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 Wreaking crisis.

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Sauwelios
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PostSubject: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:39 am

"Though they were always a threat, the exceptions were nevertheless esteemed because they were useful for the common good of the tribe as its fearless leaders and defenders. But in contemporary Europe they are no longer needed, so they no longer have to be tolerated; the 'ultimate consequences' of herd morality render them superfluous. For the herd to become 'autonomous' means that it no longer needs superior leaders." (Lampert, Leo Strauss and Nietzsche, page 74.)

We must therefore wreak conditions and situations on contemporary Europe in which it will need superior leaders again.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:21 am

Yes, but remember that these leaders must also be chosen by their own people. This is what happened with Trump, you cannot simply separate the "weak masses" absolutely from the "strong leaders", because ultimately the masses must select and value the leader: the leader must be a Sign of that society which he leads, of 'the people' in the most general sense. Otherwise you don't actually even have a society at all, not in the ontological-epistemological sense.

The implication of what Lampert said is that things need to get very bad before the masses will value the strong leader again. That is always the case, because when things are not very bad then the masses are essentially leading themselves by electing weaker and feckless leaders in order to maintain the current status quo. That is rational, until the status quo ends up breaking down, as it eventually always does. Imagine you have a society in which conditions are quite good for most people; in that case "most people" do not want a 'strong' leader who will mix things up, the people rather will simply wish to continue with status quo, and rightly so in this case, if indeed conditions are favorable to them. Thus the people govern themselves by failing to elect strong leaders who are "exceptions" to the current paradigms.

But when things get bad for most people, then as Lampert is saying someone is needed to shake things up. Status quo is no longer acceptable or useful in a democratic sense. And "the people" have only one way to directly govern themselves, in such a situation -- they elect the strong, exceptional leader. 'The people' govern themselves (society, in the general sense, self-governs) by who they elect by popular majority and such an elected leader is merely the Sign of the people's will and need, as is very clear in the case of Trump.

There is only one very great evil that can thwart this situation: when 'the people', qua statistical average person in society, no longer possess the ability to select their leader, when there is no democratic process or when the democratic process has become ineffective (hacked, in our case). Once that happens, political leadership is no longer a Sign of the larger general society's will and need, the leader does not express anything with regard to the society and people whom he actually leads; there is no direct ontological connection between leadership and society, because remember that the only real purpose of democratic elections is to make sure that whoever is selected to lead is (more or less, as best as possible given the range of choices of leaders) a representative of the statistical average individual and self-value of that society (and certainly the purpose of democratic elections is not to produce the 'best' person to lead or to make sure that the 'smartest' ideas are governing political choices). In such cases of a lack or failure of democratic process, a society loses its ontic self-valuing coherence, becomes structurally irrational, and is destined for ruin.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:38 am

Democratic process only has value in binding the upper leadership of a society to the rest of society at large, thereby forming the onto-epistemic coherency of the society and culture as a whole, allowing that society and culture to express itself qua leadership, and therefore giving it more power and value-power over time. Such societies will tend to survive far longer than societies without democratic process, which fact history bears out and continues to bear our.

Leadership does not simply appear out of a vacuum, out of nowhere; leadership comes from the larger substance, meaning and value-power of that society and culture which leadership leads. The society-culture produces from itself 'a leader' to the degree that 1) there is onto-epistemic coherence (democratic Sign-representation [condition of the form, or the structural condition]) and 2) there is enough actual substance, meaning, vitality, spirit, history, and self-value in the society-culture to actualize such a process in a meaningful, real way [condition of the content, or the specific condition].

In other words you need both a society that is set up properly to allow for Sign-representation, and you need the people of that society to actually have real value, history, culture, value-power, instinct, will, drive, vitality, intelligence, access to meaning, future-vision, self-valuing, strength of character and of mind, etc., and remember that "the people of that society" only need to have this relative to the statistical average person, since that is precisely what democratic election process is going to produce via the selection of political leadership.

Economy exists to allow for the exceptions, those people who are superior to that statistical average, to continue to go on and produce larger good and value in the society. But you still need a mechanism for representing the entire society as a whole, as a single entity and self-valuing; that mechanism is a functional democratic process, and that is its only function, to guarantee the link between the statistical average person and the leadership which represents it. All else, all further exceptions and cases, fill in the details and round out the corners, build economic or culture or political influence and value (for indeed, even though the political leader is the Sign of those people whom he leads, in the most abstract sense, the political leader is still going to make decisions based on his own calculus, information, and the small group of people and interests that he surrounds himself with. That is fine, and the whole idea that the elected leader should make decisions based on what "the people" want is absurd. Decision-making is not a democratic process, truth is not a democratic process. Democracy rather is there to select the person who will then go on to make proper decisions by other means).

