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 Pillage the oil?

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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Pillage the oil?    Sat Sep 17, 2016 7:29 am

From a New York Times article, what are your thoughts either on the article itself (is it accurate or inaccurate to what Trump has said and how he thinks), or thoughts on the notion of pillaging the resources of those countries we defeat in war?


    "
    He wants the United States to become a nation that steals from its enemies. He’s already called for war crimes — killing family members of terrorists, torturing suspects. He would further violate the Geneva Conventions by making thieves out of a first-class military.

    “It used to be to the victor belong the spoils,” Trump complained to the compliant Matt Lauer in the now infamous commander-in-chief forum. Oh, for the days when Goths, Vandals and Nazis were free to rape, pillage and plunder. So unfair, as Trump said on an earlier occasion, that we have “all sorts of rules and regulations, so the soldiers are afraid to fight.”
    As with everything in Trump’s world, his solution is simple: loot and pilfer. “Take the oil,” said Trump. He was referring to Iraq, post-invasion. And how would he do this? There would be an open-ended occupation, as a sovereign nation’s oil was stolen from it. Of course, “you’d leave a certain group behind,” he said, to protect the petro thieves.

    A certain group. Let’s be clear what he’s talking about: Under Trump’s plan, American men and women would die for oil, victims of endless rounds of lethal sabotage and terror strikes. That’s your certain group. He thinks we could get in, get the oil, and get out. Just like the cakewalk of occupying Iraq. And if such a seizure violates international law, what’s the rest of the world going to do about it? “Anything is legal” in war, as the deranged Trump surrogate Rudy Giuliani explained.

    For this kind of plunder, there is in fact a precedent for Trump’s plan: Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait. The United States fought the first gulf war because the Iraqi dictator tried to seize Kuwait’s oil. We were the good guys, fighting an invading military force that was trying to steal a small country’s most precious natural resource.

    I realize with Trump that any discussion of actual “issues” is not for our political press. Can’t we just talk about that awesome Dr. Oz exam? But even one of Trump’s top military supporters, Maj. Gen. Sidney Shachnow, retired, thought the candidate’s conquer-and-steal plan was insane. “It’s a bad precedent,” he told NBC News. “That oil belongs to somebody else.” Sorry, soldier: You’re going to have to follow Trump’s orders.

    Of course, the Mideast would be aflame with violent anti-Americanism if Trump’s troops sat on the oil wells in the desert. Iran, seeing a fellow Shiite-majority nation robbed of its lifeblood, would strike, and jump again into a fast-paced development of a nuclear bomb.

    But, by then, Trump would already be at war with Iran, as he suggested in another of his overlooked recent statements. He said if the Iranians made inappropriate “gestures” at “our beautiful boats” he would shoot them. He would start a war, in other words, if they flipped off our sailors.
    Let’s imagine the Trump Doctrine after World War II. Instead of building model democracies, vigorous trade partners and allies in global sanity out of Germany and Japan, American troops would have looted those countries of all their worth and left them ripe for a fresh dictator. It was one of the highlights of my grandfather’s life, as a member of the Judge Advocate General’s Corps, to help rebuild Germany after it was left in ruins.

    Today, my grandfather would be forced by Trump to violate the codes of international behavior that the United States has long tried to uphold. Trump would put us on the side of tyrants and monarchs, the people our founders tried to disentangle us from.

    Trump would become a war criminal, a role he seems to relish — typical for a man who has never served a day in the military. Take it from someone who has served, and defeated another nation, Colin Powell. Trump, he said in emails leaked this week, is “a national disgrace and an international pariah.”

    But Trump would have an ally in kleptocracy with his favorite world leader, the former K.G.B. operative Vladimir Putin. Trump is Russia’s useful idiot, dismissing its international aggressions and human rights violations. Putin can do no wrong because, “if he says great things about me,” as Trump said, “I’m going to say great things about him.” Trump then went on a Russian propaganda television network to prove his point.

    Some may call this flirting with treason, the enabling of an American adversary — something that Trump has done earlier with his suggestion that Russia try to destabilize the American election. To that, he’s openly advocating war crimes. Can he get away with it? He already has."

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful

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PostSubject: Re: Pillage the oil?    Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:04 am

Almost every quotation was taken out of context. But even if it wasn't, monarchs and tyrants have been making monetary contributions to our presidential candidates, especially in the case of Clinton, for some time. I don't see why Trump is being put on the stand for that.

The oil is the source of ISIS' wealth. The Islamic State isn't a sovereign nation. Take their wealth, then they can't fund their projects. This is the only case he's mentioned about pillaging someone. This is a special case because the oil is the only thing holding ISIS together. And he didn't even intend that we take it and then bring it back over here for ourselves, but that we secure it and starve the Islamic State. And if any forces are found conspiring with the Islamic State over oil profits, since those profits are allowing IS to fund its military expansions, then fuck both of them. Either buying oil from ISIS or supplying them with it should be considered an aggression. Or don't take their source of income away from them and blow a couple hundred more billion taxpayer dollars and not accomplish anything in the end anyway.

