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 The Nietzschean Cauldron

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Sisyphus
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:56 am

Myki2 wrote:
Quote :
Great. However, I reserve the right to challenge anything you say and require support, if necessary, for anything you present as a "truth".

That's the main goal of my presence here, why would i come here to challenge people otherwise ? anyway im ready to loose a debate, ill take it like a champ and what doesnt kill me make me stronger !

I do not have a goal of winning or losing.  The truth of reality is what I speak mostly to.  Most philosophers are idealists.  I can agree with their ideals but then I have to add that my observations of reality don't support the ideals.

Quote :
This is, in my opinion, a valid thought. But remember, modification of the human body was not a concern of Nietzsche although it is for many transhumanists. We don't want to become walking and talking computers. That would be worse that what Nietzsche was talking against.

For the fun of it, lets say for example that i have the power to remove all your nietzschean knwoledges, we will agree that your choices,opinions and thinking system will change instantly and will be very different in many ways ??

Well, you would have to remove Chuang Tzu as well else there would be little effect on my thinking.  I suppose many of my memories would have to be deleted as well.

So you saying right now that putting some nanotechnological device in your brain that can completly change your intelligence and improve your experience of life in a way that you can't imagine right now because you dont have those devices as we speak, is something that can be worst than what would Nietzsche think ?

Yes, it would be far worse than what Nietzsche has suggested.  And it is true, I am strictly opposed to this.  It would be worse than any kind of brainwashing one could imagine.  It would remove the capacity of free will.

You dont know that, because it would be like taking a drug but with the choice to stop it or let it go, how could you know if you would let it go,beside your vision of what you think of what power is at the moment the divices are in you will affect you, you will have residuel effect even if you remove them, you will remember... (im not sure if exposed my tought correctly, any objections are very welcome)

How do you know what I know and don't know?  Bad phrase there, that fist one.  But you are right in that I wouldn't know it if I wasn't aware that it happened.  I followed your thought.  No problem.  This is one of the reasons I pride my freedom so much.  I want to be the one living my life, not some jackass who dreams of world control.

And Nietzsche think that experimenting is a necessecity or one of our most powerfull instinct.

But what he spoke to is different from what you just spoke of.  What Nietzsche said is that we must search ourself, search our mind, and come to realize that as long as we maintain the will to power (growing ourself) we may become an over-man.

Quote :
But no pseudoscience, I hope.

I can't believe you said that...
I studied science from 7 years old just after watching Jurrasic park lol
I posted the best neuroscientifical article of this past years, that can help you to undertsand Nietzsche further and in wich way tactical thinking can transform your brain physically, and let me tell you this, i followed every discovery in every field since i saw that movie, you have no idea how much scientifical knowledge i accumulated, its something im the most proud of and in the end it helped me to understand the #1 philosopher !

Well, I don't know you well enough yet to have known that.  You have satisfied me to believing that you will remain with information, facts, that are provable.  There are no supernatural powers.  If its (whatever) not natural it can't happen.  Now, there are rare events but they must be discussed individually.

and just for the fun of it ,pls  search on google "dinosaur legs" and click on the first scientifical article.
Do you know the story of why Michael Crinton wrote Jurrassic Park ?

Yes, I am pretty aware of that.  They have grown teeth in a chicken's mouth.  They have extended the length of its tail.  It may be possible one day to retro-evolve a chicken, or some other bird into what would be considered a dinosaur.  I don't see any usefulness in doing it though.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:15 pm

Quote :
I do not have a goal of winning or losing. my observations of reality don't support the ideals.

I was talking about my goal...
Your observations are subjectiv, if they don't support ideals then your choices will be based on this negativ point of view of nature, you are still precious to an external watcher that will find surely good "data" on how you doin in your life.


Quote :
Yes, it would be far worse than what Nietzsche has suggested.

Nietzsche thinking system is timeless, he considered that futur people that will read him, will be more advanced, so he never said anything about what kind of choices we should make, he just said, the choice will be very "selfish" !

Quote :
And it is true, I am strictly opposed to this.  It would be worse than any kind of brainwashing one could imagine.

