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 Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism

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PostSubject: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:04 am

Or rather the "emotional" consequence of it. In The Will To Power (should have been named The Revaluation of Values instead) Nietzsche defines nihilism as "the radical repudiation of value, meaning and desirability". Yes, at the intellectual level this is nihilism but as manifest in the emotions or as our "spiritual" self, it is what is now called depression. N knew our modern and "post"-modern world was becoming more nihilistic by the day, as Christian humanism and today what we can call politically correct liberalism, along with its sister-ideology of political religious conservatism. The right and the left now both mirror nihilism within themselves.

Depression is the inability to be motivated, the inability of desire to move the self into action. Nihilism describes a process whereby the root of desire is cut out from the tree of the self, so that now that tree, removed from its proper earth and supplanted within a larger socioeconomic-ideological organism, slowly whithers and dies.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:42 am

I agree with that, depression is literally a low pressure zone of will, or self-valuing. It can thus not move outward.

To have values means to be a pressure. The tension we call 'will'. And to be a negative pressure, a suction... this is what a depressed person is. He depressurizes all vulnerable pressures around him too. This climatological phenomenon of the psyche explains our society, which is basically just a contest of who is the most depressed.

Obama is  grand archetype of the entitled-depressed person. Has he ever said something not ironic, cynical or sarcastic while in office? No, right?  Well, some condescending remarks about human being that clearly made him very happy to say. That pathetic loser forms the central axis of the whole of nihilistic humanity, Islam as well as fascist China included. Cl****n  represents the impossible state beyond nihilism, the less-than-zero, the stench of rot beyond death, which appeals to all true nihilists more than the scent even of fresh fruit or sex or anything potentiating. (I believe most happy men love the smell of all combustibles.)

Our consumerist society itself is the vessel for a people without values, the products and malls represent the full potential depth of the depression and to dive into them is to deplete oneself further, is like a massive anti-storm, a low pressure area that reacts with extreme local turmoil to any positive pressure points within it.

Nietzsche speaks repeatedly of helping the miserable to their desired end. I think we must also have this mindset, to want the nihilist institutions to perish, rather than to want to redeem or transform them. There is no use for them in a world of values. They are only devices of despair.

As N says here, all the nobility related to such institutions is expended in their creation, in the striving for them; in the phase where it matters not that they are a gross misunderstanding at best, in that phase where they are simply an ideal, an aim, and provide a tension to the bow. So I perceive my communist grandfather, as a young, passionate, perhaps even philosophical man in the resistance, whose victories accomplished many of the opposite things he fought for, and yet whose relentless will to fight set free and ennobled his personal life beyond what most attain. A strong and direct enemy is worth more than almost everything else, given that one has inborn strength. A child growing up without the awareness of enemies, in the soft protection of a modern nest, will be an aborted human.

"My conception of freedom. -- The value of a thing sometimes does not lie in that which one attains by it, but in what one pays for it -- what it costs us. I shall give an example. Liberal institutions cease to be liberal as soon as they are attained: later on, there are no worse and no more thorough injurers of freedom than liberal institutions. Their effects are known well enough: they undermine the will to power; they level mountain and valley, and call that morality; they make men small, cowardly, and hedonistic -- every time it is the herd animal that triumphs with them. Liberalism: in other words, herd-animalization.

These same institutions produce quite different effects while they are still being fought for; then they really promote freedom in a powerful way. On closer inspection it is war that produces these effects, the war for liberal institutions, which, as a war, permits illiberal instincts to continue. And war educates for freedom. For what is freedom? That one has the will to assume responsibility for oneself. That one maintains the distance which separates us. That one becomes more indifferent to difficulties, hardships, privation, even to life itself. That one is prepared to sacrifice human beings for one's cause, not excluding oneself. Freedom means that the manly instincts which delight in war and victory dominate over other instincts, for example, over those of "pleasure." The human being who has become free -- and how much more the spirit who has become free -- spits on the contemptible type of well-being dreamed of by shopkeepers, Christians, cows, females, Englishmen, and other democrats. The free man is a warrior. How is freedom measured in individuals and peoples? According to the resistance which must be overcome, according to the exertion required, to remain on top. The highest type of free men should be sought where the highest resistance is constantly overcome: five steps from tyranny, close to the threshold of the danger of servitude. This is true psychologically if by "tyrants" are meant inexorable and fearful instincts that provoke the maximum of authority and discipline against themselves; most beautiful type: Julius Caesar. This is true politically too; one need only go through history. The peoples who had some value, who attained some value, never attained it under liberal institutions: it was great danger that made something of them that merits respect. Danger alone acquaints us with our own resources, our virtues, our armor and weapons, our spirit, and forces us to be strong. First principle: one must need to be strong -- otherwise one will never become strong.

Those large hothouses for the strong -- for the strongest kind of human being that has so far been known -- the aristocratic commonwealths of the type of Rome or Venice, understood freedom exactly in the sense in which I understand it: as something one has and does not have, something one wants, something one conquers." [Nietzsche, Twilight]

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:53 am

Ah! Some philosophy.

When I started reading Nietzsche I never thought that he was a Nihilist. Quite the opposite. He was indeed a very optimistic person; one who saw the possibility for greatness once again in the human animal.

Years later I encounter some who tried to define Nietzsche as a Nihilist and I always argued against their thoughts. Seems that all had only read what others had said Nietzsche had said but had never actually read Nietzsche at all. They all formed their opinion based on the false opinions of others.

Nihilism is a rather important concept for me as a Taoist because Taoism is very closely linked with Buddhism by many. As with Nietzsche, if Buddhism is misread it can appear to be a very Nihilistic belief system. I regularly have to get into discussions with people who think they understand Buddhism and present their thoughts in a Nihilistic manner.

