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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:51 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Fuck human beings. I dont give a shit for that category.

Most human beings lack integrity, which means they lack being.

Ive said since 2011 that I think most humans do not exist.

the species is at best a template for potential entities, it's not actually made up of entities.

A healthy cat and a philosopher are alike, they have value-integrity. A Clontin supporter is more like a worm. It doesn't matter in how many pieces they are broken, they keep glubbering on blindly.


Many humans are at best very poor examples of being human. You won't find me disputing that.

And yet, even so, they are still human. And that means something, at least to me.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:51 pm

To me it means nothing.


 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:55 pm

To me, an entity has to prove itself. I don't care which species it supposedly is, what some people have decided it is centuries ago.

If it doesn't have integrity, its not my species and I know all good it can do is die. If it does, I consider it with care. If this is a cat or a human, that's absolutely equal to me.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:55 pm

Here is another way to frame the issue:

Assume a person enters a coma. Their heart stops, and they need machines to keep it going. Their brainwave activity is zero. They are not breathing, but are kept alive by machinery. Are they alive or dead?

Let's make it more interesting. Let's say in this situation others who have been in that predicament have a 50% change of eventually waking out of it back into consciousness. Does that mean we have a right to kill that person when they are in the coma-state, because during that state they are "not alive", or rather is the mere fact that the might eventually wake from the state into consciousness and life evidence enough that to kill them would be wrong?

I think the latter, and this is the very reason I also believe it is wrong to abort even a 1 minute old embryo. The categorical distinction rests, in part, on the fact that an embryo (or a human in a coma) is logically expected to have a distinct possibility, even likelihood, of continuing its development to becoming a living human being. That fact alone is proof enough that we cannot simply relegate such a being to non-living status.

If you know something is going to happen in the future, you do not simply act as if you do not know that fact. That would be irrational, and in other areas of life we do not operate that way. So why do we operate that way when it comes to a gestating, developing human life?

People do it only because of inhuman feminist brainwashing.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:55 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
To me, an entity has to prove itself. I don't care which species it supposedly is, what some people have decided it is centuries ago.

If it doesn't have integrity, its not my species and I know all good it can do is die. If it does, I consider it with care. If this is a cat or a  human, that's absolutely equal to me.

To reiterate what I also just said, even a Clontin supporter, or an embryo, always has the potential to prove itself later down the road. Who are you to take that away?

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 1:58 pm

Honestly, I could not live if I thought of myself as belonging to the same species as Clontin and such - I would have literally no way of identifying with myself. I'd have to start murdering people and going insane to feel able to exist.

This is very literal. I don't think these beings are remotely related to what I am. That they walk upright and speak does nothing to relate them to me. I judge only in terms of integrity.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:00 pm

And to be even more clear on what I am saying: any belief in a right to, or in the goodness of, abortion, is inhuman feminist brainwashing. I really do believe that.

There is no way to draw a line around the second when a developing gestating embryo, fetus or baby is alive or not alive. It simply is not possible, no matter how we want to draw it up. Yes the pineal gland and heartbeat, and neurological activity, and ability to feel pain, all of those are interesting and taken together might seem to constitute an arguably decent demarcating line; however, that isn't actually the case that they constitute such a line. In reality it is not possible to analytically, quantifiably demarcate a life like that.

This error is both a feminist error and one of analytic thinking, a 'positivist' type approach. It is implicitly, deeply dehumanizing and irrational. Not only that but it simply cannot be logically argued to exist, such an absolute line of when life 'beings', therefore I reject the idea entirely.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:02 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Honestly, I could not live if I thought of myself as belonging to the same species as Clontin and such - I would have literally no way of identifying with myself. I'd have to start murdering people and going insane to feel able to exist.

This is very literal. I don't think these beings are remotely related to what I am. That they walk upright and speak does nothing to relate them to me. I judge only in terms of integrity.

I know and have known Clontingoo. I know what their 'inner world' is like to some degree, and I know that it is possible for them to be redeemed in the right circumstances, at least some of them. Mostly those circumstances are lacking.