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:08 am

As long as the herd believes it has a say in how government is conducted they will continue to accept the current government. And it doesn't require that they actually have any power, only that they believe they do.

It will require chaos before any changes are made. Even Trump cannot change the mentality of the people.

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:53 am

As pertains to the vote in the Netherlands, what I said here,

    Leadership does not simply appear out of a vacuum, out of nowhere; leadership comes from the larger substance, meaning and value-power of that society and culture which leadership leads. The society-culture produces from itself 'a leader' to the degree that 1) there is onto-epistemic coherence (democratic Sign-representation [condition of the form, or the structural condition]) and 2) there is enough actual substance, meaning, vitality, spirit, history, and self-value in the society-culture to actualize such a process in a meaningful, real way [condition of the content, or the specific condition].


We can be certain that one of three things has occurred: 1) the Dutch people actually value the current status quo enough to vote for the same feckless leadership they currently have (this is not likely), or 2) the general-formal condition of Dutch society qua statistically representation (democracy) has been rendered ineffective (either by hacking, voter suppression and/or voter fraud, or mass campaigns of disinformation and manipulation of propaganda), or 3) the specific-content condition of democracy has been rendered ineffective by the statistical average Dutch voter no longer possessing adequate intellect, meaning, vitality, interest, culture, will and self-value necessary to be capable of making meaningful political determinations of value.

In fact all three of these, or a combination of two of them, could also be the case.

But I hold to what I said about the globalist establishment of neolibs-neocons, that they have learned their lesson with Brexit and Trump, and will do whatever it takes to prevent that (rational national self-value of the people) from occurring again.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:55 am

And it goes without saying that voting for status quo right now will only continue to make things worse in the Netherlands and elsewhere in Europe.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:01 am

The status quo simply already involves far too many muslims of sometimes 4 generations to be able to do what Wilders does and not cause civil war. He has zero respect or tolerance for these people, and that means they arent logically able to work with him. These people are largely Dutch citizens.

More importantly, and as Ive been outlining, Wilders offers no economic agenda. You cant elect someone like that. Not as an economic powerhouse and central world-economical hub like Holland.

Holland is historically built on 2 things: lack of ideology, and intelligent investing. This is the path that lies before them now. There is no perspective on any kind of psychologically interesting politics - it will all be management. The main issue is in fact that Erdogan has been bitch-slapped, something even Trump wouldnt dare to do.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:16 am

In fact Ill go so far as to say this: fuck the Dutch middle and lower classes. I'm only interested in the upper classes, as these are with the Greeks and Venetians the original geniuses of the Capitalist West.

There is no such thing as a moral Dutchman. The best of us are thinkers, beyond morality.
There will never be an intellectually worthy political movement. There never has been after Thorbecke, not besides the ongoing development of the economic model that formed us.

This is where we differ from France, and where all of Europe differs from superior France. France doesn't give a shit about efficiency. It only counts quality. Still, Le Pen may well not be qualitatively supreme enough to lead them out of the EU, which should become a Dutch-German apparatus, a monstrously powerful economical machine, a Nietzschean apparatus in the hands of the relatively interesting wealthy classes.

The quasi individual European lower and middle classes will thrive and "be happy", and among them tolerate actual individuals.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:33 pm

America's greatness is that she unleashes everyone's potential, not just the "wealth upper class capitalists". What is that capitalism? Basically it is investment. Doubling down on existing productive process, the black hole of globalized capital... so what? Without real values, without earthly values then investment is just... China. Or perhaps... The Netherlands, or Switzerland perhaps, Sweden... begging to administer the capital of other nations. Just like China, a bitch nation.

Fuck that. Abandoning the "lower and middle classes", so called, is a death sentence. America understands this, and from what I can see France also understands it. A culture structurally oriented around the "common man", around real. fucking. values.

So I say: fuck "management". I say: Truth, or nothing.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:40 pm

Maybe Wilder doesn't have coherent 'policies', maybe he isn't "polished", but at least he stands for the common self-valuing, if only implicitly. At least as far as I can tell.

Real politics embodies and realizes that of which it is a Sign. Existing praxis will stand up and alongside that, to the degree it is honest. Or maybe it just capitulates to existing politically correct dogma, mere image; entropy, apathy, appeasing the liberal-left socialist narrative to score cheap political points in the corporate media.