And I agree that based on what I have observed of American society Americans, in general, are becoming Nihilistic. I can't speak to other societies but I would imagine the trend is nearly equal to what it is in America. And worse, I think it is something that those in power are feeding. That is, the governments and institutions.

And yes, I think that the overman has the responsibility to help these institutions and governments to commit suicide. They are nothing less than an obstacle for the overman and should be allow to die a pitiful death.

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:15 am

Yes, good thoughts. As for eastern religions, N calls these nihilistic because of how they focus on attaining "nothingness" and preach that this world is an illusion; also that they preach about an after-life. Any religion or belief system that teaches either 1) the world is an illusion, you are an illusion, 2) you should deny your desires because desiring is bad/evil/untrue, or 3) there is another life after you die, is pretty much nihilistic in the straightforward sense.

I've had good experiences with Taoist meditations, and I wouldn't degrade it as nihilistic, but if the typical eastern-religious beliefs are also included then yes it would be trending toward nihilism. N doesn't really distinguish between Christianity and Buddhism in this area, since if you're teaching any of those 1-3 above then you're basically teaching nihilism ("the radical repudiation of value, meaning and desirability" as N said) and regardless of whatever else necessity or benefits may be associated to the belief system.

 

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"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:40 am

I would add my own definition of nihilism to N's: the deliberate and structural-unconscious avoidance of truth. When children fantasize and imagine they aren't avoiding truth, they are seeking it. But when a person learns how to use this imaginative method expressly because truths are avoided in the psychological sense, that need is a seed of nihilism.

Nihilism makes peoole slavish, dumb, naive, lasy, and unhappy. These are all consequences of Christianity too, I've observed. I used to think that Christianity at least provided for some high values, and it's true that some high values can coexist with Christianity, but those same values can also live without Christianity and perhaps much better without it.

Philosophy properly understood is the antithesis of nihilism. And anyone who says N was nihilistic simply doesn't understand him at all. Attempting to rank-order values and meanings isn't nihilistic, so long as it is undertaken with an eye and honesty for greater value, meaning and truth and doesn't involve "self-denial" (for example, deliberately suppressing one's own desiring as occurs in Buddhism).

On Christianity specifically I would point to Parodites' insights here, that Christianity represents a stage of the development of subjectivity, and is more like a symptom than anything else. The attempt at a grand reification of the self qua self, the unification of the complex of the 'godhead' into a single image-idea in which we view ourselves negativity, as absence and longing, as lack; we are not the positive expression of nature but the negative expression of the lack of the divine, in Christianity. So interestingly Christianity is nihilistic but also potentially philosophical at the same time, or rather is like a womb from which eventually Christians are born as philosophers, leaving behind their Christianity and turning instead to truth. Christianity is a religion where even God turns upon himself and dies, it is the height of self-refutation and pregnant tension, qua system and in the psychological sense anyway. Even N observed with some fascination the deep psychological complexity of the slave-moralist, compared to that of the master-moralist.

 

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"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:14 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Ah!  Some philosophy.

When I started reading Nietzsche I never thought that he was a Nihilist.  Quite the opposite.  He was indeed a very optimistic person; one who saw the possibility for greatness once again in the human animal.

Years later I encounter some who tried to define Nietzsche as a Nihilist and I always argued against their thoughts.  Seems that all had only read what others had said Nietzsche had said but had never actually read Nietzsche at all.  They all formed their opinion based on the false opinions of others.

Without wanting to be facetious, it is always the nihilists who think N is nihilist - I assume because he explodes in their face as pure dread.

Quote :
Nihilism is a rather important concept for me as a Taoist because Taoism is very closely linked with Buddhism by many.  As with Nietzsche, if Buddhism is misread it can appear to be a very Nihilistic belief system.  I regularly have to get into discussions with people who think they understand Buddhism and present their thoughts in a Nihilistic manner.

Ive always practiced Taoism, as in Shaolin, which has been my school for 20 years. It is the philosophy of Action. I hold it in the highest esteem.

Of course, there are many versions and interpretation of Taoism.
But as you say, Tao is a verb.

Here's my Shaolin teacher discussing the difference and overlap between Tao and Zen.

http://shaolin.org/zen/zen-and-tao.html

As anyone can see none of this relates to the despair and vanity of nihilism - it is all about reification in flux. The objective truth of Flux, which we, when our power is maximized, embody in incomprehensible joy. The cosmic dance, or the cosmic breath - the same are these, when properly attained - one can not fully breathe without dancing.

Quote :
And I agree that based on what I have observed of American society Americans, in general, are becoming Nihilistic.  I can't speak to other societies but I would imagine the trend is nearly equal to what it is in America.  And worse, I think it is something that those in power are feeding.  That is, the governments and institutions.

Yes, I believe that too. I am not clear on how conscious they are of what they are doing - as a nihilist can be methodically extremely clever, as Capable also alludes to, and still not know what it is he is trying for, or why, or what he'll do when he succeeds at whatever his fight leads to.

I'm actually more and more convinced that it is all simply a collective compulsive neurosis. So that amounts the exact opposite to Tao.

The anti-path, which is walked collectively.

Quote :
And yes, I think that the overman has the responsibility to help these institutions and governments to commit suicide.  They are nothing less than an obstacle for the overman and should be allow to die a pitiful death.

Nice.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:38 pm

Capable wrote:
Yes, good thoughts. As for eastern religions, N calls these nihilistic because of how they focus on attaining "nothingness" and preach that this world is an illusion; also that they preach about an after-life. Any religion or belief system that teaches either 1) the world is an illusion, you are an illusion, 2) you should deny your desires because desiring is bad/evil/untrue, or 3) there is another life after you die, is pretty much nihilistic in the straightforward sense.

The afterlife is actually not something Buddha preached. I agree with you that he is in part nihilist, I had a conversation on this with Sauwelios yesterday who linked what I said here about soft benefactors vs strong enemies and the aborted human to Buddha.