It's all " The Inquisition" all over again, you can be opposed to everything you want, it's like drugs, some people will take some, other not, life is going on, what you gonna do about it ? Beside having 500 IQ from my point view doesnt look like brainwashing at all but its only my opinion, let's not debate that.


Quote :
It would remove the capacity of free will.

Wait you mean you didnt understood that free will was an illusion ? im sorry but If i've said it once i’ve said it a thousand times, i only need one sentence to know if somebody understood Nietzsche...

Let's say , you see 4.2 billions of dollars , you have the choice to take it or to burn it to prove that free will exist what you gonna do ?
i Swear on god, if you were part of my family, i will hunt you if you prove that free will exist xD you better run for you life quickly xD im already comming after you ahaha

Anyway.. there is no such a thing for Nietzsche, and for science, everything we do is extremely well regulated by rewards and punitions, every choice is a selfish one, everytime, we make a choice, it is the most powerfull from our point of view in a given time.

Quote :
How do you know what I know and don't know?

I was talking about what you will know in the futur, like new informations that could change radicaly your thinkin system

Quote :
I pride my freedom so much.  I want to be the one living my life

We all have our goals what can i say ?

Quote :
Quote :
And Nietzsche think that experimenting is a necessecity or one of our most powerfull instinct.

But what he spoke to is different from what you just spoke of.  What Nietzsche said is that we must search ourself, search our mind, and come to realize that as long as we maintain the will to power (growing ourself) we may become an over-man.

Absolutly not, experimenting means experimenting, the curiosity is too strong, beside the philosophical aspect, there is absolutly no difference betwen your external computer and a molecular one in your head that interact according to your precise will.

Quote :
you have satisfied me to believing that you will remain with information, facts, that are provable

Well you are the only one lol

Quote :
I don't see any usefulness in doing it though.

With the most powerfull tool in biotech : Crispr; what's important is not making a big fat chicken with teeth but controlling the ageing genes, nobody want's dinosaurs jeezz.....
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:56 pm

those nanotech devices will transform you in god, you say no now but you will see others living unimaginable euphoria with 1000 IQ ,you will feel alone i assure you xD
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:59 pm

I feel bad for anyone who needs to measure their life in quantity of years. Or who thinks that IQ is something to be boosted with "nanotech". I don't think you have any idea what intelligence really is, much less consciousness or self.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus

"It is a tedious thing to be always beginning life; they live badly who always begin to live." --Seneca

"I kick ass, all these other humans suck balls." --Inmendham
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:10 pm

Quote :
I feel bad for anyone who needs to measure their life in quantity of years. Or who thinks that IQ is something to be boosted with "nanotech". I don't think you have any idea what intelligence really is, much less consciousness or self.

i feel bad for you feeling bad for whatever you say


Please explain me what intelligence is
Please explain me what is consciousness or self

help me to reach more knowledges please




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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:28 pm

Intelligence is the result of work, learning, experience, effort over time and not something that is simply given. Improving the biological base of thought (indeed there is a genetic component to what we call intelligence) is meaningless if one doesn't use it.

Consciousness is the effect of the sum total of all the contents that comprise that consciousness. There is no "consciousness itself", consciousness is always to be conscious of something; and the ground and framework from which this "consciousness of" comes and of which it is made is simply other contents of that same consciousness-- other "perspectives", ideas, basically whatever you have at some previous moment comprehended (read: comprehensive) and surpassed. As I think Parodites said once, we know only that which we have overcome. This "overcoming" is the contents of the same consciousness which posits itself in delimiting juxtaposition to whatever it is "conscious of" in any given moment.

The mystery of consciousness is that it is itself, it comes into being as an emergent property of those things which it "comprehends", renders to the depths of itself, penetrates and unlocks the inner essence and meaning of. And then all that is "forgotten" as it becomes yet another base and substance upon which the next moment of consciousness is posited.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus

"It is a tedious thing to be always beginning life; they live badly who always begin to live." --Seneca

"I kick ass, all these other humans suck balls." --Inmendham
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:54 pm

Quote :
Intelligence is the result of work, learning, experience, effort over time and not something that is simply given.

