'Mortal as I am, I know that I am born for a day. But when I follow at my pleasure the serried multitude of the stars in their circular course, my feet no longer touch the earth.'
 
HomeCalendarFAQSearchMemberlistRegisterLog in

Share | 
 

 The Nietzschean Cauldron

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1 ... 13 ... 22, 23, 24
AuthorMessage
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:42 pm

In my mind i visualize the concept of the "will to power" of an atom by its attributes,its movement but i can not really generate the right sentence for you sorry, i use the concept of the entropy, the rise of complexity, the ultimate consequences of the movement of an atom to his next stage in a complete picture.

The word "will" is a big problem at this scale, you have to use your imagination and visualization not just the word and its human definition.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:18 am

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
And I can speak to only what is observable by me via my senses and thoughts.

Same for me, we are taught to see shadows, to see the light, your eyes need a lot of time to adapt(Plato)

In Taoism we are told that we must do a lot of unlearning before we will ever be able to become aware of the truth of universal reality. The example of the cup that is already full is used as an example - if the cup is already full nothing new can be added.

Quote :
I still don't comprehend your understanding of what is the "will to power".
It took me several month before just having a clue.......it is deeply related to selfishness at the human scale.

I would rather replace the word "selfishness" with the word/concept "survival". This sometimes required being unselfish.

Quote :
I must have will, be it free or only partially free, in order to empower my will.

Everything has a will, and in all things that exist, the will is directed to something, like a compass always pointing in the same direction, this direction is "power", but depending on what are the attributes of the "entity", the type of power and the quantities that it seek are variable.

The will to survive, not to power. Power is a means to survival.

If the will is "free" from seeking power, it mean that the "entity" is broken/stopped/dead and will be completely annihilated by the lack of power in a reality that select entities according to their strength, capacities to accumulate power and resistance to opposite forces.

Nice thoughts. The first part speaks to nihilism - those free from seeking power. This includes those who suggest that all life is destined by "other" forces.

The ending phrase speaks to a different concept. I know what you said is accepted by many, likely the majority. But as a different perspective, I offer: capacity to accumulate power and use opposite forces to our advantage.

Quote :
Not being controlled by others is only part of it

You can be controlled by many things without knowing it and still think you are absolutely "free", this is a matter of perspective.
You think to much about "others", "enemies" what about the laws of nature, do you feel "free" from them ? are you a God ?

As I have stated, our free will has limits. And these limiters vary amongst different people. Some have more limiters, others have fewer. And I really do understand that no matter how forcefully I jump I will never attain an escape velocity. Gravity will get me every time.

Nietzsche :
"The desire for "freedom of will" in the superlative, metaphysical sense, such as still holds sway, unfortunately, in the minds of the half-educated, the desire to bear the entire and ultimate responsibility for one's actions oneself, and to absolve God, the world, ancestors, chance, and society therefrom, involves nothing less than to be precisely this causa sui, and, with... daring, to pull oneself up into existence by the hair, out of the swamps of nothingness."


If you are not free from the laws of nature, you are not free at all...it is a mathematical fact!

No, all that means is that your freedom is limited.

PS There are no gods. But there is the nature of the universe. But nature bears no responsibility - it simply is. What we do withing the confines of nature is up to us. That is, up to our will to power (or whatever).




Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:29 am

kami3 wrote:
In my mind i visualize the concept of the "will to power" of an atom by its attributes,its movement but i can not really generate the right sentence for you sorry,  i use the concept of the entropy, the rise of complexity, the ultimate consequences of the movement of an atom to his next stage in a complete picture.

The word "will" is a big problem at this scale, you have to use your imagination and visualization not just the word and its human definition.

I have shitty imagination. I did poorly with calculus because I could not imagine an imaginary number.

Reductionism is a fair way to look at this concept of "will to power", I suppose. My understand of the "small" is limited and I don't yet accept "quantum" stuff yet as for me it is still not properly defined.

I doubt the hydrogen atom has a "will" to fuse with other hydrogen atoms to create helium. It is a process (initially in the universe) caused by gravity. But its fusing did create helium and then the other elements of the manifest universe.

At my level of reality, my fusing with other elements of the universe allows for the accumulation of power. I may have had the "will" to accumulate these powers or the accumulation may have occurred naturally.

So was my "will" really necessary? Could it have happened naturally?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:00 am

Quote :
The will to survive, not to power. Power is a means to survival.

What about the wish of death ? Is this a will of unpower ?


Last edited by kami3 on Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:35 pm

kami3 wrote:

What about the wish of death ? Is this a will of unpower ?

Hey, I'm not a psychologist. It's strange how the brain can over-ride the instincts we are born with.

But yes, a death wish is an extreme form of nihilism. It requires a lot of really bad fortune, IMO, for someone to attain such a state.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:41 pm

Quote :
Hey, I'm not a psychologist.

Philosophy is a higher form of psychology for Nietzsche !