Here is what N says about Buddha.

"This [revenge is  forbidden for the sick]  was  comprehended  by  that  profound  physiologist, the Buddha.  His  "religion"  should  rather  be  called  a kind  of  hygiene, lest it be confused with such pitiable phenomena as Christianity: its effectiveness was made conditional on the victory over ressentiment. -To liberate the soul from this is the first  step toward recovery. "Not by enmity is enmity ended; by friendliness  enmity is  ended": these words stand at the beginning of  the doctrine of  the Buddha. It is not morality that speaks thus; thus speaks physiology." [N, Ecce Homo]

Quote :
I've had good experiences with Taoist meditations, and I wouldn't degrade it as nihilistic, but if the typical eastern-religious beliefs are also included then yes it would be trending toward nihilism. N doesn't really distinguish between Christianity and Buddhism in this area, since if you're teaching any of those 1-3 above then you're basically teaching nihilism ("the radical repudiation of value, meaning and desirability" as N said) and regardless of whatever else necessity or benefits may be associated to the belief system.

I would say that the Buddha stands, well, sits as a crossroads. One may from him either take the path into nihilism, through the beliefs you describe, and this seems the most often traveled path. Or one may take the path of honesty, and focus on improving ones physiology, integrating it with the ways of the Earth. This, to me, is Tao, as well as Zen. Zen does it radically, by a pure decision, and I think it is the most beautiful, as well as the most painful. Zen and pain are inseparable. Zen is the beauty of pain. The eye of the storm. But Tao makes the life into a happy fire breathing dragon. Both are majestic. And both require expression in the arts of war... Neither Zen nor Tao exist without the fist next to the open palm.

Zen is in my knuckles. 30 fist pushups on gravel is my morning bliss. Tao is very much in dance and love making. The fluidity of yin however requires the iron core of yang to be stable, gracious, beautiful and wholesome.

Beauty is in the eye of the storm.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 12:59 pm

Capable wrote:
I would add my own definition of nihilism to N's: the deliberate and structural-unconscious avoidance of truth. When children fantasize and imagine they aren't avoiding truth, they are seeking it.

Good point. Very good point.

Quote :
But when a person learns how to use this imaginative method expressly because truths are avoided in the psychological sense, that need is a seed of nihilism.

It becomes a pathology.

And yet because of the methods purity, the goodness of the person is enclosed in his very pathetic-ness.... it can not be resolved through 'a bitter confrontation with reality' brought about by some cruel father. It must be lured or driven out of the pathological fixation, into what is not 'the reality principle' but a daemonism between 'bitter reality' and the nektar of imagination which has been liberated into it.

Quote :
Nihilism makes peoole slavish, dumb, naive, lasy, and unhappy. These are all consequences of Christianity too, I've observed. I used to think that Christianity at least provided for some high values, and it's true that some high values can coexist with Christianity, but those same values can also live without Christianity and perhaps much better without it.

Yes. I think Christianity is only viable when approached from the outside, as a curiosity, and that to grow up in it requires that one loathe it first. I now love Christ, but only because I had such fun in blaspheming him for 30 years and that only worked to tear veils of church and belief and patheticness away from what apparently this dude re/presented. He is a genuine badass, that should be clear. Napoleon was very clear on this too.

Quote :
Philosophy properly understood is the antithesis of nihilism. And anyone who says N was nihilistic simply doesn't understand him at all. Attempting to rank-order values and meanings isn't nihilistic, so long as it is undertaken with an eye and honesty for greater value, meaning and truth and doesn't involve "self-denial" (for example, deliberately suppressing one's own desiring as occurs in Buddhism).

To rank values entirely precludes nihilism, and nihilism is little else than the abolishing of rank, of difference in value.

(One can not rank no-value over no-value)

Quote :
On Christianity specifically I would point to Parodites' insights here, that Christianity represents a stage of the development of subjectivity, and is more like a symptom than anything else. The attempt at a grand reification of the self qua self, the unification of the complex of the 'godhead' into a single image-idea in which we view ourselves negativity, as absence and longing, as lack; we are not the positive expression of nature but the negative expression of the lack of the divine, in Christianity. So interestingly Christianity is nihilistic but also potentially philosophical at the same time, or rather is like a womb from which eventually Christians are born as philosophers, leaving behind their Christianity and turning instead to truth. Christianity is a religion where even God turns upon himself and dies, it is the height of self-refutation and pregnant tension, qua system and in the psychological sense anyway. Even N observed with some fascination the deep psychological complexity of the slave-moralist, compared to that of the master-moralist.

Parodites' view on Christianity is the most interesting one Ive seen. It certainly defeats Nietzsche's view of it, even though most Christians are far better defined by Nietzsche's analysis than by Parodites' - P shows us the heights and depths that Christianity made possible, and it is even possible to see Nietzsche in these terms. Obviously, "the antiChrist", when seen in terms of Christ-man as negativity, positively speaks volumes....

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:41 pm

First, thanks for the link. I decided to not study Zen because in the beginning it was too Buddhist for me. But based on the little I know I agree with the person in the link.

Actually, Nietzsche wasn't as hard on the Buddhists as he was on the Christians. That was actually a surprise for me.

I doubt anyone could make a case that Taoism is Nihilistic. The Taoist Sage? Maybe apathetic but not nihilistic.
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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:53 pm

From the point of view that N takes, any religion or belief that teaches "reincarnation of souls", for example, or escape from the karmic wheel of life into some non-entity status of pure bliss absent all desiring, is pretty textbook nihilistic. N's points here on nihilism and religions are basically: demeaning THIS world and THIS life for the sake of an imagined other (whether as heaven with Jesus, karmic reincarnation or nirvana) is nonsensical and stems from a psychological defect in the one who believes such things. Teaching people that this world/life/self is temporary and inferior to a supposed non-temporary and superior world/life/self is worse than nonsense, it is a kind of mind virus. Imagine teaching that kind of shit to a child, and then hoping that child could grow up valuing truth... no, it only happens sometimes for example in Christianity and precisely where a Christian breaks free of his Christianity.

