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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:20 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

Yes, isn't it marvelous - we ourselves are micro universes - we mimic the greater universe.
Let's not forget dark matter, black holes, gravity. We are multitudinous...lol

And don't forget dark energy, thought to be 70% of the totality of the universe. Pushing away is important too.
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:23 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I know this. It just, for that moment, seemed to be funny and made me LOL.
It does at times though take a while to subdue that monkey mind. We have to allow it to calm down on its own and then just go swing in some other tree. lol
I think that "pure being" is awareness without thought, it's grace filled. No gravity there.

I like your response so well I don't even want to speak to it. I don't want to spoil it.
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:31 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the questions could change?  Many of them are stale and the answers too.
But perhaps its more about finding different answers to the questions - trying to think out of the box.
Maybe only the genius is capable of that.
I really have to get that book by Nagel "The View from Nowhere". That would open up my mind for more?


“Even if we acknowledge the existence of distinct and irreducible perspectives, the wish for a unified conception of the world doesn’t go away. If we can’t achieve it in a form that eliminates individual perspectives, we may inquire to what extent it can be achieved if we admit them.”
― Thomas Nagel, The View From Nowhere


How can anyone ever get bored with ideas like this?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I can't speak of Nagel as I do not know any of his writings. Capable expressed himself well. Hehehe.

But really, it seems that every generation must ask their questions. Most are redundant as are the answers.

Looking for and finding different answers is fine as long as they are within the realm of reality. Floating on cloud nine is a nice thought but it really can't happen except in one's own distorted mind.

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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:38 am

Capable wrote:
Thomas Nagel is an idiot.


Lol. Well, since i haven't read anything of him yet, I can't really give my subjective thought on him or formed an opinion.
But I am looking forward to "reading" him.
Your words have whet my appetite and curiosity for more.


But I would be interested to know why you think that he is an idiot.
How does his thinking clash with yours?


 

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Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:01 am

Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

I suppose that I can understand your first line. Purpose IS an individual thing which we create ourselves or walk into based on our life experiences.  Some will question it and some will not - why - perhaps because we want to see ourselves as self-determined entities and not puppets on a string or like the Borg collective.

So  are you saying that there is a relationship between purpose and cause and effect?
Intuition and spontaneity are wonderful but again intuition can be faulty and our minds too - they may lag behind and not sense what's being shown.

I have asked the question WHY so often in my life. That makes you wonder about purpose and destiny and things like serendipity, et cetera.

...............

Quote :
Yes, we each must create our own purpose because if we look for a higher power given purpose we find none.

There was a time before I put on agnostic clothing that I felt that God had a given purpose for me...but not now. I'm sure there are many who believe God's purpose for them is their purpose.
I think it's only human to feel that - perhaps it's because we need the affirmation that it comes from Something larger or greater than ourselves - and we need to feel in accord and harmony with God. But I don't know. I'm sure psychologically speaking, it's more complex than that.


Quote :
I think I am saying more at there is no purpose other than the effects from all the causes in our life.

This is true too I think in a great sense.  But does it run even deeper than that?
Sometimes it is just so difficult to shake off that eerie sense that there is planned (for lack of a better word) purpose or destiny- though I don't really "believe" that at all. It's just a conglomeration of all of our living experiences and thoughts I think...a synergy of sorts.


Quote :
Yeah, you mentioned your distrust of intuition before.  I trust mine in the most part.

I don't totally distrust it at all. I do "see" it and experience it. But sometimes for our own sake we want to believe what we believe though intuition has nothing to do with belief, i don't think. And sometimes we don't pay attention to it when it's breathing down our necks. If I had at one time, i would not have been attacked.
My intuition tells me that there are such things as serendipity and synchronicity but at the same time I stop at a distance from it.
There is sooooooooooooooooooooooo mcuh which we do not know about the universe and ourselves - I like to remain in agnostic mode about many things.




