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 The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)

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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2018 5:29 pm

The world does not give a fuck about our private affairs unless we go into politics. And even then it often doesn't. Privacy is a feeling. Lol. I know that is evil. true privacy still exists and is a privilege, I hope to attain it someday. Ive never had it though.

"You aint no kind of man if ya aint got land"
-Delmar
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2018 7:12 pm

we disagree very much on these issues.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2018 8:59 pm

Good, I would actually say. I would like to be on your side on this. I come from a much more cynical perspective.

If privacy could be guaranteed, that would be great, but as I said I haven't ever had it. Even when I was little our phones were tapped on account of the Communism. I just... don't see a clear path to securing privacy of data considering it is so structurally open. I think thats the problem with telecommunication as it was called. Encryption is only ontologically reliable if you are the one to encrypt it. Data-osmosis is inevitable and in the long run that just destroys all cellular boundaries. As is the case now.

What I do see is how blockchain can be used for networks that offer privacy, true one to one correspondence and transference.
Im very much for that, it is the reason I was into bitcoin in the first place, but I think privacy would still just extend to that medium because the tool itself provides the means to privacy. Where the internet as it is built in general is practically always in the hands of the highest bidder, be it in funds or violence - in a world where war is more rule than exception.
The effort of securing the data would be very noble, but the keys would still end up under the hands of arbitrary professionals.
Rather invent a protocol that structurally disallows for general access, which can only be accessed instance by instance, and these instances follow from each other in fundamentally particular ways. New terminals need to be built, all our hardware is useless, we need terminals with pure, single key encryption, no hubs of any sort, only a chaos of addresses, lets say structured like the irrational numbers.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeWed Nov 14, 2018 9:04 pm

To secure this right to privacy one would have to secure the technology that secures the power to keep things private. I do believe that might is right in the sense that the second amendment is what separates the US from European nations, except I think Switzerland, which is by far the most powerful nation here anyway.

If the populace simply has no physical means to defend its rights, these rights are in ontological terms moot. Im not saying they should do the work of defending these rights alone, but if they can't even expect to defend them in theory, there is a real discrepancy between power and ideal.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 7:37 am

in my view it’s because these tyrant humans are shit. they actually want to spy on each other and would actually do that, they have no great principles or values. they are mere opportunistic animals trapped in a will to power until one day they die. is quite pathetic.

the US is special because it elevates principle over pragmatism, it actually establishes values as such and then forces them into society as law. and the entire premise of those values is the fundamental meaning and importance of the individual, the person and his natural rights which are established by reason (by actually having principles and not being a psychopath who sees other people as means to his own end) as well as the fundamental danger of government and if anyone who would be a tyrant over you.

it’s obvious that someone spying in on you like Big Brother is tyranny. it’s obvious that someone who would spy on you against your will and for his own ends is a psychopath. and it’s obvious that such people act not on principle but on pathological momentary will to power opportunism and lack anything like a self-value. so fuck those people.

i won’t build a world based on the premise that people cannot govern themselves. to me that is what you’re suggesting. you seem to be defending all forms of tyranny as “natural” and then saying well people have to find a way to deal with that; i reject that, because tyranny is not natural to a species like human being, to a ratioral reasoning creature whose mind is structured according to principle over pragmatism. the US constitution does not say that tyranny is a natural state, it says that the people have natural fundamental rights and it is good and natural for the people to govern themselves, while also admitting that tyrants are also a fact and so uses the power of law to guard against that. but capitulating to a view that every evil irrational thing, every unprincipled expression of a mere opportunistic will to power is just the natural state of things is indeed cynical and i believe a very false view of human nature.

again, there is no reason why technologies need to be build according to tyrannical logics. the only reason this seems “necessary” is because you seem to have adopted a view that tyranny is natural and necessary. it isn’t. it is an aberrant irrational and pathological excess, a weakness and error. there are reasons why tyrants keep gaining power, and we should talk about that, find ways to address that problem head on. but i’ll never concede that such aberrations and sick persons represent any kind of norm or natural state. and to acquiesce to technologies designed with their insanity in mind and at the root of such tech would be a huge mistake.

i know someone who is a programmer, we talked about ISP privacy and figured out how it’s quite possible for ISP’s to shuffle your data packets from computer A to computer B without looking inside those packets. it’s the same with shipping a package through UPS. they could easily open it, look inside, and close it up again, but you expect they won’t do that because that’s a tyrannical act against you. also it would be illegal. so why is it ok when ISP’s do it? it isn’t ok. it’s the same fucking principle, and it would be easy enough to design systems that detect such packet intrusions and alert the shipper of those packets. it would be even easier to simply make it illegal to open people’s data packets, like it would be illegal for UPS to open your physical packages.