Like N's comments about liberal institutions, these have merit only when they are being build, because they inspire war instincts; likewise, Christianity has merit only when it inspires the instincts to surpass and overcome Christianity. Yet I don't see any similr surpassing and overcoming when it comes to eastern religions.

 

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"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:37 am

Note that Taoism doesn't have the notion of reincarnation or afterlife.
These are Hindu notions.

Buddha, who was from India, is the end result of a very old tradition involving great majesty - a tired man with a pure heart. Not high, not low.

From his thoughts about detachment, a whole slew of ethical directions developed, so many it is impossible to count them.

"Buddhism" doesn't really exist. It refers largely to insane clown posses of spiritualistic jungle dwellers who build eerie temples with bats in them and such. It's the low forms that followed from Gautama's dangerous words. Most of it is a continuation of the 'spiritual filth' accumulated, enforced by Manu's law, by the Chandala caste. All of them yearn for absolution in an afterlife.

Nirvana is simply the experience of clarity about the physical universe manifesting (maya) (as opposed to being, 'suchness') entirely as a reflection ones nervous system, and not even permitted to the lower caste - it is a privilege of the Brahmans, the supreme caste. Even still, there are many levels of it, and indubitably philosophy is akin to some of the higher states. Not equal, but akin. Blissful not-erring. Reification of flux, in Taoisim notably through synthetic applications of the number 5.

The sole aim is health. Mans capacity for health is vastly expanded by the thousands of years of Taoist and Zen discipline. As N says, it starts with successfully bringing an end to resentment, starting by understanding it as a physiological phenomenon.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:38 am

Capable wrote:
From the point of view that N takes, any religion or belief that teaches "reincarnation of souls", for example, or escape from the karmic wheel of life into some non-entity status of pure bliss absent all desiring, is pretty textbook nihilistic. N's points here on nihilism and religions are basically: demeaning THIS world and THIS life for the sake of an imagined other (whether as heaven with Jesus, karmic reincarnation or nirvana) is nonsensical and stems from a psychological defect in the one who believes such things. Teaching people that this world/life/self is temporary and inferior to a supposed non-temporary and superior world/life/self is worse than nonsense, it is a kind of mind virus. Imagine teaching that kind of shit to a child, and then hoping that child could grow up valuing truth... no, it only happens sometimes for example in Christianity and precisely where a Christian breaks free of his Christianity.

Like N's comments about liberal institutions, these have merit only when they are being build, because they inspire war instincts; likewise, Christianity has merit only when it inspires the instincts to surpass and overcome Christianity. Yet I don't see any similr surpassing and overcoming when it comes to eastern religions.

Nicely said. My thoughts were pretty much this way even before I first read anything from Nietzsche. I guess that is why I became so attracted to him.

Eastern religions are similar to Western religions, and mot others for that matter, in that they all teach some wonderful after life without any proof whatever that such a place actually exists. All you need is faith and nihilism.

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:47 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Note that Taoism doesn't have the notion of reincarnation or afterlife.
These are Hindu notions.

Buddha, who was from India, is the end result of a very old tradition involving great majesty - a tired man with a pure heart. Not high, not low.

Very true. The roots of Taoism never talked about any kind of reincarnation or after life. That came later when Buddhism was taken to China.

And yes, Buddha was raised in the Hindu belief system. Apparently his belief was weak. Hehehe.

The practical teachings of Buddhism aren't all that bad. They teach how to live a better life in the "now" - how to decrease one's suffering.

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:37 am

But "decreasing suffering" is part of why N condemns these systems as nihilistic. They seek to minimize reality contact where that contact is painful even if truthful; I don't know if Taoists run from pain and discomfort but I know Christians do, and it seems to me that so do Buddhists (monastic ascetics notwithstanding). N also writes somewhere about asceticism and stoicism also being suspect and not that great.

A philosopher uses his pains and sufferings and even inflicts these on himself to push his philosophy higher; philosophy is a crucible in which we burn our pains to produce truths from that fire. Philosophy as masochism, but not the kind that comes from self-hate, instead from simple necessity and the joy of truthfulness. The will to power expands in our increased strength for bearing our pains rather than running from them like a coward. That is the Lion who surpasses the Camel.

Based on what I've seen, Christians and Buddhists are definitely camels, at best, and blind stumbling unconscious camels at worst (denying the reality of their own burdens which they always seek to carry as badge of their "pride", for example the "pride" of being a victim, or as ressentiment.) I don't know any Taoists but I've read a great book on Taoist monks, they seem more joyful and earth-grounded and don't seem to shy away from pain.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:47 am

Per my definition of pathology that I riff off of from Lacan a little, "needing and wanting what you despise or resist; resisting the very effects that you deliberately caused" (for a recent example think of Ariana Grande and her rant about being unhappy men see her as a sex object... yes of course they do, since that is precisely how you want them to see you (although really these sort of feminist rants are only excuses to attack men qua male)), which is very close to how I understand ideology as well, pathology is essentially an expression of nihilistic consequences. Similar to depression, being pathological or ideological is a side-effect of nihilism residing in a person's consciousness. It doesn't even neee to be intended, since if enough nihilistic experiences and ideas are put into one's memory and mind this will gradually skew consciousness in that direction, confusing it into ressentiment or Christianity for example.

A little nihilism is probably inevitable, at least until the Child appears (surpass the Lion). The world is basically still far too irrational for consciousnesses to form properly and without gross errors. Philosophy is the long slow struggle to fix this problem.

