacceptable about all politicians : that they are politicians. The very craft is the craft of deciding what happens with people's lives other than yours.

The cynic politics is the best,  always arousing from a disillusioned prodigy who, having seen further than any of his peers, does away with the idea of peers. Thus only born of the noblest loves. In philosophy, the bounty from so many battles can only make the seeming wretch feel rich.

So the cynic as intensely interested in impacting and interfering in the lives of others? This is perhaps a primary psychological motivation of cynical questioning, but to me it seems that the cynic's most primary motive is always himself... that the desire or need to change others is a manifestation of something about the cynic which drives that desire/need. After all, we already know that the cynic isn't driven by hope, nor by a cumulative massive vision of Truth or The Good, since the cynic preemptively rejects such things.

So what is left? A kind of pragmatic slow march toward "a better world"? I doubt that has much if anything to do with the real reasons behind a cynic's intentions to affect others. Although that may still be an outcome, maybe even one that can still be desirable within the cynical point of view. Or maybe the cynic just tells himself that it's desirable after-the-fact.


What are a cynic's values?

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:42 pm

"What are a cynic's values?"

Careful, that's how they get you. Probably the only universal cynic value is to trust no-one other than h'self. All other values remain unspoken, but suggested, like mounds of rocks along almost-paths on mountains.

For example, good humor is an inevitable concecuence of the truths revealed by cynic practice. Isn't that the most monstrous thing about cynics? Their good humor in the face of vast things?

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 6:59 pm


 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Wed Aug 17, 2016 9:56 pm

Let's put it this way. There are three types of philosophers that go through serious philosophical peril, or rather have already gone: resented types, all sortsa ideology (the weakest); cynics with their jokes and cruelties hiding a knee-bucklung awe; and whatever it is I have only seen frenchmen and you do.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Thu Aug 18, 2016 9:08 am

The thing with cynics is they often have a lot of knowledge and wisdom to share, but rarely do they actually share anything significant of it. Think about people like Tab and Faust at ILP, these are highly cynical types who could really participate and help others out but usually choose not to engage beyond a surface level (unless they're in some kind of very specific sub-field specialty area they happen to be well versed in (trust themselves not to fuck something up or look like an idiot). Why? Because they are afraid of making a mistake, of being wrong.

Oh sure they can joke about being wrong on little things, call themselves out, admit the limits of what they can know, but that isn't being wrong. That isn't making an error.

Philosophy truly builds from the errors it makes. There's no other fucking way to do it. Cynics are terrified of making errors, so they hide their wisdom away even from themselves. This is why I despise cynicism so deeply.

I am all about a philosophy of the error. Errors should be encouraged, not avoided. We should love our errors, truly. I suppose this is why I was able to intuitively grasp Parodites' incredible philosophy of the excess, which almost no one else seems to really understand. Error is a kind of excessiveness; a true error, where we commit the entirety of what we are to something only to be proven wrong in some way, is a greater kind of excessivity of being that brings us closest to ourselves, provides the best kind of uplift and laughter. Perhaps cynics simply need to lean how to really laugh at themselves, not out of depression or malaise or sarcasm but out of pure joyfulness... But then they would no longer be cynical.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Thu Aug 18, 2016 3:15 pm

Wouldn't they?

But yes. The reckless, violently curious nature of a cynic leads him always to be supremely careful about how he proceeds. I will not cast upon writers of this circle, other than to profess some shadow of my appreciation. All have heard some, except Parodites, who I admire in a more direct, adverserial fashion.

I wanted to burn the world. But I found that the tinder was just not there yet. So shoot me, I'mma go cut trees. Just please don't tell me it's because I have forsaken fire.

As for what brought others to the "game," like Tab and Faust, I cannot guess. But I believe it was Mark Twain who divided geniouses into two categories: the kind that make you feel good about genious, and the kind that make you feel inferior.

I guess Machiavelli was trying to figure out how to do both. Which is my point: whether you like or dislike cynics, the cynic power is fucking vast. I veeeeeery much like the idea of the vastest rhetorical power in human history being born out of joyful disdain. That speaks directly to my heart. Also, how it expresses so directly a philosopher's humility before the sophie he philos.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:36 am

Irony turns the cynic into a romantic. I am a romantic.

What of burning the world? I speak of it in this thread, with regard to breaking the wheel of the kharmic aeons: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law



 

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A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:01 pm

It means I wanted the entire value of the world to be transformed by knowledge of itself through fire, meaning all value finding its best self and moving on to the next Aeon.

Unfortunately, or fortunately, that is not yet the case. It would be a trashy, shitty fire.

Water is what I seek now. It will make much wood grow, and make combustion of life, full valuing, possible some day (maybe).


Another way to see it is the way Lee Scratch Perry does. The world needs to become safe enough in its greatness that Satan can go into outer space without feeling like he missed out.

The fire is a metaphore for a transformation. I view it as interior, but it is combustion because it takes the rest of all of known existence to happen.

 

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PostSubject: Re: To My Friend Sysiphus   Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:58 am

I have been off line for a while. And I'm not sure this thread was directed at me but I will respond anyhow.

I have been accused of being cynical on numerous occasions. I have never been offended by that.

I am a Philosophical Taoist. But I was, and still am, a Nietzschean before labelling myself a Taoist.

I observe life and its processes and relate in words what I have seen. Some don't like the pictures I paint and therefore call me a cynic.

I enjoy irony and paradox as well. I even have an irony board.
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