“Dostoevsky,the only psychologist from whom I've anything to learn.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

google : 2015 Personality Lecture 12: Existentialism: Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard by Jordan B. Peterson

Quote :
It's strange how the brain can over-ride the instincts we are born with.

It does not over ride anything, in some sad cases, death can be seen as a superior state to reach, it is a will to power !

“The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

"great consolation" = "power"

Whatever you do, you do it for power !

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:47 am

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
Hey, I'm not a psychologist.

Philosophy is a higher form of psychology for Nietzsche !

“Dostoevsky,the only psychologist from whom I've anything to learn.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche

google : 2015 Personality Lecture 12: Existentialism: Dostoevsky, Nietzsche, Kierkegaard by Jordan B. Peterson

Quote :
It's strange how the brain can over-ride the instincts we are born with.

It does not over ride anything, in some sad cases, death can be seen as a superior state to reach, it is a will to power !

“The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche    

"great consolation" = "power"

Whatever you do, you do it for power !


I'm still not able to agree with you, or Nietzsche, regarding power. That is something that never gave me inspiration. Free will, on the other hand, is something that has been with me for many years. I was born with free will.

Taoism, Chuang Tzu, speaks against suicide so it is part of my belief system.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:55 pm

So i had this debate on a discord about Nietzsche, i was beginning to explain how language and reality are one in our mind without all the details that are need to understand this sentence and he said :


"Your mastery of linguistics is not yet that, especially on the lame recovery you want to make from the hypothesis of Sapir Whorf"

So i had no idea what the heck he was talking about and i had to check the guy....what a great surprise, that theory confirm everything i said lol
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:00 pm

Then he said that he didn't believe in the hypothesis of Sapir, this is phenomenal ahah
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:04 pm

kami3 wrote:
So i had this debate on a discord about Nietzsche, i was beginning to explain how language and reality are one in our mind without all the details that are need to understand this sentence and he said :


"Your mastery of linguistics is not yet that, especially on the lame recovery you want to make from the hypothesis of Sapir Whorf"

So i had no idea what the heck he was talking about and i had to check the guy....what a great surprise, that theory confirm everything i said lol

Good that you feel comfortable with your understanding. Keep in mind that I am not trying to sway your understanding.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:05 pm

kami3 wrote:
Then he said that he didn't believe in the hypothesis of Sapir, this is phenomenal ahah

Perhaps the person is just trying to keep the discussion going.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:59 pm

Quote :
Perhaps the person is just trying to keep the discussion going.

Absolutly not, i said : without saying much, i already won the debate, thanks to you, i will make good use of this hypothesis, you liberated an old ghost in my mind, thank you very much !

Then he said, you are mad,i dont believe in sapir theory, i go back watching soccer cheers !

Ego collected

He was in his second year of research in linguistic !!

After reading about Sapir theory, i know why they can not really prove it at 100%, because they need Nietzsche, and the most important "words"(linguistic keys) of mankind "the-will-to-power" !
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Quote :
Keep in mind that I am not trying to sway your understanding.

I never thought that of you, if someone is guilty of trying to sway understanding of people, that would be me Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:31 am

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
Perhaps the person is just trying to keep the discussion going.

Absolutly not, i said : without saying much, i already won the debate, thanks to you, i will make good use of this hypothesis, you liberated an old ghost in my mind, thank you very much !

Then he said, you are mad,i dont believe in sapir theory,  i go back watching soccer cheers !

Ego collected

He was in his second year of research in linguistic !!

After reading about Sapir theory, i know why they can not really prove it at 100%, because they need Nietzsche, and the most important "words"(linguistic keys) of mankind "the-will-to-power" !

Sounds like it was a personal challenge that he lost and decided to take his ball and go home. Some people can't handle losing very well.

BTW, I am ignorant of that theory so I can't discuss it.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:38 am

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
Keep in mind that I am not trying to sway your understanding.

I never thought that of you, if someone is guilty of trying to sway understanding of people, that would be me Very Happy

Hehehe.

I actually enjoy these types of discussions as they allow me to view a concept from a different perspective; one that might alter my understanding.

I do love Nietzsche as he was exactly what I need in my life when I first started reading his work. That was in the mid 1980s.

However, I identify myself as a Philosophical Daoist far more often than I identify myself as a Nietzschean. And Chuang Tzu of Daoism negates the concept of "will to power".

Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:42 pm

Quote :
Some people can't handle losing very well.


I don't like to be wrong to...that's why i seek to know if i'm wrong LOL

Quote :
BTW, I am ignorant of that theory so I can't discuss it.

"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects its speakers' world view or cognition. Popularly known as the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, or Whorfianism, the principle is often defined to include two versions. The strong version says that language determines thought, and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories, whereas the weak version says that linguistic categories and usage only influence thought and decisions. "

Very Happy





Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:05 pm

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
Some people can't handle losing very well.


I don't like to be wrong to...that's why i seek to know if i'm wrong LOL

I hear you. At my age it doesn't really matter anymore. At the Daoist forum I have in my signature box "I reserve the right to be wrong."

Quote :
BTW, I am ignorant of that theory so I can't discuss it.