Just about everyone in the west is Christianized, this is our current threshold subjectivity type even if we aren't religious. So we naturally draw the nihilism inward, where it can be worked on to produce more fire of self and motivation (unless we kill it with psychotropics and seeing a the-rapist).

 

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"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

Odinwar <---[truth]---> Jeraz

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:47 am

Haha, yes psycho-the-rapist, he knows what do do with your depression.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 3:15 pm

Judaeo-Christianity discovered the immanence of subjective existence, while the Greeks before them only progressed to a regard of the ontic, mirroring themselves through the logos within the image of the cosmos and vice versa. For the Greeks- and for Nietzsche, all suffering is a dispensation of fatum, and man must mirror this external imposition by the universe within his own internal will through the logos, in order to, in turn, project his internal will on the universe and reach the height of the ontos in amor fati, the love of his fate, of the whole.

But the Jews and Christians, understanding the immanent negativity of human subjectivity, and its basis in a fundamental lack that cannot mirror the cosmos or be mirrored in it, came to a far deeper psychology of man. All modern psychology is based on their insight- into the ego. Freud outlines the Ego as based in a similar lack. The whole Oedipal complex was configured in sexual terms merely due to Freud's conceptual limitation, it is really about the fundamental lack and guilt that the ego is based on:

The real meaning of the Oedipal complex, the fundamental concept in Freud, (object-relations
theory is simply an expansion of Freud in opposition to Lacan) is the following:
the true source of man's psychic power, of his very Will itself, is- guilt. Man's psychic
wound is the source of all his power, of the very dynamic force responsible for
differentiation and individuation. As sexuality is simply one of many expressions of our
power, Freud took it as a distinctively primordial expression of man's existential guilt,
which he could find no other way to configure save by an incestuous fascination with the
mother.

Becker read that primordial guilt as coming from Death-anxiety, I have my own view on it, etc. But the basic Freudian idea is the primordial guilt itself, Oedipal guilt around sexuality was merely Freud's attempt to configure it. But the truly first in history to realize this primordial guilt or lack were the Christians working off what the Jews came to understand, and they configured it with the myth of Christ.

The need to configure that lack as guilt with a schemata or myth is what I call Representation. Lacan rejected this need and developed Reflectivity. For him, the "lack" is merely the lack of a primary object of desire, desire's missing center of gravity. There is nothing to represent, we just narcissistically feed ourselves our own libido by endlessly preventing desire from arriving to its object, breaking all whole objects down into metonyms, objectifying ourselves and everyone into piles of body parts, etc. **

Having realized this, Judaeo-Christianity began to teach that all suffering was merely an outward projection of the fundamental lack, wound, and guilt that the human ego is generated by- a projection of it as impotent fury on the outside and on other people. And the reason why it is projected this way, is because people do not understand the reality of their unconscious, where this wound exists. They do not understand that all psychic power and dynamic energy for individuating the ego comes from this wound.

Thus, all suffering is merely the result of misunderstanding your own desires, complexes, and ego structure. And if people only knew the Truth, they would not suffer. Now The Christians did not have the conceptual ability to express this idea in anything other than religious terms, so they used the figure of the Cross and Christ to try and shock the merely external and phenomenal personality to make people look within, into their immanent subjectivity, in order to realize the guilt that is actually motivating them, which conceals itself through desire and the seductions of power. If they did, they would no longer misunderstand it, they would no longer project it blindly in rage on the outside as power, and thus that projection would not be continually defeated by life as it is, and thus they would not suffer anymore. The Cross is not supposed to make you feel guilty, it is supposed to shock the false constructed personality floating on top of your unconscious, so that you look within and realize the guilt, the all pervading negativity or lack, that is already there, that forms the core of subjectivity in its immanence, and which, while it is not understood, manifests itself as a furious projection of the ego on the outside, as an unrestrained dynamic force individuating the ego in all humans- as the Will to Power.


This immanent subject was necessary to develop man beyond the ontic, and the transcendent subject will be necessary to develop man beyond the immanent. That new subjectivity does not exist. Nobody has overcome Judaeo-Christianity yet. Nietzsche in many ways regressed to the ontic, he... became a Greek again. He escaped the Judaeo-Christian dialectic of spirit, but he did not overcome it.



** Lacan, Nietzsche, atheism, the whole modern complex of social forces seemingly, [feminism is for example neither an attack on men or a defense of women, it is a concealed deconstruction of the Oedipal complex and various other potential configurations of the representative function, and therefor an attack on the idea of immanence, psychic guilt,etc. As is communism and Marxism.] is eroding the fundamental ideas about the immanence of subjectivity which are necessary in furthering man's self-understanding. On this psychological front, I have advanced my own psychology, which takes into account both Freud and Lacan, to the purpose of rescuing the idea of immanence and of representation for our hyper-modernity. Those ideas are necessary to advance beyond the immanence of Judaeo-Christianity. IE, this text summarizes my defense of representation and the mother standing in as a metaphor for a primary object in the Oedipal entanglement, but not through the configurations of Freudian incestuous guilt:



Representation is related to the role of the metaphorical function, by which the mother
comes to stand for something else in the psychic entanglement of the child, that is, a
whole object in an Oedipal complex: Lacan rejects this and the whole representative
operation of love, in order to replace the Oedipal complex with an irresolvable process of
continuous substitution and postponement of desire, the metonymic operation.
Reflectivity is related to this metonymic function in Lacan, the closed circuit of
continuous substitutions, one part for the part of another, through which no complete
object is ever formed upon which desire could arrive, and through which the mechanics
of fluids never achieves the solidity of representation. Thus, for Lacan, the mother cannot
serve the foundation of a functional metaphor or representation, instead she is actually a
nonobject, a semiotic negativity, through whose abruption the anti-oedipus prevents the
stabilization of a true ego or unitary subject: the symbolic gaps in this merely reflective-ego
prevent a whole body from ever forming on the basis of a desire for a whole object,
and erogeneity just amounts to a splitting up of the body into random zones without any
primary differentiation, just an endless substitution of one partial object for another, or
metonymy, a closed circuit that spins around and around and can only, in the end, take us
back to where we started, the collapse of the phallic metonym into reflectivity, the de-erection
of the partial, fictive self, the self which can never become whole, for it wants
only a part; the collapse of desire itself, into need, or lack.