If not for you and Parodites I would probably still hate Trump, and be aligned to vacuous postmodern liberalism for example. Each person has key moments in their life when they are able to surpass their errors, limits and illusions. It is important, to me anyway, that we work this fact into any sort of social ontology or philosophy that we wish to advocate. Namely, the possibility of change, growth, progress, the discovery of integrity. No one is born with reason, rather we learn it. We are educated, or not.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:05 pm

As 'proof' of admittedly limited type, I will offer that in virtually all groups of humans Ive physically been in, I need to expel myself within the hour to either cry or vomit. Suffering "human nature" It feels like being immersed in poisonous gasses.

Whereas with squirrels, I can spend whole afternoons and feel only better for it, and understood.

It is sad that such may appear crazy, as it is quite natural and wonderful to be understood as pure joyful being which many animals have great capacity to do. And it is that joyful being that is selfvaluing, to which so few humans manage to attain. They are goo.

::

I am contending there is no analytic way of identifying a human, of differentiating him from other species. I claim that only self-valuing integrity is means to analytically categorize. And thus that analytically, humanity can not be considered a set. It's a haphazard pile of vastly differing forms.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:09 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Honestly, I could not live if I thought of myself as belonging to the same species as Clontin and such - I would have literally no way of identifying with myself. I'd have to start murdering people and going insane to feel able to exist.

This is very literal. I don't think these beings are remotely related to what I am. That they walk upright and speak does nothing to relate them to me. I judge only in terms of integrity.

I know and have known Clontingoo. I know what their 'inner world' is like to some degree, and I know that it is possible for them to be redeemed in the right circumstances, at least some of them. Mostly those circumstances are lacking.

If not for you and Parodites I would probably still hate Trump, and be aligned to vacuous postmodern liberalism for example. Each person has key moments in their life when they are able to surpass their errors, limits and illusions. It is important, to me anyway, that we work this fact into any sort of social ontology or philosophy that we wish to advocate. Namely, the possibility of change, growth, progress, the discovery of integrity. No one is born with reason, rather we learn it. We are educated, or not.

You were against Trump but you were never in support of Clontin. You were able to respond to facts. That means you have integrity.

It is not at all self-evident that Trump is benevolent. That takes work to discover. It is self-evident that Clont is wretched, weak, dishonest and irresponsible. People that support her nonetheless, they cant be said to have integrity - and this means they do not exist. They have no potential for growth, or learning, in them. That is what I mean with lacking integrity.
Like a leper, all they try to carry just rips parts away from them.
There is nothing that can be done. They've been born abortions.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:13 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
As 'proof' of admittedly limited type, I will offer that in virtually all groups of humans Ive physically been in, I need to expel myself within the hour to either cry or vomit. Suffering "human nature" It feels like being immersed in poisonous gasses.

Whereas with squirrels, I can spend whole afternoons and feel only better for it, and understood.

It is sad that such may appear crazy, as it is quite natural and wonderful to be understood as pure joyful being  which many animals have great capacity to do. And it is that joyful being that is selfvaluing, to which so few humans manage to attain. They are goo.

::

I am contending there is no analytic way of identifying a human, of differentiating him from other species. I claim that only self-valuing integrity is means to analytically categorize. And thus that analytically, humanity can not be considered a set. It's a haphazard pile of vastly differing forms.

Yes I have noted that you developed this point previously elsewhere here, and it is something I return to from time to time. I still do not entirely accept this view, but I am in partial agreement with it. I agree that if one were to use self-valuing as you understand it here, as the supreme standard-value and means of measurement, then indeed one human could be more alike to a squirrel than to another human. But I simply cannot go the entire way on that, for many reasons. Although I agree it is a very interesting philosophical view to hold. In any case I do think about your perspective a lot.

What it means to be a human being is simply much more than "pleasant self-valuing" like a squirrel chewing its acorn and not worrying about the threat of atomic holocaust, or whether or not it has a good life. Squirrels do not know about atoms, or life, or death, or self-valuing, or any other concept at all, as far as I can see. I see no squirrel writing treatise on anything or making demands that it raise in stature of truth and being, it simply searches for nuts and stuff.