This right there guys, this is masterpiece, in my whole life i never eard of a such spectacularrrr definition of what intelligence is.
You made my day xD im an Ubermensh now, thank you Capable, now i will conquer the universe.

Quote :
Consciousness is the effect of the sum total of all the contents that comprise that consciousness. There is no "consciousness itself", consciousness is always to be conscious of something; and the ground and framework from which this "consciousness of" comes and of which it is made is simply other contents of that same consciousness-- other "perspectives", ideas, basically whatever you have at some previous moment comprehended (read: comprehensive) and surpassed. As I think Parodites said once, we know only that which we have overcome. This "overcoming" is the contents of the same consciousness which posits itself in delimiting juxtaposition to whatever it is "conscious of" in any given moment.

Wait did you just said " Guys, im a genius, i know what consciousness is ??"
Well the entire world is happy now, we know what consciousness is, thanks to Capable
So in wich way this very precise knowledge about consciousness help you in your daily life, pls give a good, precise and helpfull example thank you.

im sorry i used  a little bit of kraken but he said i have no idea about nothing so its fair Sad


Last edited by Myki2 on Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:10 pm; edited 4 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:18 pm

The "moral" idea of philosophy is that every experience enriches the philosopher, serves as a means and as a base (a "substance") on which he climbs higher through and as himself; truth is only an effect of this. We simply become more truthful ourselves, therefore we become capable of understanding, seeing and responding to new truths as these are inevitably incorporated into and as the very person, subjectivity, consciousness, self, and life, which "understood" them. Not to mince any words, I'm saying the philosophers so far and the tradition of philosophy has so far had it backwards. Quite literally backwards; but even their banality of method of "making truths the objects as such" still paradoxically leads to some truths being revealed, although only through and as an effect of their efforts and not precisely "because of it".

Philosophy is the overcoming of pathology, of insanity of the tyranny of one perspective, idea, experience or point of view. We all have this "insanity" and there's nothing wrong with it in so far as we are it, necessarily, but what really makes us human lies beyond the scope of that "the self as its own tyranny", lies beyond it as a kind of always unrecoverable excess. Lucky for us we are not robots or mere organic machines, we are that self-valuing which is at all times self-irreducible and self-inexhaustible. Every time we humans push into ourselves or our experiences (which are, in a large and significant way, the same thing) we create and "push away" more of ourselves; if we didn't do that then we couldn't even be "alive".

The greatest substance of consciousness resides outside of consciousness, in those "experiences" we have and also in "ourselves" as buried-receded content-orders-- it resides outside as pure meaning, which paradoxically only becomes "real" when some part of it is actualized in, as and for a specific living human being. Meaning does not exist properly without that entity for which it is meaningful, just as this entity (in this instance, human beings) doesn't exist properly without that which is for that entity meaningful.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

"Between this sky and the faces turned toward it there is nothing on which to hang a mythology, a literature, an ethic, or a religion—only stones, flesh, stars, and those truths the hand can touch." --Camus

"It is a tedious thing to be always beginning life; they live badly who always begin to live." --Seneca

"I kick ass, all these other humans suck balls." --Inmendham
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:47 pm



Quote :
The "moral" idea of philosophy is that every experience enriches the philosopher, serves as a means and as a base (a "substance") on which he climbs higher through and as himself; truth is only an effect of this. We simply become more truthful ourselves, therefore we become capable of understanding, seeing and responding to new truths as these are inevitably incorporated into and as the very person, subjectivity, consciousness, self, and life, which "understood" them. Not to mince any words, I'm saying the philosophers so far and the tradition of philosophy has so far had it backwards. Quite literally backwards; but even their banality of method of "making truths the objects as such" still paradoxically leads to some truths being revealed, although only through and as an effect of their efforts and not precisely "because of it".