In our current presentation, however, representation or the metaphor stabilizes reflectivity or the metonym, and vice
versa. The mother becomes a representation, not by coming to stand in for another mere
object in the child's psychic entanglement- that is, for another empty object, as Lacan
reads Freud as indicating, but rather, when the infant attaches positive excitations in the
pre-oedipal stage to her, in the state of expansive oblation, so that she inaugurates the
function of the metaphor by projecting the drives discovered in the infantile metonymy
into the domain of signification; the mother becomes in this way a symbol for the era of
infantile omnipotence, for refuge, a protective shield, in which the ego hides itself from
the external world when its oblation is thwarted by trauma, so that it can continue to
safely develop through the reversal of the infantile progression in the next progression of
ego-formation, that of the child, when the traumatic register of the real is made, and this
idealization of maternal refuge is shattered- the function of the metaphor destabilized. In
turn the metonymic, or reflectivity, appears again, with the final adolescent progression,
in a closed, postponed libidinal circuit which negotiates the jouissance of the child's
descent in Holderlinian joy into tragedy and abandonment, and partitions the memory of
the lost refuge in the mother so as to form the object of the secondary representation- the
"secondary object" which is the erotic fixation in another female, which is metaphoricity
itself, the symbol of a symbol: as the primary object or mother projects the infant's pre-oedipal
excitations into symbolic space, representing safety and refuge, so the secondary
object closes off that space by projecting into it the guilt of abandonment following the
internalization of loss after that idealization is shattered, in order to represent a fantasy of
completion and integrity capable of opposing, of going beyond in Freud's language, the
reality-principle or traumatic decoupling of subject and object. The metonymy, the
shattering of subject and object as results from the traumatic dissolution of the
idealization of the mother as refuge, allows reflectivity to bring the ego toward this
fantasy of integrity and completion, that is, the beloved, without ever completely arriving
to it, without entirely de-subjectivizing need or lack, and also to pull the ego away from
that fantasy, without fully leaving it behind, without entirely de-objectifying desire. Love
is just this: love is the lack through which lack can never be made the subject of an object
to merely suffer and need- thus the lack that forces us to become whole and desire; love is
the excess through which excess can never be made the object for a subject to merely
hold and want- thus the whole that forces us to lack, to become incomplete and to need. It
is for that reason that only love is capable of holding masculinity and femininity together
without dissolving their identities. All in all: Freud focused too extensively on the
metaphoric operation, or representation, while Lacan committed the same error with the
metonymic function, or reflectivity. There exists a third category yet unexplored, beyond
metaphor and metonym, beyond symbol and sign, namely the sign-symbol of
Romanticism or the tautegory, which represents the very tension or incomplete process
which gives rise to it, as representation and reflection here give rise to the liminal
threshold, love, through which they cross one another, out of which the male creates the
female through himself and the female creates the male through herself.


And to address depression and mental suffering in general on the basis of these ideas, I wrote elsewhere:


Normally the idealization of the mother breaks down in the later stages of childhood and
reflective guilt initiates the formation of the mature ego throughout adolescence, but if it
does not properly happen that way, that is, if the life-affirming impulses are not attached
to her due to some kind of trauma or the idealization is not appropriately deflated, then
the basic sense of loss never becomes differentiated in Milner's language, so that there is
nothing to prompt the existential "search for the self" out of abandonment; such a person
is driven to look instead, desperately and often fatally, for some object in the external, for
some object in the world in which to symbolize their very reflectivity and differentiate
their guilt-object from their secondary-object or fixation, for their desire to become
nothing- their thanatos or fundamental psychic wound, cannot be recognized and
transformed into eros, as it is in the healthy individual, so as to generate, through the
Oedipal complex, a will capable of discharging the narcissistic reservoir, (roughly
equivalent to the schizoid defense before formation of the depressive position in Klein)
until they attach it to something neurotically interpreted as offending in the outside world,
a perceived threat often found in the mother, who, insofar as they admit some
consciousness of the desire to destroy her to themselves- often as a fear of their own
secret malice toward her before genuine guilt, (equivalent to Klein's paranoiac positioning
between schizoidal separation from the world and depressive submission to it) allows for
guilt to finally stabilize an, albeit stunted, primary narcissitic fantasy and motive force for
the personality, that is, a project, however compromised, for self-discovery, which could
be compared with the Lacanian sinthome following the reconstuction of a transitional ego
beyond abjection, which really means here: after the total dissolution of the functioning
ego into reflective guilt. The resultant destabilized ego will either be incredibly
vulnerable to excitation, suffering emotional states of incredible intensity, and thus
inclined to secrecy and inactivity, or insensate and inclined to hyper-activity, that is,
either schizoidal or psychopathic.

---


So I am not in "agreement" with either Judaeo-Christianity or Nietzsche and atheism, or with either Freud or Lacan, or with either Marxism or Capitalism. I have a problem and a confirmation with each of them. Each is a symptom of the other to me. I'm only in agreement with my own philosophy and psychology. My philosophy of truth allows me this liberty, as I file everything away into different truth domains. Nietzsche, along with the Greeks, speaks from the ontic episteme. Christianity from the immanent, etc.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:08 pm

Capable wrote:
But "decreasing suffering" is part of why N condemns these systems as nihilistic. They seek to minimize reality contact where that contact is painful even if truthful; I don't know if Taoists run from pain and discomfort but I know Christians do, and it seems to me that so do Buddhists (monastic ascetics notwithstanding). N also writes somewhere about asceticism and stoicism also being suspect and not that great.