Quote :
Purpose and destiny are simply cause and effect.  there is no purpose and there is no destiny as long as we have choices.

By cause and effect, can you also mean "living experiences"?   I sometimes wonder if my purpose and destiny are ALSO as a result of the memories of some of my ancestors flowing through my bloodstream? That might have soundest weird to you. lol
It doesn't make our actions and responses any less self-determined and autonomous.

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:04 am

Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

Yes, isn't it marvelous - we ourselves are micro universes - we mimic the greater universe.
Let's not forget dark matter, black holes, gravity. We are multitudinous...lol

And don't forget dark energy, thought to be 70% of the totality of the universe.  Pushing away is important too.

How can I forget something which flows through me?(They have no little devil smilie in here - oh well). We all experience that dark energy but we need to harness it and re-direct it.

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:07 am

Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

I know this. It just, for that moment, seemed to be funny and made me LOL.
It does at times though take a while to subdue that monkey mind. We have to allow it to calm down on its own and then just go swing in some other tree. lol
I think that "pure being" is awareness without thought, it's grace filled. No gravity there.

I like your response so well I don't even want to speak to it.  I don't want to spoil it.

..........................

Hmmm ~~ well, if you can spoil my response, perhaps there is a better one.

Can't there be another way of looking at something? sunny

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 11:25 am

Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the questions could change?  Many of them are stale and the answers too.
But perhaps its more about finding different answers to the questions - trying to think out of the box.
Maybe only the genius is capable of that.
I really have to get that book by Nagel "The View from Nowhere". That would open up my mind for more?


“Even if we acknowledge the existence of distinct and irreducible perspectives, the wish for a unified conception of the world doesn’t go away. If we can’t achieve it in a form that eliminates individual perspectives, we may inquire to what extent it can be achieved if we admit them.”
― Thomas Nagel, The View From Nowhere


How can anyone ever get bored with ideas like this?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

.........................................................


Quote :
I can't speak of Nagel as I do not know any of his writings.  Capable expressed himself well.  Hehehe.

Something about your "hehehe" made me laugh.
Yes, Capable expressed himself quite adamantly.



Quote :
But really, it seems that every generation must ask their questions.  Most are redundant as are the answers.

Yes, and answer them.
But when we ask "ourselves" questions about our individual personal selves, hopefully we come up with different answers, those we were not able to see or did not have the courage to see.
But at least science moves forward in time.


Quote :
Looking for and finding different answers is fine as long as they are within the realm of reality.  Floating on cloud nine is a nice thought but it really can't happen except in one's own distorted mind.

True.  But let us not throw away the baby with the bathwater.



I want to thank you for responding to me in here. It is for the most part only my realistic nihilism lol which keeps me afloat here...which gives me a more relaxed perspective, devil- may- care attitude..especially in light of everything which goes on within the world. I'm a "whittler".
What is that quote from Casablanca about ...


“Ilsa, I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."



We sometimes view ourselves as being much more important than we actually are.....all things considered.
All we have to do really is to compare what we are experiencin and havee with what others are experiencing and have not and voila there goes the wood dust onto the floor. cheers

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:16 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

I suppose that I can understand your first line. Purpose IS an individual thing which we create ourselves or walk into based on our life experiences.  Some will question it and some will not - why - perhaps because we want to see ourselves as self-determined entities and not puppets on a string or like the Borg collective.

So  are you saying that there is a relationship between purpose and cause and effect?
Intuition and spontaneity are wonderful but again intuition can be faulty and our minds too - they may lag behind and not sense what's being shown.

I have asked the question WHY so often in my life. That makes you wonder about purpose and destiny and things like serendipity, et cetera.

...............

Quote :
Yes, we each must create our own purpose because if we look for a higher power given purpose we find none.

There was a time before I put on agnostic clothing that I felt that God had a given purpose for me...but not now. I'm sure there are many who believe God's purpose for them is their purpose.
I think it's only human to feel that - perhaps it's because we need the affirmation that it comes from Something larger or greater than ourselves - and we need to feel in accord and harmony with God. But I don't know. I'm sure psychologically speaking, it's more complex than that.