it comes down to the issue of ownership. you own your data, just like you own your physical packages.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 8:29 am

there is a list of principles that sit at the heart of human consciousness, principles as logical constructs from which ontologies and existentias build. one of those is what we articulate as the right to privacy. the right to privacy is an extension of the requirements of mind, that we cannot think of have s coherent and flourishing, free internal conscience and mind without the privacy of our own thoughts to themselves. the presence of another introducing into our personal space disturbs that space. any such presence must be agreed upon by us, or else it represents an irrational intrusion that warps the very being of what consciousness and life are.

a right to property is connected to that. you own your body, your mind, your actions (from this comes the idea of self-responsibility) because these are naturally and by definition your own, since quite literally you are them. likewise and with how we’ve elaborated logic of capitalism you need clear owners of property in order for property to be managed effectively. lack of ownership or diffuse unclear ownership leads to ruin of the thing in question. and from all this also comes the irrationality of theft.

then we get to the principle of the consent of the governed. this is probably the most fundamental of them. the idea that the right and justice of rulership comes naturally from the consent of those who are ruled. what this does is elevate the people to a position of needing to govern themselves, of needing to be capable of that, responsible. the responsibility here links to the responsibility under the concept of ownership, which also then links to the responsibility underlining the right to privacy, and you have a complex fractal structure existing as pure logic and ontologic from which come fractal tectonics that lead to the creation of better people, better societies, better life. a more rational, sane, complete and comprehensive picture of life. that’s what human being is, at its fundament: striving for this most elevated paradigm.

this is the earth, this is it’s TRUE nature. not some mere contest of wills and powers, not some arbitrary opportunism of psychopathic insect-minded secret society assholes. tyrants are tyrants, are tyrants, it doesn’t change. only the forms of their fucking bullshit change, and it’s like Aristotle said, those who seek power over men do so only because they have no power over themselves. because they cannot engage themselves in the conquest of truths and elevating upward upon the continuum of being, because they are broken fucked up creatures that truth has cast out, so all that is left to them is to reify the nature of the brutal animal and pretend like this can substitute for a lack of human nature, which of course it cannot. truth laughs at such mere creatures, every thing they do, every horror they cause, is a joke. i mean that literally. obviously not a joke to their victims, but a joke nonetheless and from the vantage of truth and the future.

principled human nature is fixed and can only grow from its existent base layer tectonics. truth is truth. A=A.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 8:48 am

we respond to these principles implicitly, intuitively, they are deep in our and as our unconscious structure of mind. and these principles themselves link up together in the ways i mentioned above. so what is a person who doesn’t respond to these principles, doesn’t feel them or ignores them? a sub-human creature. someone without a “soul”. a regression to pre-human, a tyrant over himself and therefore over others too, someone who can’t even manage his own most basic relation to truth in and as consciousness which is precisely what consciousness is to begin with, namely edified reality.

the nature of tyranny can be encapsulated in a single word: cancer.

an error, a program malfunction, a virus-like reproducing cellular damage totally disconnected from and turned against its host body. so obviously you can see how i’ll never take any such tyrannical acts or people as if they indicate anything natural or necessary or good. they are quite literally MAL-FUNCTIONS in the human-existentia substance.

for some reason christianity happened to bring man closest to a clear articulation of the deep principles of consciousness, and then christianity led to America which is the nation with the most clear expression of these principles. which is as Parodites said, minimal government that exists only to keep the people safe and secure their rights by upholding basic rational law so the people can actually, finally be free and so THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES can create life and culture. so it’s no wonder how all world culture is American culture, it’s no wonder America is the greatest place on earth and everyone fucking knows it. it’s also no wonder why the tyrants of the world all want to destroy both christianity and America, since both as i said indicate the closest to developing and instantiating the deep tectonic base of principled rational mind, the structure of life itself.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 10:31 am

Markets are much lower this week, after the democrats won the house. Very predictable.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 10:46 am

I guess I just don't see how, if these are fundamental principles, humans tend to deviate from them.
To me, a fundamental principle is something which is always the case.