Lao Tzu doesn't even speak to the subject. Chuang Tzu does but basically what he says is that we should acknowledge "what is".
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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:08 pm

S - People tend to confuse India and China a lot. The idea that Taosim has to do with rejecting reality, instead of embedding oneself in ones physiology, must be blamed on the new age hippies who thought everything where you stretch your muscles and reflect on your thinking occasionally is headed for the afterlife. Where in fact, none of it is.

As I said, belief in and will to absolution in afterlife only lived among the Untouchables, the beggards, of India, as well as in the rich of California.  Well, and the monotheists. About which:

Parodites wrote:
"Having realized this, Judaeo-Christianity began to teach that all suffering was merely an outward projection of the fundamental lack, wound, and guilt that the human ego is generated by- a projection of it as impotent fury on the outside and on other people. And the reason why it is projected this way, is because people do not understand the reality of their unconscious, where this wound exists. They do not understand that all psychic power and dynamic energy for individuating the ego comes from this wound."

Even regardless of whether I agree with this, as a basis for method, this is about the most potentiating psychoanalytic structure Ive seen.

Factual truth pales in comparison to true method. A method is 'objective', like a hammer, it applies itself to a fabric and then we'll see how the fabric responds. It is confident enough that it will always have its effect where there is value that meets it.

Method <=> Value



Christianity, in this definition, seeks the use the method of justification to transform the physiology of lack/resentment in a happy prospecting on the future. One may call it a collective compulsive neurosis banking on discomfort, aimed by genius at, well, more genius, depth, being.

Taosim in this definition, seeks to use the method of calming the nervous system, to transform the physiology of lack/resentment in a happy awareness of the present. This can lead to nothing very much removed from the departure point - it is a loosening of the bowstrings/wills tension.

Christianity is the phenomenal tension of the slave-will on the endless road of mastering itself.

 

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- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:03 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
S - People tend to confuse India and China a lot. The idea that Taosim has to do with rejecting reality, instead of embedding oneself in ones physiology, must be blamed on the new age hippies who thought everything where you stretch your muscles and reflect on your thinking occasionally is headed for the afterlife. Where in fact, none of it is.

Exactly. The Chinese accepted the Buddhist Religion because they had no religion. But that is the only connection. Chinese culture, including Taoism, was unchanged for a few hundred years until the Taoists wanted to make Taoism a religion. At that time it was ordered that the structure of the Taoist religion must be similar to the well established Buddhist religion at that time.

New Age folks get the Eastern religions all mixed up but that is mostly the fault of the writers who really know very little of what they are writing about.

I had some good fights with the Buddhists when I first joined the forum because they were dominating all philosophical discussions and grossly misrepresenting Taoism. The Buddhists now have their own sub-forum so that they can talk about Buddhism all they want without interfering with the Philosophical Taoist discussions. And yes, Philosophical Taoism is very different from the Buddhist Religion.

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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:29 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
S - People tend to confuse India and China a lot. The idea that Taosim has to do with rejecting reality, instead of embedding oneself in ones physiology, must be blamed on the new age hippies who thought everything where you stretch your muscles and reflect on your thinking occasionally is headed for the afterlife. Where in fact, none of it is.

As I said, belief in and will to absolution in afterlife only lived among the Untouchables, the beggards, of India, as well as in the rich of California.  Well, and the monotheists. About which:

Parodites wrote:
"Having realized this, Judaeo-Christianity began to teach that all suffering was merely an outward projection of the fundamental lack, wound, and guilt that the human ego is generated by- a projection of it as impotent fury on the outside and on other people. And the reason why it is projected this way, is because people do not understand the reality of their unconscious, where this wound exists. They do not understand that all psychic power and dynamic energy for individuating the ego comes from this wound."

Even regardless of whether I agree with this, as a basis for method, this is about the most potentiating psychoanalytic structure Ive seen.

Factual truth pales in comparison to true method. A method is 'objective', like a hammer, it applies itself to a fabric and then we'll see how the fabric responds. It is confident enough that it will always have its effect where there is value that meets it.

Method <=> Value



Christianity, in this definition, seeks the use the method of justification to transform the physiology of lack/resentment in a happy prospecting on the future. One may call it a collective compulsive neurosis banking on discomfort, aimed by genius at, well, more genius, depth, being.

Taosim in this definition, seeks to use the method of calming the nervous system, to transform the physiology of lack/resentment in a happy awareness of the present. This can lead to nothing very much removed from the departure point - it is a loosening of the bowstrings/wills tension.

Christianity is the phenomenal tension of the slave-will on the endless road of mastering itself.


That wound, rather it is configured by the image of the Cross in Christianity, Oedipal sexual guilt in Freud, etc. is the price paid for by civilization, namely the fall from innocence into sin, into knowledge- into death. I take it as factually existing, though it can be overcome, by moving beyond a view of man's immanent subjectivity to a psycho-philosophy of the transcendental subject. Such a philosophy does not presently exist. Rather than achieving that, Nietzsche re-discovered what the Greeks were in my view- and in his view, namely by regressing to the ontic subject and becoming a Greek. He was a necessary step backward, so that man could move forward eventually.