There have been studies regarding this and it seems there is a tendency, perhaps an instinct, to believe in something greater that what can be observed directly of the universe. It's almost like we are programmed to believe in a "higher power". Agnostics doubt - atheists deny.



Quote :
I think I am saying more at there is no purpose other than the effects from all the causes in our life.

This is true too I think in a great sense.  But does it run even deeper than that?
Sometimes it is just so difficult to shake off that eerie sense  that there is  planned (for lack of a better word) purpose or destiny- though I don't really "believe" that at all. It's just a conglomeration of all of our living experiences and thoughts I think...a synergy of sorts.

As mentioned above. But also your last sentence is valid, I think.



Quote :
Yeah, you mentioned your distrust of intuition before.  I trust mine in the most part.

I don't totally distrust it at all. I do "see" it and experience it. But sometimes for our own sake we want to believe what we believe though intuition has nothing to do with belief, i don't think. And sometimes we don't pay attention to it when it's breathing down our necks. If I had at one time, i would not have been attacked.
My intuition tells me that there are such things as serendipity and synchronicity but at the same time I stop at a distance from it.
There is sooooooooooooooooooooooo mcuh which we do not know about the universe  and ourselves - I like to remain in agnostic mode about many things.

Sad about you having been attacked. Sure, the agnostic view - doubt therefore caution. And then, our brain is regularly making connections based on past experiences that we all too often do not pay attention to.



Quote :
Purpose and destiny are simply cause and effect.  there is no purpose and there is no destiny as long as we have choices.

By cause and effect, can you also mean "living experiences"?   I sometimes wonder if my purpose and destiny are ALSO as a result of the memories of some of my ancestors flowing through my bloodstream? That might have soundest weird to you. lol
It doesn't make our actions and responses any less self-determined and autonomous.

Yes, "living experiences" must be included.

The rest of your paragraph is Jungian. I hold to that only to our mother's side. But I generally avoid speaking to the concept.

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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:18 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

Yes, isn't it marvelous - we ourselves are micro universes - we mimic the greater universe.
Let's not forget dark matter, black holes, gravity. We are multitudinous...lol

And don't forget dark energy, thought to be 70% of the totality of the universe.  Pushing away is important too.

How can I forget something which flows through me?(They have  no little devil smilie in here - oh well).  We all experience that dark energy but we need to harness it and re-direct it.

Into internal alchemy, are you? That's the kind of stuff those folks talk about.
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:26 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

I know this. It just, for that moment, seemed to be funny and made me LOL.
It does at times though take a while to subdue that monkey mind. We have to allow it to calm down on its own and then just go swing in some other tree. lol
I think that "pure being" is awareness without thought, it's grace filled. No gravity there.

I like your response so well I don't even want to speak to it.  I don't want to spoil it.

..........................

Hmmm ~~ well, if you can spoil my response, perhaps there is a better one.

Can't there be  another way of looking at something? sunny


Sure, any condition/state at any time can almost always be viewed from a number of different perspectives. Right/wrong. Who is to decide?

Right now at the Taoist forum we are talking about the concept of useful/useless. The example being used is a tree that is totally useless for any carpenter. However, its uselessness has provided usefulness to the tree itself as it has been allowed to grow to its fullest capacity.

If we are useful we will be used by others. If we are useless we will be left alone so that we can follow our natural course.
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:42 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

Wouldn't it be wonderful if the questions could change?  Many of them are stale and the answers too.
But perhaps its more about finding different answers to the questions - trying to think out of the box.
Maybe only the genius is capable of that.
I really have to get that book by Nagel "The View from Nowhere". That would open up my mind for more?