Philosophy is the overcoming of pathology, of insanity of the tyranny of one perspective, idea, experience or point of view. We all have this "insanity" and there's nothing wrong with it in so far as we are it, necessarily, but what really makes us human lies beyond the scope of that "the self as its own tyranny", lies beyond it as a kind of always unrecoverable excess. Lucky for us we are not robots or mere organic machines, we are that self-valuing which is at all times self-irreducible and self-inexhaustible. Every time we humans push into ourselves or our experiences (which are, in a large and significant way, the same thing) we create and "push away" more of ourselves; if we didn't do that then we couldn't even be "alive".

The greatest substance of consciousness resides outside of consciousness, in those "experiences" we have and also in "ourselves" as buried-receded content-orders-- it resides outside as pure meaning, which paradoxically only becomes "real" when some part of it is actualized in, as and for a specific living human being. Meaning does not exist properly without that entity for which it is meaningful, just as this entity (in this instance, human beings) doesn't exist properly without that which is for that entity meaningful.

It's your discovery on what is consciousness ? good luck with that



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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:26 pm

"Myki2" said:
I was talking about my goal...
Your observations are subjectiv, if they don't support ideals then your choices will be based on this negativ point of view of nature, you are still precious to an external watcher that will find surely good "data" on how you doin in your life.

No, my observations are objective.  Any judgements I make upon what I observe would be subjective.

Nietzsche thinking system is timeless, he considered that futur people that will read him, will be more advanced, so he never said anything about what kind of choices we should make, he just said, the choice will be very "selfish" !

Nearly everything we do is selfish.  But not all.  There are times when the "other" is more important than self.

It's all " The Inquisition" all over again, you can be opposed to everything you want, it's like drugs, some people will take some, other not, life is going on, what you gonna do about it ? Beside having 500 IQ from my point view doesnt look like brainwashing at all but its only my opinion, let's not debate that.

Okay.

Wait you mean you didnt understood that free will was an illusion ? im sorry but If i've said it once i’ve said it a thousand times, i only need one sentence to know if somebody understood Nietzsche...

Free will is exactly the will to power.  

Let's say , you see 4.2 billions of dollars , you have the choice to take it or to burn it to prove that free will exist what you gonna do ?
i Swear on god, if you were part of my family, i will hunt you if you prove that free will exist xD you better run for you life quickly xD im already comming after you ahaha

Why would you care?  It wasn't ever yours.  If I kept it and didn't give any to you, you would likely feel the same.  You want to control my life?  No, that won't work here.

Anyway.. there is no such a thing for Nietzsche, and for science, everything we do is extremely well regulated by rewards and punitions, every choice is a selfish one, everytime, we make a choice, it is the most powerfull from our point of view in a given time.

The initiation of rewards and punishments was the beginning of the downfall of man. And free will allows me to not make a choice - I can just let the situation float by - to take its own course.

I was talking about what you will know in the futur, like new informations that could change radicaly your thinkin system

It could but the probability is extremely low.

Absolutly not, experimenting means experimenting, the curiosity is too strong, beside the philosophical aspect, there is absolutly no difference betwen your external computer and a molecular one in your head that interact according to your precise will.

My precise will?  You said I have no free will.  Make up your mind.  My computer is not alive; I am.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:28 pm

Myki2 wrote:
those nanotech devices will transform you in god, you say no now but you will see others living unimaginable euphoria with 1000 IQ ,you will feel alone i assure you xD

No. You are assuming I give a shit. I don't.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:33 pm

Capable wrote:
The "moral" idea of philosophy is that every experience enriches the philosopher, ...

True this. If we haven't lived life in the objective we have no base from which to build our standards of morality.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:05 pm

Quote :
No, my observations are objective.  Any judgements I make upon what I observe would be subjective.

by observations i mean your judgments, sorry language barrier

Quote :
here are times when the "other" is more important than self.