 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Mon Jan 02, 2017 9:05 am

Parodites wrote:
Normally the idealization of the mother breaks down in the later stages of childhood and
reflective guilt initiates the formation of the mature ego throughout adolescence, but if it
does not properly happen that way, that is, if the life-affirming impulses are not attached
to her due to some kind of trauma or the idealization is not appropriately deflated, then
the basic sense of loss never becomes differentiated in Milner's language, so that there is
nothing to prompt the existential "search for the self" out of abandonment; such a person
is driven to look instead, desperately and often fatally, for some object in the external, for
some object in the world in which to symbolize their very reflectivity and differentiate
their guilt-object from their secondary-object or fixation, for their desire to become
nothing- their thanatos or fundamental psychic wound, cannot be recognized and
transformed into eros, as it is in the healthy individual, so as to generate, through the
Oedipal complex, a will capable of discharging the narcissistic reservoir, (roughly
equivalent to the schizoid defense before formation of the depressive position in Klein)
until they attach it to something neurotically interpreted as offending in the outside world,
a perceived threat often found in the mother, who, insofar as they admit some
consciousness of the desire to destroy her to themselves- often as a fear of their own
secret malice toward her before genuine guilt, (equivalent to Klein's paranoiac positioning
between schizoidal separation from the world and depressive submission to it) allows for
guilt to finally stabilize an, albeit stunted, primary narcissitic fantasy and motive force for
the personality, that is, a project, however compromised, for self-discovery, which could
be compared with the Lacanian sinthome following the reconstuction of a transitional ego
beyond abjection, which really means here: after the total dissolution of the functioning
ego into reflective guilt. The resultant destabilized ego will either be incredibly
vulnerable to excitation, suffering emotional states of incredible intensity, and thus
inclined to secrecy and inactivity, or insensate and inclined to hyper-activity, that is,
either schizoidal or psychopathic.

I can confirm that this is correct, as some of my clients display this schizoid separation and paranoia just as you describe, under a neurotically interpreted symbolic orientation to the outside world in which the narcissistic reservoir is able to (somewhat and with structural distortions) discharge itself, if I am correct in understanding you. The image of the mother, as you say, is indeed useful here for these people. And as you say, these people are indeed very sensitive to excitation and experience an intensity of emotions, and become diagnosed with Schizoaffective and Bipolar Disorder as a result... and are inclined to secrecy and inactivity, as you say.

Another interesting one is Borderline Personality, this is where a person experiences extreme emotional instability and the emotions swing from moment to moment into extreme differences. The tiniest stimuli, like a single thought or the memory of something mundane from years ago, can trigger the reversal of the entire emotional machinery from happiness into despair, and vice versa. This condition is supposedly caused by the parents invalidating the emotions of the child, combined with an authoritarian military-like household where the child always knows what is expected and what will not be tolerated, and the child always experiences the conflicting pressure of knowing this and being forced to conform to it... because such rules are almost never spoken out loud but are left to be merely inferred. The child learns to cut down and suppress their own emotional reactions to certain things, and to fake emotions to other things, until this stabilizes as their subjective template for how feelings work for them. They become very manipulative, even when they don't want to, even to themselves; no emotion is "just an emotion", it always also includes a little kernel of extra self-awareness, the knowledge of the emotion and what caused it and why, which extra awareness was required in childhood to make sure the child was adhering to the rules of the household in such a way that didn't evoke punishment but also didn't make the parents realize the child was "acting" for their benefit.

So these people with borderline personality, as it is called, are treated with something called DBT, dialectical behavioral therapy. It aims to instantiate three dialectics of the individual, tensions they are subject to, and bring these into contrast with each other to provoke resolution. But more interestingly to me, I think these people are proto-philosophers: their hyper-awareness of their own emotional states extends not only to the emotion itself but to its how and why and where and what-if, they are extreme fantasizers and learn the subtlest routes in and out of their own emotional states, all tied into meaningful memories or experiences... for most people this causes tremendous suffering from which they cannot escape, because they lack the one thing that could teach them about themselves and how to control these extremes within them, namely they lack philosophy. "DBT" is designed to act like philosophy, to stimulate something like a philosophical project for people and therapists who are not philosophers and have basically no inclination in that direction.

Although perhaps every person with borderline personality disorder would be naturally inclined to philosophy, simply out of personal desperation to learn how to control what has happened to them.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"It would be wise to exercise caution with one's wishes." --Penny Royal AI

Odinwar <---[truth]---> Jeraz

Peace. War. Love. Wordz


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PostSubject: Re: Depression is the spiritual consequence of nihilism    Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:44 pm

Such personalty disorders all originate in a dysfunction of the narcissistic reservoir, either in terms of externalization or internalization, using categories I brought up some time ago and am still working out. In the terms of the text I posted, externalization and the external personality are constructed by the metaphoric function- representation, while internalization and the internal personality are constructed by the reflective function. I had also used the category of integration, which in the text I signify by the autopoiesis of the sign-symbol.

The unintegrated personality cannot defend the ego from stimuli: both positive and negative reinforcement, both positive and negative stimuli, will further compromise its integrity- such a personality will bury itself in the secrecy of internalization in desperation for an adequate ego-defense, whose neurotic manifestation is paranoia, for the reflective function will become disconnected from the symbolic construction and deteriorate into a never ending reflective circle devoid of any contact with its representable object, or it will bury itself in the fury of externalization, whereby the symbolic construction of the metaphoric function will eventually become disconnected from reality, giving the neurotic manifestation of psychopathy and delusion, hyper-inflating the behavior and response of the person.

If I were to advance a theory of treatment, I would focus on this. Without re-establishing the autopoiesis and integrity of the ego-fortification, any resolution of what are in my view two basic personalities will never hold.


 

___________
A sik þau trûðu


Nisus ait, "Dine hunc ardorem mentibus addunt,
Euryale, an sua cuique deus fit dira cupido?"

Have the gods set this ruling passion in my heart,
or does each man's furious passion become his god?
- Virgil.


It is not opium which makes me work but its absence, and in order for me to feel its absence it must
from time to time be present.-- Antonin Artaud
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