“Even if we acknowledge the existence of distinct and irreducible perspectives, the wish for a unified conception of the world doesn’t go away. If we can’t achieve it in a form that eliminates individual perspectives, we may inquire to what extent it can be achieved if we admit them.”
― Thomas Nagel, The View From Nowhere


How can anyone ever get bored with ideas like this?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

.........................................................


Quote :
I can't speak of Nagel as I do not know any of his writings.  Capable expressed himself well.  Hehehe.

Something about your "hehehe" made me laugh.
Yes, Capable expressed himself quite adamantly.

I use my "Hehehe" to indicate that I might be BSing. I do have a MS in BS.



Quote :
But really, it seems that every generation must ask their questions.  Most are redundant as are the answers.

Yes, and answer them.
But when we ask "ourselves" questions about our individual personal selves, hopefully we come up with different answers, those we were not able to see or did not have the courage to see.
But at least science moves forward in time.

When I speak to this concept I almost always include a statement that if we are going to be truthful with only one person in our life it should be with our self. If we continually hold to our illusions and delusions of our self we will rarely ever be truthful with others.


Quote :
Looking for and finding different answers is fine as long as they are within the realm of reality.  Floating on cloud nine is a nice thought but it really can't happen except in one's own distorted mind.

True.  But let us not throw away the baby with the bathwater.

But sometimes the baby isn't worth keeping.


I want to thank you for responding to me in here. It is for the most part only my realistic nihilism lol which keeps me afloat here...which gives me a more relaxed perspective, devil- may- care attitude..especially in light of everything which goes on within the world. I'm a "whittler".

I am enjoying the discussion. It causes me to use my brain. At my age that is important.

I am totally opposed to nihilism. Albert Camus helped me with that. I care even though my caring likely won't make any difference to anyone except my self. I sometimes call myself an "optimistic realist".



What is that quote from Casablanca about ...

“Ilsa, I'm no good at being noble, but it doesn't take much to see that the problems of three little people don't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world."

That must have been Boggy who said that.


We sometimes view ourselves as being much more important than we actually are.....all things considered.
All we have to do really is to compare what we are experiencin and havee with what others are experiencing and have not and voila there goes the wood dust onto the floor. cheers

I often compare my conditions with those less fortunate than I but never with those who are more fortunate than I. That allows me to be more thankful for what I do have and the many life experiences I have had.

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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:26 pm

Sisyphus


Quote :
There was a time before I put on agnostic clothing that I felt that God had a given purpose for me...but not now. I'm sure there are many who believe God's purpose for them is their purpose.
I think it's only human to feel that - perhaps it's because we need the affirmation that it comes from Something larger or greater than ourselves - and we need to feel in accord and harmony with God. But I don't know. I'm sure psychologically speaking, it's more complex than that.

There have been studies regarding this and it seems there is a tendency, perhaps an instinct, to believe in something greater that what can be observed directly of the universe.  It's almost like we are programmed to believe in a "higher power".  Agnostics doubt - atheists deny.

"Imago".  Part  of the collective unconscious or not-so collective unconscious.  
It isn't so easy to break that pattern or any pattern which  holds  us within its grasp for that matter.

Perhaps what the agnostic and atheist have in common is what it is that they choose to doubt or deny.
I'm not so sure that the atheist absolutely denies God - just a question of what can be called "God"...for lack of a better word...certainly not the judaic/christian god. It may be at times more about christian dogma and doctrine.

I certainly cannot deny that there has to be some kind of cause and effect, Something, considering the universe but what it is, its reality, I cannot grasp hold of. The only name I have for it is "energy". lol



Quote :

This is true too I think in a great sense.  But does it run even deeper than that?
Sometimes it is just so difficult to shake off that eerie sense  that there is  planned (for lack of a better word) purpose or destiny- though I don't really "believe" that at all. It's just a conglomeration of all of our living experiences and thoughts I think...a synergy of sorts.

As mentioned above.  But also your last sentence is valid, I think.