Yes the other is "more important" so you still act by what you judge "important" to "you", still selfish

Quote :
Free will is exactly the will to power.  

wiki source

Free will as a psychological error[edit]
Nietzsche's critique of free will has essentially two aspects: one is philosophical (fatalistic), and the other is psychological.[38] Fatalism lets Nietzsche theoretically prove the error of moral doctrines, which – most generally speaking – would require that a sinner changed his destiny (for instance by changing the laws of nature, influencing chances which lie completely beyond the extent of his influence), which is by definition impossible. But such theory would not be convincing enough if at the same time the impression of control was not removed, as well as the ever renewed attempts at associating it with the "freedom of will" and building a philosophy out of that. Thus a psychological critique is needed.

If one agrees that the "freedom of will" denotes the power of will which rules but is not itself ruled, then it would at bottom be enough to prove that it is not will what governs human behaviour in order to abolish the very term, to prove that "it is not there". And Nietzsche went on to this.[39] For Nietzsche the term "will" is psychologically strictly connected with the term "aim" (he often combines the two), maybe even they are identical to him.[40] Aim could then be interpreted, according to a common definition, as planning and intellectual foreseeing[41] (of especially effects); according to Nietzsche first and foremost the anticipation of acts which in fact do not need to follow by its virtue from aiming (which is here foreseeing).

In Twilight of the Idols Nietzsche demonstrates the error of false causality just before the error of free will:

Of these "inward facts" that seem to demonstrate causality, the primary and most persuasive one is that of the will as cause. The idea of consciousness ("spirit") or, later, that of the ego [I] (the "subject") as a cause are only afterbirths: first the causality of the will was firmly accepted as proved, as a fact, and these other concepts followed from it. But we have reservations about these concepts. Today we no longer believe any of this is true. (...) The so-called motives: another error. Merely a surface phenomenon of consciousness, something shadowing[42] the deed that is more likely to hide the causes of our actions than to reveal them. (...)[43]

and then, in the section directly regarding free will, he observes:

Men were considered "free" only so that they might be considered guilty – could be judged and punished: consequently, every act had to be considered as willed, and the origin of every act had to be considered as lying within the consciousness (and thus the most fundamental psychological deception was made the principle of psychology itself).[44]

Similarly in The Antichrist: "the will no longer «acts,» or «moves»...", "the term no longer denotes any power".[45] This non-deriving of acts straight way out of aims, which are just foreseeing (the accompanying self-consciousness of that what is to come), but searching for their sources elsewhere (for example in reflexes, habits, urges) is to Nietzsche even one of major differences between medieval (Thomist) and modern psychology.[40]

Nietzsche's words turned out to be prophetic,[38] for modern neuroscience, especially the famous Libet's[46][47] (or Kornhuber's[48]) experiment and other of this type, has not once confirmed that the decision for an act is made beyond the (self)consciousness (in popular words, the will), which comes up to even half a second later.

Quote :
Why would you care?  It wasn't ever yours.  If I kept it and didn't give any to you, you would likely feel the same.  You want to control my life?  No, that won't work here.

that was a joke sorry im terrrible at it but you didnt get the point where is no free will anyway agree to disagree, free will is a religious thing anyway

Quote :
The initiation of rewards and punishments was the beginning of the downfall of man. And free will allows me to not make a choice - I can just let the situation float by - to take its own course.

what the heck are you talking about ? the brain give you pleasure or pain thats it, your "free will" is based on chemicals in your brains that are released according to your vision of power.

Quote :
It could but the probability is extremely low.

Well if you say so ! you seem very confident that smarter people could not influence you in any way, that's a weird tought

Quote :
My precise will?  You said I have no free will.  Make up your mind.  My computer is not alive; I am

yes you have no free will, you are chained to what you think is powerfull, to what give you dopamine and serotonine.

So you are the son of a Nazi in 1933, the father teach hate to his son, then the son become a nazi himself and a proud nazi
How much free will you see in this and then describe me what is free will exactly

Quote :
No. You are assuming I give a shit. I don't.

A philosopher that dont give a shit about something that will change the very nature of human kind forever what a great example for the seekers of the truth
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:30 pm

Quote :
by observations i mean your judgments, sorry language barrier

i mean you observ, you judge, you act
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sat Oct 15, 2016 8:33 pm

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i mean you observ, you judge, you act

make me realise how much your argument was not important, i was like ok you think that, hmm ok lol
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 4:55 am

I'm going to speak to this one concept at a time because this is complicated. Yes, complicated for me as well.