To that I say: no fucking way does it represent philosophy.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:44 pm

Lauren Southern is more real media than any fucking CNN, or SBS6.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:46 pm


 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:39 pm

I wish Wilders (pronounce Will-ders) was anything like people from other countries seem to think he is.
That of all people Wilders would be philosophical or self-valuing properly is an illusion.
With policy I mean, values, will, a plan, a reason to want to govern.
Since he proved to have none of that, I accept him happily as just someone who speaks unpopular things, which is good, but that's it. He doesnt weant power, doesnt reach it, hasnt warranted it in the past.

To me, someone who is elected and then shits on his electorate, as he did before, is definitely not as proper self-valuing. Nor is lying abourt your enemy anything close to philosophical.

Unfortunately Trump is as yet the only "populist" on this planet who has ever not been a douchebag when it came down to it.


Further, Holland is (allegedly) the biggest investor in the US, makes only first rate products, has nothing to do with China. It has 17 million people, about a percent of China's population, and there is no poverty.

We've always been a hub, meaning we regulate the worlds economy. Yes, we have culture, but Ive only ever met one foreigner that tried to learn our language, and without that, obviously it is impossible to know the first thing, to get inside the Dutch ultra subtle and layered mind. I dont like that we're being judged on such a basis as that Wilders would be philosophical, or something like that, and that anything else we may vote for is not. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

On the other hand, it is a cool experience to have the world weigh in and comment. It shows how deep the Netherlands really are, how much is going on, how complex and subtle it is, and how hard it will be for other powers to control us.

Rutte has shown that he is strong against Islam, and no matter how many people continue to think it is Wilders who is strong, Ive seen my PM stand up to the most banal and dangerous bully of the world, as the first western leader. Tables have turned, Erdogan suddenly realizes he's a joke to much of the world. We can be assured that will radically sabotage his long term plans.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:48 pm

If there will ever be a worthy anti-Islamic movement in Europe, itll consist of people all of whom are now unknown in that context.
Le Pen is not noble. She is necessary, and France needs to exit the EU, but she can at best be the wedge.

It absolute nonsense to compare any European nationalist politician to Trump. None of them has any of the qualities that made Trump great.
Trump is a New York streetkid who made it to the most powerful office in the world. There is no possible parallel on the planet. He's just already accomplished what needed to be done. There doesn't even need to be a European Trump - Trump is European Trump. He's the global Trump. Trump has trumped and dethroned globalism. Rutte will follow suit, he will have to, he can not entirely disregard the direction the wind is blowing. And that's probably why he was the first to smack Erdogan around a bit - as a descendant of successful pirates, he is extremely keen on changes in the wind, and knows how to imrpvise on sudden gusts. It's not a hollow metaphor. All sailingis "opportunistic" - French do indeed not really sail. Most people in VVD-land have a sailboat, it's the basic sign of status.

France is without question a greater Humanity than Holland. All wealthy Dutch have second homes in France. No one will deny he looks up to France. It's a feeling of pride to look up to the nation of nations.

The Statue of Liberty is French, Wallstreet and Brooklyn are Dutch, the US is a mixture of Greatness and Opportunism. It is thence more powerful than either separately.

The EU, following that logic, could become a power the scope of the US, if France secedes.
A process of re invention of currency and taxes begins, a reorientation of money on value.  
This is Trumps bottom line, why he fits into Value Cosmology as a kind of web buildings spider, refreshing valencies.
Allt he rest of the world can become is value to these valencies.

Ironically, Trump has, by defeating the Globalists, actually brought all of the globes under one central signifier, and thereby laid the foundation for a real Global order, of independent nations with active populations.

Holland grew to the the first globally spread out empire being practical, conscientious and welcoming to rough strangers willing to work hard. Islam is not part of this, but Arabs and Turks are. And they believe - Rutte doesnt give a shit what they believe, he will now have to comply with the demand and repress further islamization, but he will not antagonize the actual people in their vulnerable hearts. He's aware of consequences, and that's why he's elected - he is a 'mere politician' and acts the part. Cynical? In cynical times, yes. But not deranged. He is not Socialist, his movement is absolutely not responsible for islamization.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:21 pm

I realize my tone is not balanced with what Ive written in the past. The world is changed.
Before Erdogan did what he did, the world was in his hands.
He had no idea Rutte would have the gall to treat his ministers like petty criminals.
I had no conception of that either. He impressed me, and it has been dawning on me that he felt he could afford it due to Trump.