Since we see this notion of "principle" so fundamentally differently, it is inevitable that we disagree on the nature of reality.
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Defenders of the Earth wrote:
Markets are much lower this week, after the democrats won the house. Very predictable.
Yes, this is why I sold most of my shares before the elections.
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PostSubject: Re: The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2)   The Analytic Impossibility of Globalism Until Value Ontology Is Implemented as All-Law (2) - Page 35 Icon_minitimeThu Nov 15, 2018 11:13 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
I guess I just don't see how, if these are fundamental principles, humans tend to deviate from them.
To me, a fundamental principle is something which is always the case.

Since we see this notion of "principle" so fundamentally differently, it is inevitable that we disagree on the nature of reality.

It is because these principles are embedded unconsciously, very deeply and indirectly, and require rational articulation to become dominant enough to overcome the logics of the natural world which are indeed largely based in 'opportunistic will to power'.

Reason exists in animals too, but it is reason based on a ground of will to power. If we are talking about reason based instead on facts, on for example the facts of the nature of oneself as such and such a kind of being, and philosophically speaking what best moves that being upward upon the continuum of being toward higher more comprehensive and less error-ridden, less harmful and limiting paradigms. The most delicate things take the most careful and long gestation periods to flourish, and they remain very delicate. There are more weeds than flowers, for example.

We live in the shadow of ourselves, the deeper nature is receded from us. Those principles that I outlined, namely what we call privacy, what we call property, and what we call consent of the governed, are good and true ideas, but you can see historically how there has been very very significant pressure against these ideas appearing and flourishing in the world. To me this is easy to understand, because we humans emerged from the natural world where such principles themselves are very implicit, almost totally collapsed into themselves. Yes even animals, all life really, operates based on some variation of these principles, which isnt hard to ascertain if we look at these other species. But to articulate them in language, rationally and as ideas, and to reform societies and psychologies in their terms enough to overcome the immediacy and reactivity of "do what feels best immediately" and "use everything as a means to my own ends", which are principles of the natural world that also govern life, is very difficult.

I don't want to suppress the higher-order principles in favor of the lower-order ones. And I also don't want to refuse or erase the lower-order ones either, I see how all layers of the tectonics are stacking up in complex ways that allows every stage and level to exist in a kind of resonant harmony with the entire structure. So for example we can work to uphold the three principles I mentioned while not sacrificing the two lower-order principles of nature I just mentioned. Because if we ignore the ground, it will not go away but return in new ways to thwart our efforts.

Tyrants act on the lower layers only, they ignore things like the importance and value of privacy, property, consent of the governed; individual rights, freedom, maximized for the most people as possible given all effective circumstances. And I still agree with Aristotle as to the nature of the tyrant of men. I do indeed see it as a cancer. Cancers exist, that does not mean there is no such thing as health; in fact the cancer is a sign of the fact of health, and that health is the prevailing primary condition, of which cancer is a derivative deviation.

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Humans do not deviate from these principles, in general most people follow them to the best of their ability but within a larger negotiation of many other factors including the lower-order natural principles and basically just conditional accidental imposing circumstances and needs. But mainly people value themselves, family, the fact others are not intruding on their lives against their own consent, their retaining ability to dispose of their property according to how they wish to do that, and not being enslaved by someone who doesn't give a fuck about them.

All of human history is about these principles, and most people quite naturally oppose their violation. But most people are also unable to articulate what they are doing with regard to all this, so they can become very confused and end up acting contrary to the principles which are in fact embedded in and as themselves, so they act basically in self-contradictory ways, like leftists who claim to value freedom but act against freedom.

Another factor is convenience. It is convenient for me to use technology that was produced by slaves in China. I don't like that this is how my tech was produced, but I have very little option but to use it. But this fact of convenience does not justify how the technology was made. This is just another contradiction. So I believe in working to expose such contradictions and work to improve them over time, to make things more rational and consistent and not violate essential principles as much as possible. Obviously I do not believe in utopia and I know perfection is impossible, so it is a gradual gain over long periods of time.
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Fixed Cross wrote:
Defenders of the Earth wrote:
Markets are much lower this week, after the democrats won the house. Very predictable.
Yes, this is why I sold most of my shares before the elections.

Very smart call.
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Any and every life will act to prevent what it has from being stolen from it; any and every life will act in such a way to prevent other entities from intruding upon its own personal space (self valuing boundaries, valences, etc.), and any and every life will attempt to seek agreements and value-compromises with others around it in order to prevent itself from being enslaved by other entities that would exercise direct control over it and turn it into a mere instrumental utility for larger powers.