Myki2 wrote:
Quote :
i mean you observ, you judge, you act

make me realise how much your argument was not important, i was like ok you think that, hmm ok lol

You noted three processes above: observation, judgement, and action.

They are separate processes even though one process most often, but not always, leads to another.

I observe. That is all. I watch the butterfly fly. I make no judgements as to how well it flies or from where it came nor to where it is going.

I judge. That butterfly is flying as if it is drunk.

I act. I chase it out of my yard.

However, why judge? Why take action? Just remain seated and observe the flight of the butterfly.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:00 am

Myki2 wrote:
Quote :
No, my observations are objective.  Any judgements I make upon what I observe would be subjective.

by observations i mean your judgments, sorry language barrier 

Yes, my judgements are subjective.

But my observations are objective. A tree is a tree. Don't walk into it cause you will likely get a bloody nose.

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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:04 am

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :
here are times when the "other" is more important than self.

Yes the other is "more important" so you still act by what you judge "important" to "you", still selfish

This is arguable. I have had the argument before. Till now no one has been able to convince me that all my acts are selfish. There is such a concept of altruistic acts. I hold to this. I live by it when I am allowed to do so.

It's called a selfless act. Mother Teresa is an example I often use.

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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:10 am

[quote="Myki2"]
Quote :
Free will is exactly the will to power.  

In this discussion I will not accept a wiki article nor anything that someone else has said Nietzsche has sad. Direct quotes only please. And even be careful of the translation you use because I have found that Walter Kaufmann is the only reliable translator of Nietzsche. For me, all other translators are suspect.



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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:17 am

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :
Why would you care?  It wasn't ever yours.  If I kept it and didn't give any to you, you would likely feel the same.  You want to control my life?  No, that won't work here.

that was a joke sorry im terrrible at it but you didnt get the point where is no free will anyway agree to disagree, free will is a religious thing anyway

I thought it might be a joke but wanted to respond anyway.

Actually, free will is opposed to religious thought. Religions require their words' acceptance without question. Free will questions.

I am an Atheist therefore I do not talk much about religions.

There is more to be said about free will.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:28 am

Myki2 wrote:

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The initiation of rewards and punishments was the beginning of the downfall of man. And free will allows me to not make a choice - I can just let the situation float by - to take its own course.

what the heck are you talking about ? the brain give you pleasure or pain thats it, your "free will" is based on chemicals in your brains that are released according to your vision of power.

There you go. You have dissected man into many parts and are viewing only one aspect of the whole. We cannot break things apart and still have the complete thing. Once you break something down into its many parts you have lost the essence of the totality.

And it is I, the complete essence of me, who functions in such a manner that causes these chemical processes to take place. They don't happen on their own. Cause and effect rules.

My free will is inspired by a thought. Sure, some thoughts come "out of the blue". Our first act of free will therefore is the decision to entertain this thought or to let it go back to wherever it came from.

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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:35 am

Myki2 wrote:

Well if you say so ! you seem very confident that smarter people could not influence you in any way, that's a weird tought

I think you have taken my words out of context. I respect those who are more wise that I. Note that I did not say more educated - I have known some educated idiots during my life.

But I will question what is presented to me. If it is logical, rational, is supported with factual data, and it is repeatable then I will consider that information seriously. If what is presented does not stand the test then it is discarded.

Yes, I am a very confident person. And I reserve the right to be wrong. But I also reserve the right to change my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:47 am

Myki2 wrote:

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My precise will?  You said I have no free will.  Make up your mind.  My computer is not alive; I am

yes you have no free will, you are chained to what you think is powerfull, to what give you dopamine and serotonine.

So you are the son of a Nazi in 1933, the father teach hate to his son, then the son become a nazi himself and a proud nazi
How much free will you see in this and then describe me what is free will exactly

Ah! A "what if" game. Okay.

You have just said that it is not possible for a person to change. Life is change. No change equals dead.

