Patriotism

I'm not "proud to be an American", I am not "an American", no one is. I am a human being who just happened through no choice of my own to be born here. Associating one's identity and self-image with a nation one had nothing to do with is sort of pathological, if you think about it.

But I am proud that America exists.

Well, I'm still a proud American. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.

Taking personal pride in something you personally had no hand in at all is the road to insanity.

Capable wrote:

Taking personal pride in something you personally had no hand in at all is the road to insanity.

Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America.

I do not accept responsibility for anything I did not have a hand in nor do I accept any responsibility for anything regarding America that I am ashamed of and did my best to prevent from happening.

So I suppose you should rethink that last statement of yours.

You personally had a hand in creating America to be what it is?

Ok then.

I'm irritated to not be an American sometimes.

What have been the American battles and wars that you've fought, won, and lost, if I may ask so much, Sisyphus?

I do believe that a single citizen can have a structural impact - even someone who isn't a citizen.
One of my boy hood heroes has been Arnold Schwarzennegger, and I dont think Ive have ever been as amused by anything in politics as when he became Governator. And amusement is by far the best thing public Politics can be - if it takes itself rigidly seriously in the public eye, it is likely to have grave doubts about its future.

Politics is essentially the struggle of clans with enough power to build infrastructure of any kind. Social, geographical, transport, electrical, petrochemical, aerial or orbital, mineral, transactional, all this is about who can provide the Value. It is all about honor, and government is built to stand in the way.
But ideally, only as flashing lights and crossroads. Warning: cross here and you will be contended with by your opponent without other forces coming to your aid.

English international politics, the Empire of Balance.

Fixed Cross wrote:

What have been the American battles and wars that you've fought, won, and lost, if I may ask so much, Sisyphus?

I was involved in the Vietnam War.

But wars are not what builds respect for a nation. It are the good will ambassadors, those who visit other countries, try to learn a little of their language, learn their culture and customs, treat them with respect, etc.

I did those things. And I received respect in return. Not just respect of me but also of my being an American.

Wherever I was stationed during non-duty hours I was likely out and about mingling with the natives. And I never hesitated to mention that I was an American.

This was my role in building respect for America and Americans.

Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.

Capable wrote:

Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.  

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one. Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!

Sisyphus wrote:

Capable wrote:

Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.  

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one.  Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!

You are being deliberately dense. But of course that is your right.

Capable wrote:

Sisyphus wrote:

Capable wrote:

Ah yes, murdering Vietnamese clearly helped contribute to what makes American pride. Thanks for clarifying.  

You are such a pessimist!!!

I murdered no one.  Don't be judging me based on your ignorance!

You are being deliberately dense. But of course that is your right.

Would you please consider that it is you who is being dense by judging something before you know anything about it?

Look, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Listen up.

I made the point that it is pathological to associate oneself and one's identity and pride with the place one just randomly happens to be born. When we are born somewhere, we had nothing at all to do with making that place what it is when we are born into it. People who go around feeling "patriotism" and "I am an American! Yeah!" are fucking stupid, they are just using national pride as a religion of the self to generate something resembling self-esteem and a sense of subjective meaning for themselves. I get why they do it, but it is stupid.

You replied by saying that you had a hand in everything about American that makes you proud. You neglect to list what it is about America that makes you proud, or how you had a hand in it, but whatever. I don't expect you to put in any serious effort here, so I will let that slide.

Then you, surprise, did apparently try to make such an effort, which is great, except that... your argument for how you had a hand in everything about America that makes you proud, was to say that you were a soldier in a war. And not just any war, but Viet fucking nam. Wow, really. I had no idea that the Vietnam war was the pinnacle of American pride and greatness, in fact I believe it is quite the other way around and example of what is most deplorable, stupid, reactionary, unthoughtful, petty and vain about America.

Your retort is that you didn't personally murder anyone. Ok, so you really weren't "in the war" the, is what you were saying? You just walked around in some jungles and never had to man up and take another life, like a good soldier would do? How the fuck does that make you more justified in your argument rather than less justified in it? Your unstated assumption is that it is better for you not to have killed anyone in that war than to have killed them, which leaves me wondering what the fuck you are using the war itself, in which many many people were killed, as some kind of paragon for what makes American pride?

And lastly, on top of it all, you accuse me of being a "pessimist" without offering a single reason or explanation of what you mean by that. So, again, I am not going to be trolled on my own fucking site. Start offering some real substance here or stick to that regard-troll Myki in his little corner (I think I will rename his topic The Insane Asylum, now that I am thinking of it).