So I see these principles are indeed fundamental, even the natural world follows them. But for humans, who run on conscious thought, language, and understanding, we have to now find a way to translate these deep logical principles into a kind of understanding and language of ideas that make sense to us on a cognitive and emotional level. That is the real struggle, I think. And also to do all that in such a way that negotiates all other essential factors and facts.
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So now I am seeing how the three principles I outlined flow directly from the primary fact of self-valuing.
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"I don't want to suppress the higher-order principles in favor of the lower-order ones. "

You make a hell of a point.
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Only now that you clarified it like this can I see the inevitability of this right to privacy. It becomes fun, too, if you phrase it like that - a good fight is always fun. At least not dreadful like a chore. One that you can win because it makes sense to win at this.

Im glad you're on top of these things. Trump can't do everything.
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I do think namely that where fundamental rights can be identified with certainty, they will be attained. I think thats what such a right is. A seed of a might.

Right is might - this is a more enduring truth.
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I had derived the right to property in the past but not the right to privacy. But in the digital age they have become almost the same thing.
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I do not think that right is might, or that might makes right. Right and might are separate from one another, we might think of might as the capacity to do something, whereas right is the fact of what one should do. Doing requires power, and power requires an intent or purpose to guide it's action, but power and doing-with-power are not the same thing. What one does with a knife is not logically equivalent to the knife itself, for example, but of course there is some relation there too, since you can only do with a knife what a knife is actually capable of being used to do, and furthermore what it has been designed to do will most likely be what it is used for.

I certainly have the might, the power, to bash some random person over the head with a large stone and kill him. Of course just because I have this might does not mean I have some right to do so or that it is right to do so. Rights also do not "come from" anywhere, they simply exist as aspects of ourselves and life we recognize are important and necessary as principles for the kind of life that conforms to the kinds of beings which we are. It is somewhat circular, which is not a slight against this setup; beings have these requirements, conditions and states of being which open them up to greater possibilities. It isn't as if there exists in the universe a "right" to these requirements, rather the being itself must come to understand such requirements and then act to achieve them. The idea of rights is one way we do this, by instantiating in language and in law these conditions as principles and setting their importance outside of ourselves, objectively in nature or God, or simply in reason-logic.

The basic structure of a 'right' is, it seems to me, A=A. That which we are, necessitates that which we ought to do. The destruction of Hume and his weird separation of is and ought, certainly, but also this sets right and might in a certain relationship: might is the capability to act in terms of right, but right itself is entirely separate from might except in so far as a certain degree of "might" (cognitive might, for instance) is needed to even achieve understanding of the conditions and requirements which we end up calling rights.

Rights are based in understanding, what "is right" is not rooted in "what I can do". Something might be right and I might have absolutely no might, no power or ability, to do it; this does not somehow mean that the thing in question is not still right, it just means it is right and I can do nothing about it. The right itself, what is right, and the ability to actually act in terms of that right, are two distinct and separate things. Mere might does not guarantee right, and mere right does not guarantee the might to enforce and enact that right in the world. So both must work together, but that does not mean they are the same thing, rather it demonstrates they are not the same thing.

Might does not make right, and right does not make might; or, we might say that might itself makes a certain kind of "right" in its own terms, and right itself makes a certain kind of "might" in its own terms, both directly and indirectly in so far as certain conditions for might or for right also must be the case. Is a certain threshold understanding of right required for the achievement of certain degrees of might? Perhaps. Is a certain threshold of might required in order to achieve certain understandings of right? Perhaps. To enact that right in the world? Certainly. But can might on its own guarantee or determine right? No.
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I like to see what concepts imply over time given that their claimed meaning is substantive (not speculative, hypothetical).
So a right, if it is fundamental, would not be able to fail to manifest itself as a might, otherwise it would not be fundamental.
But of course might and right are not in the same class of terms at all. I was just saying I might actually believe in the right to privacy if it is grounded ontologically, which, to me, makes it a power. But almost all power needs to be disclosed. I would not agree that it isn't power before it is disclosed, as I see the power to be disclosed as the core of power.
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I think you will probably disagree to this; I do not rights can be fundamental if there isn't an elegant way to universalize them. I don't mean that it can't take ten thousand years to even claim them, I mean that, like in mathematics, there must be an elegance to the process of deriving it, or that there would be if given logics harbour its potential.

I now could see how privacy could be derived in an elegant way, which would turn it into a raw power to me, a potential to be disclosed.
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https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-is-optimistic-it-will-prosecute-assange-1542323142

If Trump allows Assange to end up in jail, I am absolutely done with respecting him.
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I fundamentally know that if the US jails Assange it is done for. It makes out of all people like me a fundamental enemy, it will remain in no way something anyone will want to fight for. It will just be another second rate Iran.
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