So, according to you because I was raised a Christian there is no way in hell I could have ever become an Atheist. But I am an Atheist. You need to explain this contradiction.

Without free will (the will to power) Nietzsche's philosophy would be nothing. It would be full of contradictions and would nullify itself.

And get off the damn chemicals. They will fuck up your brain.

so you are saying that a Black person, raised in a ghetto can never become anything but a (N word)? How strange. Or that a person raised in an affluent family with wealth and good morals can never turn bad? Reality contradicts this suggestion.

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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:55 am

Myki2 wrote:

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No. You are assuming I give a shit. I don't.

A philosopher that dont give a shit about something that will change the very nature of human kind forever what a great example for the seekers of the truth

I never suggested I was or am a philosopher. I enjoy discussing philosophy.

I don't give a shit because of my understandings of problems we encounter in life.

My understanding is that there are two categories of problem I will encounter in my life:

1. Problems that I can do something about to eliminate the problem.

2. Problems that I can do nothing to eliminate the problem.

Those problems I can do something about I have already acted on and they no longer exist.

Those problems I can do nothing to eliminate I simply acknowledge as existing, voice my opposition to, and then let go of them. However, if it is a problem that I can avoid or I can take an alternative action to minimalize its effect on me then I will likely take action.

And this requires free will! Without free will we simply accept all the shit that is thrown at us in life.
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PostSubject: Re: The Nietzschean Cauldron    Sun Oct 16, 2016 5:58 am

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In this discussion I will not accept a wiki article nor anything that someone else has said Nietzsche has sad. Direct quotes only please. And even be careful of the translation you use because I have found that Walter Kaufmann is the only reliable translator of Nietzsche. For me, all other translators are suspect.

In my opinion you lost the debate at this point, i didnt learn Nietzsche trough wiki, im sorry but you seems deny everything i said about free will, if it's on wiki, if nobody corrected it's mean, the informations about free will and Nietzsche are all over the internet,  just search on google and read by yourself im not here to write books about free will, you wanna play the card "for me" ok me too then :

"For me" you lost the debate

i showed you the inexistance of free will trough scientifcal point of view, Nietzschean point of view, and my point of view ,you still deny,
i call this a "Genkai"

You want some Nietzsche ?

"The priest knows, as every one knows, that there is no longer any "God," or any "sinner," or any "Saviour" that "free will" and the "moral order of the world" are lies : serious reflection, the profound self conquest of the spirit, allow no man to pretend that he does not know it."

"It is certainly not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable; it is precisely thereby that it attracts the more subtle minds. It seems that the hundred-times-refuted theory of the "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it."

"Free will appears unfettered, deliberate; it is boundlessly free, wandering, the spirit. But fate is a necessity; unless we believe that world history is a dream-error, the unspeakable sorrows of mankind fantasies, and that we ourselves are but the toys of our fantasies. Fate is the boundless force of opposition against free will. Free will without fate is just as unthinkable as spirit without reality, good without evil. Only antithesis creates the quality."

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There is such a concept of altruistic acts

Yep now im sure you didnt understood Nietzsche, you see altruism as power, altruism is a superior state for you therfore you want reach it according to your will to power.

when you said i had valid points wich one you where talking about because im afraid you didnt get any words of everything i wrote if you think "altruism" exist.
Because it's an absolut opposition on everything i said from the first post.

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Yes, my judgements are subjective.

But my observations are objective. A tree is a tree. Don't walk into it cause you will likely get a bloody nose.

I should have never answered to this argument, i wish i could go back....

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Mother Teresa is an example I often use.

please reread my posts where i show i how to use the will to power at the human scale.

we can continue talking no problem but i see a wall that i can't overcome.

Quote :
so you are saying that a Black person, raised in a ghetto can never become anything but a (N word)? How strange. Or that a person raised in an affluent family with wealth and good morals can never turn bad? Reality contradicts this suggestion.

That's exactly what im sayin, if you live in somalia,in the desert, with no food, you can't become a nuclear physicist unless you have good luck !
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