The world is changed. I feel it in the water. I feel it in the earth. I smell it in the air. - Mark Rutte.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:35 pm

Note: I wrote the following while I could not refresh my memory on what I had read earlier today; I was sitting at a computer on which forum sites have been blocked but webmail (in which I write my drafts) has not. For multiple reasons, I've decided not to edit my text now that I can refresh my memory again.

::

I agree with "Thrasymachus" that only democratic societies can last only in a sense: namely, that in order to last a society must have democratic elements. It must, however, not be a democracy in the strict sense, because then it will degenerate into an ochlocracy as quickly as an aristocracy in the strict sense degenerates into an oligarchy and a monarchy in the strict sense degenerates into a tyranny. In fact, it must have aristocratic and monarchical elements as well as democratic ones: it must be a mixed regime.

I agree with Fixed Cross about the middle and lower classes only insofar as class is determined solely by capital. Thus a friend of mine once argued that, whereas the US has only one standard, the NL has two: intellect as well as capital; thus it is as much socialist as capitalist. One can choose to live in relatively great poverty here without being despised as trailer trash or the like. (I myself probably live below the poverty line at the moment, yet I wouldn't consider myself lower class.)

I do not (yet) share your admiration for Trump. However, I may hail him even though I do not consider him a superior leader: namely, as a leader who can make things worse. I think the Lampert quote above expresses the crux of Nietzschean political--if not religious--philosophy: yes, leaders will always need some kind of public support, and this is why superior leaders require sufficiently critical circumstances. The circumstances of, say, people in old American mining towns have become sufficiently critical that they voted en masse for Trump; but in order that some future Übertrump might come to power, Trump will have to make things even worse: at least as bad for an even greater number of people.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:44 pm

Sauwelios wrote:
I agree with Fixed Cross about the middle and lower classes only insofar as class is determined solely by capital. Thus a friend of mine once argued that, whereas the US has only one standard, the NL has two: intellect as well as capital; thus it is as much socialist as capitalist. One can choose to live in relatively great poverty here without being despised as trailer trash or the like. (I myself probably live below the poverty line at the moment, yet I wouldn't consider myself lower class.)

Do you mean that the intellect belongs to socialism?

I think that since Socialism is fundamentally illogical, as it does not count with WtP or valuing, that it is ultimately hostile to the intellect.
Not sure if I'm addressing your point here.

I any case I do not think poverty exists in the Netherlands. Debt-slavery, yes - most university graduates are owned by banks, but the state takes care that such people have to eat and dont experience the danger of death by hunger and weather.

It seems like you consider the main disadvantage of poverty that one is despised for it, rather than the practical condition of having trouble supporting ones life. The two are both factors, of course, both pertaining to selfvaluing. Especially if one despises oneself for being poor.

Quote :
I do not (yet) share your admiration for Trump. However, I may hail him even though I do not consider him a superior leader: namely, as a leader who can make things worse. I think the Lampert quote above expresses the crux of Nietzschean political--if not religious--philosophy: yes, leaders will always need some kind of public support, and this is why superior leaders require sufficiently critical circumstances.

Am I correct in reading that your standard-value here is the leader, rather than the nation and people he leads?
In which way does this leader relate to what he leads? Does he simply use the populace and nation to satisfy his own WtP?

In my eyes Trump is here to lead the American people back to wealth and prosperity, and he is doing that with verve.
But as great forces are hell bent on bringing him down, it is likely that the country is still going to experience major upheavals and maybe civil war.

Would this be desirable to you, to the end of allowing what youd see as a greater leader to arise?

Quote :
The circumstances of, say, people in old American mining towns have become sufficiently critical that they voted en masse for Trump; but in order that some future Übertrump might come to power, Trump will have to make things even worse: at least as bad for an even greater number of people.

He is bringing back capital and labor to the country at breakneck pace, it'll be hard for him to make things worse - but his enemies will not stop trying to destroy the country's legislative, social and financial foundations, and they possess trillions, so I wont say that a great catastrophe is definitely not going to happen.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:58 pm

As an aside -
Ive been watching this leader of the muslim-led party DENK today, and I am actually surprised by how rational this man is, and how utterly adamant on supporting equal rights for women and also gays.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wkh9lhZerI

This might actually become a real influence.
I hear they are already the largest party in the Westelijke Tuinsteden, i.e. "Little Morocco".

Ive always hoped this of Islam - that it would become a new moral impulse, where all of that is dead in Christianity - his points against pedophilia are welcome.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:28 pm

Before I reply to Fixed Cross, first a little addendum to my last post (I wrote this before reading FC's last two posts).