Sorry if I'm being a dick, I'm trying not to be. I agree that it's nice you partook in local cultures when you were abroad, that is indeed an approach that rings true of a proud American. But you haven't even said what your role in the war was, much less how that contributed to American pride. By most accounts the Vietnam war wasn't a source of American pride but a stain on that pride. The only possible argument I can think of to defend the Vietnam war in terms of American pride is that it represented an excess of American valuing, an excess that strayed into the irrational. I don't know what point you're trying to make with it because you haven't made it yet.

Just to be clear, this is what you said: "Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America."

I still don't see a point in this new post of yours that shows what it is about America that you're proud of or how you contributed to it. Swearing loyalty to follow orders while you're in the army might take pride, or in some cases im sure it takes the opposite of pride, namely a lack of it, but even so that still isn't making your case or refuting the point I made in the OP.

And I'm not a pacifist, just to be clear.

This place here is for philosophy. I'd like to see arguments that at least aspire to that.

Capable wrote:

Sorry if I'm being a dick, I'm trying not to be. I agree that it's nice you partook in local cultures when you were abroad, that is indeed an approach that rings true of a proud American. But you haven't even said what your role in the war was, much less how that contributed to American pride. By most accounts the Vietnam war wasn't a source of American pride but a stain on that pride. The only possible argument I can think of to defend the Vietnam war in terms of American pride is that it represented an excess of American valuing, an excess that strayed into the irrational. I don't know what point you're trying to make with it because you haven't made it yet.

Great!  We are beginning to talk "with" each other rather than "to" each other.

The Vietnam War was a total disaster for the United States.  I thought and still believe that it was a very stupid war.  But Kennedy and Johnson wanted the war for personal reasons.  Kennedy to make up for his failure with Cuba and Johnson so he could make lots of millions of dollars.

We had no right being over there.  The reasons told to the American people why the war was necessary were all lies.  We started the war, not the Vietnamese.  But lots of Americans made millions of dollars from it so in their opinion it was a good thing.

I mean, they were putting American soldiers in harm's way so they could make a buck.  They didn't see any problem with that as long as they didn't have to go over there.

To think that I am proud to have served in Vietnam is an error.  I simply did what I had sworn to do - comply with the orders of the president.  All of us felt that way.

To suggest that we were combating Communism was the biggest lie of all.

I didn't have a job when I was in Vietnam.  My skill was not needed.  I was sent there in 1970 only because I hadn't been there yet.

But I did an excellent job at staying alive so that I could return to the USA after my tour of duty.

Capable wrote:

Just to be clear, this is what you said: "Oh, but I very much did have a hand in everything I am proud of regarding my pride in America."

Excellent. Now please read it over and over again without adding words or removing any of my words. Pay special attention to "... everything I am proud of ..."

Sisyphus wrote:

I didn't have a job when I was in Vietnam.  My skill was not needed.  I was sent there in 1970 only because I hadn't been there yet.

But I did an excellent job at staying alive so that I could return to the USA after my tour of duty.

I like this warstory.

Capable wrote:

I still don't see a point in this new post of yours that shows what it is about America that you're proud of or how you contributed to it. Swearing loyalty to follow orders while you're in the army might take pride, or in some cases im sure it takes the opposite of pride, namely a lack of it, but even so that still isn't making your case or refuting the point I made in the OP.

We will find it difficult to gain full agreement here. America isn't only about how badly my government fucked up by starting the Vietnam War. It goes so much further than that.

It has to do with an area of land that is governed in accordance to standards established by its founding fathers. Freedom from a lot of the oppressions that people of other nations have to live with.

My Army service was only a small part of my life. Freedom has always been a part of my life. And I live by the code tht I should not make promises I cannot keep. Therefore my pride in having been an honorable soldier.

So I still must insist that one who has served their country has a right to be proud, even if they did not agree with the laws of the politicians of the time.

Capable wrote:

And I'm not a pacifist, just to be clear.

Okay. I was just testing you.

Capable wrote:

This place here is for philosophy. I'd like to see arguments that at least aspire to that.

I am doing my best. There is, in my mind, a philosophy of taking responsibility for our thoughts, words, and deeds. There is a philosophy of self-realization and self-actualization.

Your philosophy gave you inspiration to start the thread on patriotism. I disagreed with your conclusion. This is all based in our philosophy of life.