That is fine for the squirrel, yet is not fine for the human being. Why? Because we have the capacity and mighty responsibility to be more, we demand more, we suffer of ourselves, we question, and most importantly we fail. A squirrel cannot fail to be what it is; to your philosophical approach this is a sign of how squirrels are superior valuers than humans, yet to me it is a sign that humans are superior valuers to squirrels. The very fact that a human can error, lose his way, fall into illusion and falsity and depravity and death, proves our superiority over any other life-form that cannot do this. This is precisely why we have the great privilege and responsibility of philosophizing, of thinking, of emoting, of making determinations of right or wrong, true or false.

The more humans error and turn to goo, the more you can be sure that humanity is processing forward in its long, slow climb up the universal. Any positive step of responsibility and power-value must be opposed by a counter-substance in the depths, a substance of error, aversion, doubt, questioning, failure and illusion. Being is not given, it is created. And in order to create, may eggs must be broken.

I do not defend goo-humans, but I merely point out that the fact that there are goo-humans, and not goo-squirrels, is simply due to the fact that humans are actually capable of and required to aspire and to risk to greater heights of being and truth. We have more potential -- in fact we have so much potential that we can actually... fail.

No squirrel or cat actually risks its own being, it would have no way to even know such a thing is possible, let alone attempt it. The beauty of animal nature is that it is precisely what it is. Whereas the 'ugliness' of humanity is that it must actually become what it is, as Nietzsche would say. We have to actually invent and create our own being. Squirrels don't. And that is a fucking difficult process where many will fail. But the very fact that they fail is proof they are part of the attempt to succeed.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:21 pm


Quote :
t there are goo-humans, and not goo-squirrels

This is the strongest challenge you could have made. It is true - and yet precisely because there are goo humans, I take it upon me to separate myself nominally from them. I set a standard of non-goo-humans, and simply refuse to allow goo-humans in that category.

Now, if there are goo- and non-goo-humans, it may be there is a possible transition, as you suggest. I am not against this. Ive never seen it happen, but Id not be against it happening. But since I am convinced that self-valuing integrity is the bottom line, I have a hard time imagining how it can happen - how someone without integrity can acquire it. Like I say, ive never seen a single example of it. Ive not even seen anyone really try.

It would be interesting to try to list some humans that have moved from goo to integrity.
Please do not go near the idea that you would have once been goo, simply because you had ideas you no longer have. That is not at all what this is about - it is the capacity to increase, that requires integrity. And it is, it seems, a very rare capacity.

Also, squirrels do quite a lot more than gathering nuts - for example, they come to me, climb over my bike on to me, sit on me, run circles around me and give me ideas and visions somehow. They interact with me on a level that hardly any human is able to reach.




2

On the lack of integrity of the goo - People that actively support Clont, they are sick beings. They do the ugliest things you can imagine. They sacrifice their children for their "ideals" (sexual frustrations), they do all sorts of stuff that you'd have sickening aliens do in a B horror movie. The life path of a Clont supporter is just not actually a life path.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:22 pm

Sorry. I wasn't ignoring Y'all. I got a phone call from someone I needed to talk with.

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Your definition of the human as a potential to become something real, in the face of enormous conceptual adversity, is noble. It places the human as a standard that needs to be attained.

As such, I ask if you see any discrete boundary, a border between goo and non-goo; a point where a threshold  is sometimes crossed into humanity-proper.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:25 pm

Anyhow, this is a very emotionally charged topic and opinion weighs very strong.

I do try to respect others' opinion but I still hold to mine.

Therefore never get pregnant any you will never have the occasion to consider an abortion.

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:28 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Your definition of the human as a potential to become something real, in the face of enormous conceptual adversity, is noble. It places the human as a standard that needs to be attained.

As such, I ask if you see any discrete boundary, a border between goo and non-goo; a point where a threshold  is sometimes crossed into humanity-proper.

In truth, I don't consider the human animal any more important than any other animal on the planet. We all evolved in our own way and that's what life is about.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:30 pm

"As such, I ask if you see any discrete boundary, a border between goo and non-goo; a point where a threshold  is sometimes crossed into humanity-proper."

I will add that when I first talked to you about Kant and VO in 2011, you came across to me as the first fully integer discussion partner I had ever met.

I dont think humans need to be intellectually integer to be humans, emotional integrity is just as valid. Most integer humans I know are people passionately involved with their own, real values. Since the intellectual world is so perverted, these are usually rather simple minded people.

Simple minded people need to be intelligent in that simple way. Simple intelligences.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:37 pm

For example, this guy I shared an apartment with once, the son of the rune painter. He is truly a human, an example for all humanity as far as Im concerned.
He just lives a life of sublime quality, is the best cook I know, the strongest streetfighter Ive known, the sweetest friend, and has a really good taste in women, is extremely loyal to his parents, and just knows where he stands in every situation.
It is deeply moving to behold such a person when he runs into his limits and actually acknowledges them.
A very moving memory I cherish about humanity is when I was writing on a forum in 2003, and he asked what I was writing. I explained to him my argument, which was about the existence of god being dependent on the definition of god. He intently listened all the way through, took some time to come to himself again, and with a bit of cold sweat he said something like 'I can't even imagine being able to think that way, especially about god' -
which was the most honest answer Ive ever received from someone who didn't understand me. He actually appreciated the value of my power without being able to value its results. That was, of course, why he was my friend in the first place - god I love that guy. I promise you no feminist phrase is ever uttered in his presence. He just negates the idea that a woman could ever resemble a man.

I had a fireplace with a sword hanging above it these days and a bedroom separated by ricepaper sliding doors. The sword belonged to Sauwelios' father, I had taken it in a mushroom trip.




 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:49 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Your definition of the human as a potential to become something real, in the face of enormous conceptual adversity, is noble. It places the human as a standard that needs to be attained.

As such, I ask if you see any discrete boundary, a border between goo and non-goo; a point where a threshold  is sometimes crossed into humanity-proper.

In truth, I don't consider the human animal any more important than any other animal on the planet.  We all evolved in our own way and that's what life is about.

I consider the philosopher to be a remarkably important animal, first of all Ill have to note that I consider myself to be part of that category, and that category prescribes selfvaluing 'bias' to all life, so also must do so to itself - even though it really exempts itself by recognizing selfvaluing in all from the category of fully biased beings.

Ducks, I consider important. I thus don't eat ducks. Ravens are far more than merely instincts. They invariably appear in formation at my most prosperous thoughts, as most birds they operate on immediacy, they are communicating with a grid of events. Intelligence moves them.

My heart always leaps when I see small birds against the wind at the surf. Being.

Yes, humans can reach greater heights than most animals. But few do.
Capable and I agree here. Our approaches to that matter are different.
My approach includes taking animals as examples by their superior selfvaluing integrity.



Maybe one out of a hundred humans has a shot of surpassing animality. Maybe one in ten thousand manages. The task is to increase that number.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:54 pm

The Zodiac is an example of how man has used animals to increase his own integrity and selfknowledge.

There is no such thing as a "mere symbol".
If something is properly a symbol, it is alive. It uses ones being as its environment.
Like a cat -
cats thus work symbolically upon their owners lives. Pets do in general.
Caged pets thus point cages in psyches. Which I realize suddenly shouldn't warrant a judgment. Some things require a cage.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:02 pm

That place with he sword and the fire was a place of selfvaluing integrity. I had a great winter, I remember walking across the bridge up to the bar where my friend had identified the girl I had liked and danced with that summer, as I crossed it the Westertoren started to sound its bells, the wedding march, I kid you not, and as I looked on my watch it was 12:21 on the same date. As it happens it worked out, for a while only, during which I made a film about the man that had provided this environment, the zen painter, or rune teacher, 'the magicman, the santaclause of the subconscious'. It is this time period that i broke through the nazis grasp on Nietzsche and moved into a hell uninvented - with only the protection of one rune. That rune now shines silver on scarlet on my doorway. (birds)

All Ive ever learned is that standards are the only things that make sense, and that logic can depart from any standard whatsoever, and can not determine which is superior. Ultimately, even the philosopher has to ground himself in a particular, and that is often his downfall, as it is often not another human. This is my government of muses essentially, a ground for philosophers, and subjective judgments that are objectively better.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:10 pm

Pregnancy is beautiful.
Abortion is thus not.

These are my main standards.

Now, I realize humans will simply do what they will do, especially women.
This is their essence.
So I will just provide an environment where abortion is unlikely to be contemplated.
Or so I set my aim

My phenomenological studies as to what constitutes potential for experience aside, of course - these merely condition the degree of the judgment.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:38 pm

Fixed, your points are well taken by me and give me plenty to think about. As for a line between goo and non-goo as pertains to the capacity-possibility to ascend from goo to human, that's not something I've thought much about. I am thinking of it more along the lines of goo = unformed-ness like a child or teen who hasn't yet encountered the facts, thoughts, emotions and experiences that will eventually come to define him. I honestly think of adult-goo (SJWs etc.) as children, to me they never aged mentally-emotionally beyond a very young age. Their growth was retarded somehow at pre-adolescence, which isn't even accurate since I've known adolescents quite more intelligent and honest than these current pondscum such as the dufus who just ambushed Spicer for example.

I think what they lack is reality contact-- pain, real and deep suffering of oneself. Part of the value of empathy is that when we feel the pain of another we are actually suffering with them; we have accepted them into our values-sphere thus their pain is also our own pain. Self-knowledge results. Goo has no real compassion.

So I guess I arrive at the first glimmer of an answer to your question: the fact of a person having real compassion and empathy for another, structurally-psychologically speaking this would seem to separate true goo from mere child-goo that could grow with increased vital experiences.

In my online chats I do encounter these types of people fairly often. They "mean well", they have a degree of heart and soul, but their ideas and concrete feelings-responses to things are highly warped. Many of these same people vote for Clontin simply out of that warped-ness. I don't think they can entirely be judged just by this fact.

As for what i asid about squirrels, I have no ill will to them or other animals whom I respect, including cats and dogs. I like them, they are great, they may possess deep wisdom in the ways you mention. I just put more emphasis on thinking, ideas and language than you do. That's probably another primary difference between our perspectives.

As for abortion, I cannot abandon my central idea here: to choose to abort a developing gestating human life is insane. Period. I can't draw a line anywhere in that process of development, all such lines seem arbitrary to me therefore I reject the concept of such a line. I honestly cannot fathom the depreciation and goo-ness needed to have a life growing inside you, a life that is in process of becoming another human being and which in the future will be a human being, and just scraping it out and throwing it in the trash... why? Because it's 'inconvenient'. Fuck those people who can do that and feel nothing. To me they are the real sub-human trash.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:28 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Fixed Cross wrote:
Your definition of the human as a potential to become something real, in the face of enormous conceptual adversity, is noble. It places the human as a standard that needs to be attained.

As such, I ask if you see any discrete boundary, a border between goo and non-goo; a point where a threshold  is sometimes crossed into humanity-proper.

In truth, I don't consider the human animal any more important than any other animal on the planet.  We all evolved in our own way and that's what life is about.

I consider the philosopher to be a remarkably important animal, first of all Ill have to note that I consider myself to be part of that category, and that category prescribes selfvaluing 'bias' to all life, so also must do so to itself - even though it really exempts itself by recognizing selfvaluing in all from the category of fully biased beings.

Ducks, I consider important. I thus don't eat ducks. Ravens are far more than merely instincts. They invariably appear in formation at my most prosperous thoughts, as most birds they operate on immediacy, they are communicating with a grid of events. Intelligence moves them.

My heart always leaps when I see small birds against the wind at the surf. Being.

Yes, humans can reach greater heights than most animals. But few do.
Capable and I agree here. Our approaches to that matter are different.
My approach includes taking animals as examples by their superior selfvaluing integrity.

Maybe one out of a hundred humans has a shot of surpassing animality. Maybe one in ten thousand manages. The task is to increase that number.

I don't have a problem with anyone disagreeing with me here. It is, after all, one human to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Abortion   Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:32 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:


As for abortion, I cannot abandon my central idea here: to choose to abort a developing gestating human life is insane. Period. I can't draw a line anywhere in that process of development, all such lines seem arbitrary to me therefore I reject the concept of such a line. I honestly cannot fathom the depreciation and goo-ness needed to have a life growing inside you, a life that is in process of becoming another human being and which in the future will be a human being, and just scraping it out and throwing it in the trash... why? Because it's 'inconvenient'. Fuck those people who can do that and feel nothing. To me they are the real sub-human trash.

I understand that and agree that you have the right to feel the way you do. There are many who agree with you.

But then there are other perspectives and I know that there at many who agree with my perspective.

Values.

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