::

There is of course some connection between capital and intellect, material and spiritual wealth: namely, that those who have plenty have in theory more time to spare. But in this context it is useful to check out aphorism 329 of Nietzsche's Gay Science (note that "Indian" here means "Native American"):

http://nietzsche.holtof.com/reader/friedrich-nietzsche/the-gay-science/aphorism-329-quote_eb99f0921.html

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:53 pm

I would note that, even where this observation is taken at face value, which I don't tend to do when someone does not speak from direct experience, since the 1920's the contempt for enjoyment in the US has disappeared.

This man was instrumental in turning the US, in his own words, from a Need- to a Desire-culture.



More:
https://vimeo.com/95699538
https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/Bernays_Propaganda_in_english_.pdf

But I would also contend that the vast frontier never allowed for the narrow-chested Lutheran attitude that Nietzsche attributes to the American psyche.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:04 pm

Desire is higher up in the value-hierarchy than is need, I would say.

This is true precisely because desire is more conditional, ephemeral, transitory, fleeting, "metaphysical" than is need.

Desire, when compared to need, is more of an idea. And obviously, more of an ideal also.

The danger is when desires are allowed to subvert needs; that is tantamount to destroying the foundation for the sake of the house, in the end you lose both. And not all needs are very obvious at all.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:54 pm

I meant to hold off comments to Sauwelios, for a while, but I'm drinking so that's not going to happen I guess.


My issues with it are similar to what Fixed just wrote; wtp based in what? Is the UberTrump some kind of God, Overman totally justified without any regard to the society and people whom he leads? Of course not.

Overman interpreted as the value of leadership for its own sake is no different from the impulse to power for its own sake, namely just more banality. Anti-philosophy of a tyrant. Democracy is not perfect, but it wins--- why? Because humanity itself is the highest concern proper for truth, for the philosopher.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:59 pm

Socialism is almost entirely devoid of truth-content, all it can do is keep slowly dying.

Now with the death of Marx, the battles are properly Nietzschean. Namely, "what is capital, capitalism; what is the individual, what are its values and why?" Any Marxist purview, which sets the category of the group over that of the individual, is just Lutherian-Kantian shit. It can be allowed to subsist only at the lowest dregs of culture, where it belongs; quite fitting then that the Bernie-Clontin-Obozos of the world can only subsist by robbing capital from others who actually make it.

 

___________
"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:12 pm


 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Wreaking crisis.   Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:26 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
Desire is higher up in the value-hierarchy than is need, I would say.

Yes, I realized here first that Bernays did us a favor.

I vehemently disagree with Sauwelios' formulations, as I often do when he introduces his terms of a subject in which I am invested, and yet he has already allowed me to advance my own thinking precisely by being so extremely contrary to it - he brings up fecund points, deep funk in fact, but he has not worked through these points from our perspectives.

I have rather forcefully invited him back here, and during the discussion that invitation prompted, various strong disagreements played themselves out and forced me to formulate myself better.

I do not expect us to reach agreements - S is a sharpening stone to me. Or a reason to heat up the iron and strike some well aimed blows.

Philosophizing with the Hammer! I always carry one near Sauwelios.
The challenge is to control my indignation, and to see it for its source; my values.
A doctor putting his finger on the sore spot. Not in me, but in the as yet lacking body of philosophy, of world-knowledge.
I am suspecting that the reasons that allow Sauwelios to draw certain conclusions, are the very reasons i went into philosophy. These reasons have to do with the abyss between every context and the next.
We can see how VO amends the abyss, sows it shut, haha. Self-valuing logic is precisely what happens in the tree of life under "Daath" - literally: knowledge - esoterically: knowledge of the moment, reality disclosed to itself, power.

Nietzsche's thoughts on America are few and far in between. The most relevant passage to my mind is The Blissful isles

"The figs fall from the trees, they are good and sweet; and in falling the red skins of them break. A north wind am I to ripe figs.
Thus, like figs, do these doctrines fall for you, my friends: imbibe now their juice and their sweet substance! It is autumn all around, and clear sky, and afternoon.
Lo, what fullness is around us! And out of the midst of superabundance, it is delightful to look out upon distant seas.
Once did people say God, when they looked out upon distant seas; now, however, have I taught you to say, Superman."

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/V_3q1VTL7KY/maxresdefault.jpg

"Yea, I have drawn the conclusion; now, however, doth it draw me.—"

 

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" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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