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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Highest political ethics   Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:54 pm

The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?


 

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"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." -Parodites

"Was it necessary for the sense of truth that Nietzsche described as developed by the Judeo-Christian tradition that then manifested itself in the scientific methodology to turn against the symbolic foundation of that structure and demolish it... Jung's answer was that the conflict between science and religion is a consequence of the immature state of both of those domains of thinking... it's just that we aren't good enough at being religious or at being scientific to see how they might be reconciled." -Jordan Peterson
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PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics   Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:40 am

Capable wrote:
The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?


I may not be understanding what you mean here by political ethics and I am not politically inclined but this calls to mind the Nazi regime and the destruction of millions of Jewish lives. The Nazis as a collective and as individuals were self-determined. Where were their ethics when it came to all of those lives even though one can say that they were highly self determined?

On the other hand, the allies joining forces and coming in and defeating the Nazi's were also highly self-determined in destroying that great evil - and yes, it was a great evil.


http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/dft/files/political_ethics-revised_10-11.pdf

Ethics requires political leaders to avoid harming the innocent,
but it may also obligate them to sacrifice innocent lives for the good of the nation. A
President may be morally obligated to order military action even while foreseeing
that civilians will be killed. (The question of immoral means arises even if the war
itself is just: See JUST WAR THEORY).


Interesting reading.

....

Hmmm... I suppose you meant the phrase in a much more broader scope...

Wouldn't a humane sense of consciousness and responsibility toward doing the least amount of harm toward the greater good " pawn self-determination"?


 

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"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics   Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:25 pm

Capable wrote:
The highest political ethics would be one based on the ground-value of self-determination. Self-determination should be the bedrock principle applied to the individual person, and to the nation itself. So in other words, any derivative values or principles should not be allowed to violate the basic principle-value of the self-determination of individuals and nations.

What would be the political character that develops upon such a political ethics?


Ive been pondering this post for a day.

This morning I decide the best term here is the old one: Constitutionalism

Trumps idea of for every new regulation, eliminating two old ones, appears very wise, with respect to Constitutionalism.


The Constitution appears as having been designed to facilitate selfdetermination on individual, as well as state level.

The 9th Amendment appears the logical center piece of the legislation as a guarantee that the document is used for the purpose it was created for - to minimize unself-determination.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics   Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 pm

Yes I agree, and as the ontic entities condense more around themselves in terms of self-determination we can expect to see an increase in... pride. Self-pride and national pride, in the joy that comes with being and having oneself, which is the basic logic of self-valuing.

The US Constitution was the first of its kind in human history. We should never forget this. Napoleon fucked up France's chance to be the US of Europe, basically, when their own constitution failed because of him. Perhaps the US and even the world has the restraint of a single man to thank: George Washington, who the Americans people wanted to make a king, and that would have been the end of it, but he said no.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." -Parodites

"Was it necessary for the sense of truth that Nietzsche described as developed by the Judeo-Christian tradition that then manifested itself in the scientific methodology to turn against the symbolic foundation of that structure and demolish it... Jung's answer was that the conflict between science and religion is a consequence of the immature state of both of those domains of thinking... it's just that we aren't good enough at being religious or at being scientific to see how they might be reconciled." -Jordan Peterson
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PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics   Wed Dec 14, 2016 6:36 pm

Capable wrote:
Yes I agree, and as the ontic entities condense more around themselves in terms of self-determination we can expect to see an increase in... pride. Self-pride and national pride, in the joy that comes with being and having oneself, which is the basic logic of self-valuing.

The US Constitution was the first of its kind in human history. We should never forget this. Napoleon fucked up France's chance to be the US of Europe, basically, when their own constitution failed because of him. Perhaps the US and even the world has the restraint of a single man to thank: George Washington, who the Americans people wanted to make a king, and that would have been the end of it, but he said no.

Wait, thats fascinating. Did that first constitution before Napoleon did with it what he did, suffice in value-logical terms?

Can you locate the text?

Because right now I think that France needs to become the center of Europe, not morally, but by real necessity, as in there is no other possibility.
Germany cant rule. They keep on dreadfully failing. France is the center of Europe in the sense that it is where everyone goes to feel good, its the most popular country and the oldest, and it used to harbor more than half of the European population. It is stunning, noble to the very tendons of the heart, and it has the will to govern from the sort of lofty withdrawn pride that simply knows the poor will come to it in honest wonder.


France need to start building immense bridges close to the German border. They need to show clearly who is able to build and who is not. Germans have never built anything notable at all. Their country has literally no memorable buildings. Berlin is an architectonic wasteland, but so are all their cities. Frankfurt
has foreign architect from the looks of it but it is nothingness anyway.

One street in any given town of France has more culture to it than Germany as a whole.
The beauty of Germany is its savageness.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Highest political ethics   Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:30 pm

It's something I remember reading, that the French tried to follow America's example by drafting their own Constitution, which they did, but ultimately Napoleon basically did what he wanted after he declared himself Emperor. Ours was in 1787, theirs was in 1791 I guess, four years later. I'm no expert on this history, but I am sure there is plenty online to be found... I found this on history-world.org,


    "The Downfall of RobespierreFinally the enemies of the Revolution at home and abroad seemed to be suppressed. Only Great Britain and Austria continued the war. The people were tired of the Terror. When Robespierre showed no signs of stopping the bloodshed, the rest of the Convention took matters into their own hands. Danton had predicted: "Robespierre will follow me; I drag down Robespierre." Robespierre was arrested and sent to the guillotine on July 28, 1794. People then and afterward blamed him for all the horrors of the Reign of Terror, but much of the blame as well as the credit for it belonged to others.More moderate men now governed France. The Convention wrote another constitution--the third since 1789 and the second to be put into operation-- then prepared to dissolve. A mob protested against two thirds of the new assemblies being drawn from the hated Convention. A young artillery officer, Napoleon Bonaparte, protected the new government. He was then practically unknown.The new government, the Directory, proved unable to meet the problems within disorganized France. The glory of foreign victories won under the Directory was due to Bonaparte. On Nov. 9, 1799, he helped overthrow the Directory and replaced it with a Consulate of three members. He was the first consul and actual ruler of France. In 1804 he discarded pretense and called himself "Napoleon I, Emperor of the French." Liberty was gone. Napoleon himself declared: "Liberty is a necessity felt only by a not very numerous class. It can therefore be restricted with impunity. Equality on the other hand pleases the multitude." Few events have so powerfully influenced the political and economic development of the modern world as the French Revolution." --http://history-world.org/french_revolution.htm


Yeah it would be really interesting to read the original French Constitution.

France does seem cool to me. Jim Morrison wanted to be buried there, after all. Père Lachaise would be a good place to visit someday.

 

___________
"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." -Parodites

"Was it necessary for the sense of truth that Nietzsche described as developed by the Judeo-Christian tradition that then manifested itself in the scientific methodology to turn against the symbolic foundation of that structure and demolish it... Jung's answer was that the conflict between science and religion is a consequence of the immature state of both of those domains of thinking... it's just that we aren't good enough at being religious or at being scientific to see how they might be reconciled." -Jordan Peterson
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