"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The principle of linguistic relativity holds that the structure of a language affects its speakers' world view or cognition. Popularly known as the Sapir–Whorf hypothesis, or Whorfianism, the principle is often defined to include two versions. The strong version says that language determines thought, and that linguistic categories limit and determine cognitive categories, whereas the weak version says that linguistic categories and usage only influence thought and decisions. "

Understand. I don't see any problem with either version.

Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:04 pm

Quote :
Understand. I don't see any problem with either version.

Nietzsche is the smartest man of all time.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:15 pm

Do you remember what i said about long distances neurons ?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:34 pm

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:27 am

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
Understand. I don't see any problem with either version.

Nietzsche is the smartest man of all time.

I don't knw about that but it really doesn't matter.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:28 am

kami3 wrote:
Do you remember what i said about long distances neurons ?

No. Sometimes I don't even remember who I am.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:29 am

kami3 wrote:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer

I learned that concept from a different source but agree with the above.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
kami3
bowstring
bowstring


Posts : 43
Join date : 2017-03-27

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:39 am

Quote :
doesn't matter.

It does,  matter of trust, "letting go" technic. Hierarchy of beings is central to reach the truth !

Quote :

No. Sometimes I don't even remember who I am.

Well in short, it's about patterns , if you see every concept as connected, your neurons will interconnect the whole brain, no more conflict between ideas, that's my theory, that's why i found Sapir theory by myself just with Nietzsche, because it's all connected, and that's why Nietzsche was always right on everything, the perfect brain "can be reached", neuroplasticity and neurogenesis work until the end !

Quote :
I learned that concept from a different source but agree with the above.

“Some men are born posthumously.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche, The Anti-Christ

Time will come, mankind will be educated very differently.


"The Legend of the Hummingbird

One day, a long time ago and in a faraway place, or so the legend goes, there was a huge forest fire that was raging the countryside. All the animals were terrified, running around in circles, screaming, crying and helplessly watching the impending disaster.

But there in the middle of the flames, and above the cowering animals, was a tiny hummingbird busy flying from a small pond to the fire, each time fetching a few drops with its beak to throw on the flames. And then again And then again.

After a while, an old grouchy armadillo, annoyed by this ridiculous useless agitation on the part of the hummingbird, cried out: “Tiny bird! Don’t be a fool. It is not with those miniscule drops of water one after the other that you are going to put out the fire and save us all! ”

To which the hummingbird replied, “Could be, but I’m going to do my bit”."

It's all written,here, hope it will be useful the d-day.

Sisyphus thanks for your patience !
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sisyphus
Path
Path


Posts : 1351
Join date : 2016-08-06
Location : Florida

PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:47 pm

kami3 wrote:
Quote :
doesn't matter.

It does,  matter of trust, "letting go" technic. Hierarchy of beings is central to reach the truth !

It matters only if you can do something about it, either directly or indirectly. If you can do nothing about it you should not worry yourself about it.

Quote :

No. Sometimes I don't even remember who I am.

Well in short, it's about patterns , if you see every concept as connected, your neurons will interconnect the whole brain, no more conflict between ideas, that's my theory, that's why i found Sapir theory by myself just with Nietzsche, because it's all connected, and that's why Nietzsche was always right on everything, the perfect brain "can be reached", neuroplasticity and neurogenesis work until the end !

I have no conflicts in my life. However, when I speak with other people it sometimes appears there is conflict within the concepts of my belief system. But then, it may be just the way I express my beliefs in words. Some things just cannot be shared with words.

Quote :
I learned that concept from a different source but agree with the above.

“Some men are born posthumously.”

― Friedrich Nietzsche, The Anti-Christ

Time will come, mankind will be educated very differently.

I will be dead before that happens. But then, I would agree that a better way needs be found.

"The Legend of the Hummingbird

One day, a long time ago and in a faraway place, or so the legend goes, there was a huge forest fire that was raging the countryside. All the animals were terrified, running around in circles, screaming, crying and helplessly watching the impending disaster.

But there in the middle of the flames, and above the cowering animals, was a tiny hummingbird busy flying from a small pond to the fire, each time fetching a few drops with its beak to throw on the flames. And then again And then again.

After a while, an old grouchy armadillo, annoyed by this ridiculous useless agitation on the part of the hummingbird, cried out: “Tiny bird! Don’t be a fool. It is not with those miniscule drops of water one after the other that you are going to put out the fire and save us all! ”

To which the hummingbird replied, “Could be, but I’m going to do my bit”."

Nice story. I pretty much follow that philosophy in my real life.

It's all written,here, hope it will be useful the d-day.

Sisyphus thanks for your patience !

Thank you. Patience is one of my stronger virtues. I do have a tipping point though. It's not a nice experience when someone takes me there.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    

Back to top Go down
 
The Nietzschean Cauldron
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 24 of 24Go to page : Previous  1 ... 13 ... 22, 23, 24

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Before The Light :: Tree :: Interpretation :: Nietzsche Campfire-
Jump to: