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Pezer
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PostSubject: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeMon Sep 16, 2013 11:17 pm

The artist says "I cannot do anything but create art. I am good at nothing else."

The philosopher says "I cannot do anything but-" and then he laughs!
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeWed Sep 18, 2013 10:42 am

Pezer wrote:
The artist says "I cannot do anything but create art. I am good at nothing else."

The philosopher says "I cannot do anything but-" and then he laughs!

Do you feel/think that the artist, in "reality", thinks this way ~~ that ALL art is to the artist - is simply splashing paint on canvas and words on paper?

Are you forgetting the fact that, within the artist, is the philosopher?
That is NOT to say that within the philosopher there is NO artist.

Art ~~ real Art ~~ is divine creative energy taking form and shape - what more is there?

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeWed Sep 18, 2013 12:15 pm

I am not forgetting any of that.
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeWed Sep 18, 2013 12:32 pm

I thought this description was spot on. But quite obviously it is only recognizable to that one who has defined himself in this way - by not being able to utter anymore words because of the sudden explosive expansion in his mind, when he approaches the point of com-prehending what it is that he does.

An artists work is relatively simple. I am an artist, at least a pretty decent one as recognized by my peers, and I know the kind of consciousness that goes into it. A philosopher works with very different laws. He works with the same means - life - but without the liberty the artist has to permit himself. The philosopher knows this liberty to distract from his true freedom, which is the heights, the mountaintop and the cool air, the absence of people who desire for what he does and any sort of distractions, alone with the truth.

When the philosopher is face to face with the truth he has produced, he is baffled, he can't believe it, that he exists, that this actually happened. There is nothing in the world that prepares the philosopher for himself.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeSat Sep 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Fixed Cross

Quote :
I thought this description was spot on.
Why is that? You do not think that perhaps it is kind of a one-sided thought, a bias?

Are you saying that the artist is not capable of saying: "I cannot do anything but-" and then laugh about it because he realizes the full extent of what that means?

Is the true artist any less a seeker after truth than is the philosopher? The artist tries to show truth and beauty and Life as it is, and to use his art, energy, passion, soul as a vehicle into the discovery of those ideals through his painting, through his creative energy and the agony that can go into it.

Is the true artist any less aware than is the philosopher that art is his very raison de etre and the only thing worth following, just about the only thing worth living and breathing for?
Is not the true artist, as an individual, as humbled by that realization as is the philosopher?


Quote :
But quite obviously it is only recognizable to that one who has defined himself in this way - by not being able to utter anymore words because of the sudden explosive expansion in his mind, when he approaches the point of com-prehending what it is that he does.
I have found that many have used that term "obvious" when in effect something was not quite that obvious. As you say - defined himself in this way. What does "that" sound like to you?
Is the philosopher one who sees ONLY himself as a seeker of the truth?


Quote :
An artists work is relatively simple. I am an artist, at least a pretty decent one as recognized by my peers, and I know the kind of consciousness that goes into it.
Degas said that "painting is easy when you don't know how, but very difficult when you do".
I'm sure that as a philosopher seeking after truth that you understand that insight and concept.
What kind of an effect does your art bring forth? Does it bring on "consciousness"?
Is consciousness such an easy thing to draw out of people or to inspire?

Quote :
A philosopher works with very different laws. He works with the same means - life - but without the liberty the artist has to permit himself. The philosopher knows this liberty to distract from his true freedom, which is the heights, the mountaintop and the cool air, .
You don't think that any real artist is disciplined? Perhaps that so-called liberty which you see in the artist is a kind of courage under fire, where he sets out in abandon to find the truth within and without and to set it before the world?
Sometimes that which appears to be more free and less structured is more difficult...sometimes free verse is more difficult than rhyming.


Quote :
the absence of people who desire for what he does and any sort of distractions, alone with the truth


So, philosophers are the only kind who experience this? I intruit that you are a true philosopher ~~in my book, I understand this, but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater in order to raise yourself above those, who in truth, may be of the same mind and soul as you. Perhaps both the philosopher and the artist seek the holy grail.


Quote :
When the philosopher is face to face with the truth he has produced, he is baffled, he can't believe it, that he exists, that this actually happened. .
And what about the artist's production? He may be somewhat baffled too - in that he finds it incredible that something such as that which he has produced has come from his self.
Is a Van Gogh more incredible than a Nietzsche?

Sometimes even I will write a poem and I get that same realization. Is it ego or is it humility?lol
Quote :

There is nothing in the world that prepares the philosopher for himself
Laughing Well, there may be but I won't name it.

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeSat Sep 21, 2013 2:43 pm

Quote :
There is nothing in the world that prepares the philosopher for himself
That may be true but at the same time you might also say that about any human being, especially any individual who is seeking more consciousness and self-awareness.




 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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Fixed Cross
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeSat Sep 21, 2013 8:14 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Fixed Cross

Quote :
I thought this description was spot on.
Why is that? You do not think that perhaps it is kind of a one-sided thought, a bias?
It is a perspective, certainly. One that immediately resounded in my mind.
I was aware, writing the reply, that I did not do justice to the insight. Often, an aphorism expresses something more clearly than ten pages of reflection on it.

Quote :
Are you saying that the artist is not capable of saying: "I cannot do anything but-" and then laugh about it because he realizes the full extent of what that means?
The laugh expresses the impossibility of categorizing  the very act of reasoning. Explaining art does not involve this contradiction, as art is not ultimately rational, but visceral. The art itself is the laugh, you could say. If it is very good.

Quote :
Is the true artist any less a seeker after truth than is the philosopher?
The philosopher is not a seeker after truth, but after wisdom. Art is indeed seeking after truth, but very rarely has it anything to do with wisdom. If it does, it is often very predictable folk-morality.

Quote :
The artist tries to show truth and beauty and Life as it is, and to use his art, energy, passion, soul as a vehicle into the discovery of those ideals through his painting, through his creative energy and the agony that can go into it.

Is the true artist any less aware than is the philosopher that art is his very raison de etre and the only thing worth following, just about the only thing worth living and breathing for?
No, and that awareness is precisely how Pezer described the artist.

Quote :
Is not the true artist, as an individual, as humbled by that realization as is the philosopher?
The philosopher can not be humble, that would be a genocidal act of hypocrisy. He has to take responsibility for his creation. You are correct that the artist precisely does not do this - this is his freedom. An artist gets good when he can submit himself to his power.

Quote :
Quote :
An artists work is relatively simple. I am an artist, at least a pretty decent one as recognized by my peers, and I know the kind of consciousness that goes into it.
Degas said that "painting is easy when you don't know how, but very difficult when you do".
I'm sure that as a philosopher seeking after truth that you understand that insight and concept.
I know it as an artist. I was very good when I started, the difficulty came a couple of years after. Philosophy does not grow in this way. In general, a philosopher is a philosopher much earlier on than the average artist in very early childhood. And it's not about being good at things - it's about being compelled to ask the most problematic questions.

I find that the questions asked in art are almost never really interesting. What's interesting is the way they are answered.

Quote :
What kind of an effect does your art bring forth? Does it bring on "consciousness"?
So they say.

Some people listen to my music on their way to a gruesome working day, some people cry when they watch my short film things - but all this is unintended on my part. I just express what I feel. Philosophy is really a very different endeavor. It's not ruled by emotion, it's precisely what stands unmoved in the vast vortex of emotion that marks my life. It's really a strange phenomenon, and from what I've seen and lived amongst, rare.

Quote :
Is consciousness such an easy thing to draw out of people or to inspire?
Whenever I work on art, "easy" is nowhere to be felt. Art requires total commitment, and it's frightening because there's no falling back on anything.

Quote :
Quote :
A philosopher works with very different laws. He works with the same means - life - but without the liberty the artist has to permit himself. The philosopher knows this liberty to distract from his true freedom, which is the heights, the mountaintop and the cool air, .
You don't think that any real artist is disciplined? Perhaps that so-called liberty which you see in the artist is a kind of courage under fire, where he sets out in abandon to find the truth within and without and to set it before the world?
It is. I'm not denying that. But truth as a domain is much freeer than wisdom. Wisdom prescribes, and an attitude passing for wisdom can thus be genocidally insane. Art can not have this effect, as truth does not prescribe, it just describes.

Quote :
Sometimes that which appears to be more free and less structured is more difficult...sometimes free verse is more difficult than rhyming.
I have no illusions about art being easy. I made quite a few good things, but I am still at the base-camp, and trembling before the ascent.

Quote :
Quote :
the absence of people who desire for what he does and any sort of distractions, alone with the truth
So, philosophers are the only kind who experience this? I intruit that you are a true philosopher ~~in my book, I understand this, but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater in order to raise yourself above those, who in truth, may be of the same mind and soul as you. Perhaps both the philosopher and the artist seek the holy grail.
Artists seek the holy grail, but the philosopher actually stumbles on it and then has to deal with that, seeing how the grail is quite a cruel machine. Philosophy's wisdom has much to do in how much truth is good to be conscious of. Nietzsche's entire work is about finding an attitude vis a vis the truth that is much harder than what our present human art can justify.

Art rises and falls with philosophy. See for verification of this the rise and fall of roman art from the time of the Republic to the time of Constantine.

Quote :
Quote :
When the philosopher is face to face with the truth he has produced, he is baffled, he can't believe it, that he exists, that this actually happened. .
And what about the artist's production? He may be somewhat baffled too - in that he finds it incredible that something such as that which he has produced has come from his self.
Yes, the artist has this sentiment as well. I knew as I wrote this that this did not do justice to the aphorism. As I said, it's difficult to make any clearer than it already is.

Quote :
Is a Van Gogh more incredible than a Nietzsche?
Van Gogh did not stand at the basis of two world wars and an age of superhuman dominion machines. Art can not do this kind of thing. You can only compare Nietzsche to someone like Jesus. Someone who transforms the way the human species walks its evolutionary path.

Art is reflection and, if fortune strikes, justification of such transformations.

Quote :
Sometimes even  I will write a poem and I get that same realization. Is it ego or is it humility?lol
I hope it's a form of joy. The ego-humility dichotomy is unhealthy. To be restricted to an ego is itself a very humbling fact.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeWed Jan 22, 2014 10:18 am

Art is more entertainment that can with the subjective interpretation and reaction in the body and mind of the observer, leave any number and scale of unpredictable impacts on the observer.

Philosophy is thought. The thought of all things possible and not.
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Pezer
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeMon Sep 14, 2015 9:52 am

Zarathustra has left the mountain!
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PostSubject: Re: Artists and philosophers   Artists and philosophers Icon_minitimeFri Oct 09, 2015 10:08 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Fixed Cross

Quote :
I thought this description was spot on.
Why is that? You do not think that perhaps it is kind of a one-sided thought, a bias?
It is a perspective, certainly. One that immediately resounded in my mind.
I was aware, writing the reply, that I did not do justice to the insight. Often, an aphorism expresses something more clearly than ten pages of reflection on it.

Quote :
Are you saying that the artist is not capable of saying: "I cannot do anything but-" and then laugh about it because he realizes the full extent of what that means?
The laugh expresses the impossibility of categorizing  the very act of reasoning. Explaining art does not involve this contradiction, as art is not ultimately rational, but visceral. The art itself is the laugh, you could say. If it is very good.

Quote :
Is the true artist any less a seeker after truth than is the philosopher?
The philosopher is not a seeker after truth, but after wisdom. Art is indeed seeking after truth, but very rarely has it anything to do with wisdom. If it does, it is often very predictable folk-morality.

Quote :
The artist tries to show truth and beauty and Life as it is, and to use his art, energy, passion, soul as a vehicle into the discovery of those ideals through his painting, through his creative energy and the agony that can go into it.

Is the true artist any less aware than is the philosopher that art is his very raison de etre and the only thing worth following, just about the only thing worth living and breathing for?
No, and that awareness is precisely how Pezer described the artist.

Quote :
Is not the true artist, as an individual, as humbled by that realization as is the philosopher?
The philosopher can not be humble, that would be a genocidal act of hypocrisy. He has to take responsibility for his creation. You are correct that the artist precisely does not do this - this is his freedom. An artist gets good when he can submit himself to his power.

Quote :
Quote :
An artists work is relatively simple. I am an artist, at least a pretty decent one as recognized by my peers, and I know the kind of consciousness that goes into it.
Degas said that "painting is easy when you don't know how, but very difficult when you do".
I'm sure that as a philosopher seeking after truth that you understand that insight and concept.
I know it as an artist. I was very good when I started, the difficulty came a couple of years after. Philosophy does not grow in this way. In general, a philosopher is a philosopher much earlier on than the average artist in very early childhood. And it's not about being good at things - it's about being compelled to ask the most problematic questions.

I find that the questions asked in art are almost never really interesting. What's interesting is the way they are answered.

Quote :
What kind of an effect does your art bring forth? Does it bring on "consciousness"?
So they say.

Some people listen to my music on their way to a gruesome working day, some people cry when they watch my short film things - but all this is unintended on my part. I just express what I feel. Philosophy is really a very different endeavor. It's not ruled by emotion, it's precisely what stands unmoved in the vast vortex of emotion that marks my life. It's really a strange phenomenon, and from what I've seen and lived amongst, rare.

Quote :
Is consciousness such an easy thing to draw out of people or to inspire?
Whenever I work on art, "easy" is nowhere to be felt. Art requires total commitment, and it's frightening because there's no falling back on anything.

Quote :
Quote :
A philosopher works with very different laws. He works with the same means - life - but without the liberty the artist has to permit himself. The philosopher knows this liberty to distract from his true freedom, which is the heights, the mountaintop and the cool air, .
You don't think that any real artist is disciplined? Perhaps that so-called liberty which you see in the artist is a kind of courage under fire, where he sets out in abandon to find the truth within and without and to set it before the world?
It is. I'm not denying that. But truth as a domain is much freeer than wisdom. Wisdom prescribes, and an attitude passing for wisdom can thus be genocidally insane. Art can not have this effect, as truth does not prescribe, it just describes.

Quote :
Sometimes that which appears to be more free and less structured is more difficult...sometimes free verse is more difficult than rhyming.
I have no illusions about art being easy. I made quite a few good things, but I am still at the base-camp, and trembling before the ascent.

Quote :
Quote :
the absence of people who desire for what he does and any sort of distractions, alone with the truth
So, philosophers are the only kind who experience this? I intruit that you are a true philosopher ~~in my book, I understand this, but do not throw the baby out with the bathwater in order to raise yourself above those, who in truth, may be of the same mind and soul as you. Perhaps both the philosopher and the artist seek the holy grail.
Artists seek the holy grail, but the philosopher actually stumbles on it and then has to deal with that, seeing how the grail is quite a cruel machine. Philosophy's wisdom has much to do in how much truth is good to be conscious of. Nietzsche's entire work is about finding an attitude vis a vis the truth that is much harder than what our present human art can justify.

Art rises and falls with philosophy. See for verification of this the rise and fall of roman art from the time of the Republic to the time of Constantine.

Quote :
Quote :
When the philosopher is face to face with the truth he has produced, he is baffled, he can't believe it, that he exists, that this actually happened. .
And what about the artist's production? He may be somewhat baffled too - in that he finds it incredible that something such as that which he has produced has come from his self.
Yes, the artist has this sentiment as well. I knew as I wrote this that this did not do justice to the aphorism. As I said, it's difficult to make any clearer than it already is.

Quote :
Is a Van Gogh more incredible than a Nietzsche?
Van Gogh did not stand at the basis of two world wars and an age of superhuman dominion machines. Art can not do this kind of thing. You can only compare Nietzsche to someone like Jesus. Someone who transforms the way the human species walks its evolutionary path.

Art is reflection and, if fortune strikes, justification of such transformations.

Quote :
Sometimes even  I will write a poem and I get that same realization. Is it ego or is it humility?lol
I hope it's a form of joy. The ego-humility dichotomy is unhealthy. To be restricted to an ego is itself a very humbling fact.

I never saw this. I WILL respond to it in time.

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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