Shooting Iranians for flipping us off is obviously an exaggeration.

As far as Trump being an "international pariah," well he just successfully engaged the Mexican president, the Russians and Japs seem to like him, Britain likes him. He's a pariah for a bunch of worthless fuckin' European quasi-states bent under the foot of Merkel.


As far as Russia destabilizing shit, it's rather the content of what was revealed that is destabilizing things. Russia is the only other power on earth with the nuclear capacity of annihilating the human species, and it is the one nation we have decided for some reason that we want to be a dick to.

 

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Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

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or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


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PostSubject: Re: Pillage the oil?    Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:09 pm

This was after the Iraq invasion and before ISIS. Trump was talking about the US taking the oil fields from the Iraqi people, not from ISIS.

Granted that when the Iraqis couldn't defend their oil fields ISIS was able to take them, and oil wealth is a primary part of their revenue. But this is two separate issues here, it doesn't make sense to conflate them: the fact that the Iraqi army and state could not keep hold of their own resources in the event of regional terrorist groups coming along and taking them, after the fact of our invasion of Iraq, doesn't somehow retroactively justify the idea that we should have just stolen those national resources from the Iraqi people to begin with.

From PolitiFact:


    "campaign did not respond to a request to elaborate on the details of his idea.

    When we floated Trump’s idea with a half-dozen foreign policy experts, we encountered wider and deeper revulsion than just about any topic we’ve ever asked about.

    "I wish I could tell you all the ways it would be illegal and not kosher," said Steven R. Ratner, a University of Michigan law professor.

    Trump’s idea is "so out of step with any plausible interpretation of U.S. history or international law that they should be dismissed out of hand by anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of world affairs," said Lance Janda, a military historian at Cameron University.

    "Insofar as Mr. Trump's proposals are coherent enough to be subject to analysis and judgment, they appear to be practically impossible, legally prohibited, and politically imbecilic," said Barnett Rubin, associate director of New York University’s Center on International Cooperation.So, that’s a start. But how about some details?

    Would it be legal?

    No, it would not be legal."What Trump seems to be advocating here would be a fundamental violation of international law embodied in numerous international agreements and in recognized principles of customary international law," said Anthony Clark Arend, a Georgetown University professor of government and foreign service.

    Specifically, Arend cited the Annex to the Hague Convention of 1907 on the Laws and Customs of War, which says that "private property ... must be respected (and) cannot be confiscated." It also says that "pillage is formally forbidden.

    "In addition, Arend said, the 1949 Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War provides that "any destruction by the Occupying Power of real or personal property belonging individually or collectively to private persons, or to the State, or to other public authorities, or to social or cooperative organizations, is prohibited, except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations."

    Richard D. Rosen, the director of Texas Tech University’s Center for Military Law & Policy, added that Trump’s idea "appears to constitute aggression of the type condemned by the United Nations by resolution in 1974." The resolution states that "any military occupation, however temporary, resulting from such invasion or attack, or any annexation by the use of force of the territory of another State or part thereof" qualifies as an "act of aggression."

    Arend said the only way he could envision an idea like Trump’s being acceptable under international law would stem from sanctions imposed by the U.N. Security Council. But that would be moot in this case since the 2003 Iraq War was not undertaken with the approval of the Security Council.Would it be desirable?

    Defying international law carries significant risks, not the least of which is threatening the century-old system of treaties and conventions that the United States, in other circumstances, needs to rely on as it deals with other nations.

    "This is the sort of thing colonial empires, and the U.S., did in the 19th and early 20th centuries, and it’s since been denounced as imperialism," Janda said. "Are we the good guys or not? Because if we are, and if we want to convince the world we are, then we can’t go around invading countries and stealing their oil. The long-term damage to our reputation would be irrevocable."

    Doing a reversal on this point would be seen around the world as hypocrisy, said Daveed Gartenstein-Ross, a terrorism analyst at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies.

    "If ‘to the victors go the spoils’ was legal doctrine, then we would have believed that Saddam should have been able to keep Kuwait City after he invaded," he said. "But we viewed that -- quite rightly -- as an act of aggression under the U.N. Charter."

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful

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Last edited by Capable on Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Pillage the oil?    Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:14 pm

And yes, once the oil fields are taken away from Iraq by ISIS, we can intervene to take those oil fields back from ISIS, but only so that we can return those resources to their rightful owners and not so we can just steal them for ourselves.

Can you imagine how laughably stupid it would be, to walk in and steal another country's oil for ourselves and then turn around and say, "hey well we don't want it to fall into terrorist hands, so we will just keep it from now on." Yeah, that's a massive false conflation of values, something I notice Trump does a lot... there is a clear distinction between protecting someone else's resources so that ISIS doesn't get them, and stealing those resources for our own use. Trump seems mentally incapable of recognizing that distinction.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful

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