I think that my last sentence is valid too. Ah, will we ever get to the bottom of it. This is where philosophy is both frustrating and wonderful at the same time. Who needs to have all the answers. And do those answers have to be the same for everyone?
Subjective truth is not necessarily absolute truth. But we can have collective truth, no?
We can also feast on the mysteries. I'm a Keat's negative capability fan.




Quote :
Sad about you having been attacked.  Sure, the agnostic view - doubt therefore caution.  And then, our brain is regularly making connections based on past experiences that we all too often do not pay attention to.

What IS sad is that there will always be predators walking this Earth.
Can it  be more than just "doubt therefore caution". That works great for science and medicine I think, no? Philosophy too though perhaps not as "pressing" with philosophy. It doesn't necessarily hold human lives in the balance but I may be wrong there.
I'm an agnostic more or less because I simply choose NOT to believe what I cannot know ergo I withhold judgment when I realize I cannot know.
I've come a long way from my believing for the sake of believing and being made comfortable about a thing.




Quote :
By cause and effect, can you also mean "living experiences"?   I sometimes wonder if my purpose and destiny are ALSO as a result of the memories of some of my ancestors flowing through my bloodstream? That might have soundest weird to you. lol
It doesn't make our actions and responses any less self-determined and autonomous.

Yes, "living experiences" must be included.

The rest of your paragraph is Jungian.  I hold to that only to our mother's side.  But I generally avoid speaking to the concept.[/quote]

As for your last two sentences, before I ask a stupid question that I had in mind, what do you mean by that, insofar as your mother's side goes?

 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 2:13 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
Arcturus Descending wrote:

Yes, isn't it marvelous - we ourselves are micro universes - we mimic the greater universe.
Let's not forget dark matter, black holes, gravity. We are multitudinous...lol

And don't forget dark energy, thought to be 70% of the totality of the universe.  Pushing away is important too.

How can I forget something which flows through me?(They have  no little devil smilie in here - oh well).  We all experience that dark energy but we need to harness it and re-direct it.

Into internal alchemy, are you?  That's the kind of stuff those folks talk about.  

I had to look up "internal alchemy" had no idea what it was. lol Having said that, obviously I do not practice that.
I was just speaking more of the human psyche and comparing it to the Universe.


 

___________
Each of our lives is a part of the lengthy process of the universe gradually waking up and becoming aware of itself.


Philosophy is the childhood of the intellect, and a culture that tries to skip it will never grow up."


"If I thought that everything I did was determined by my circumstancse and my psychological condition, I would feel trapped."

Thomas Nagel
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 4:52 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

"Imago".  Part  of the collective unconscious or not-so collective unconscious.  
It isn't so easy to break that pattern or any pattern which  holds  us within its grasp for that matter.

I do not accept either collective consciousness or collective unconsciousness.  Common traits of the animal species is as close as I will get to that concept.


Perhaps what the agnostic and atheist have in common is what it is that they choose to doubt or deny.
I'm not so sure that the atheist absolutely denies God - just a question of what can be called "God"...for lack of a better word...certainly not the judaic/christian god. It may be at times more about christian dogma and doctrine.

I, an Atheist, deny he existence of any gods, ghosts, and bigfoots.

I certainly cannot deny that there has to be some kind of cause and effect, Something, considering the universe but what it is, its reality, I cannot grasp hold of. The only name I have for it is "energy". lol

Sure, energy is fine.  I use the word "Chi" but use it in the same manner I would use "energy".  There is universal Chi and there is personal Chi of all living things.
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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I think that my last sentence is valid too.  Ah, will we ever get to the bottom of it. This is where philosophy is both frustrating and wonderful at the same time. Who needs to have all the answers. And do those answers have to be the same for everyone?
Subjective truth is not necessarily absolute truth. But we can have collective truth, no?
We can also feast on the mysteries. I'm a Keat's negative capability fan.

I have often said that sometimes the questions are more important than the answers. No, we don't need to know all the answers. But we should have our questions well defined.

And I also often speak to the subjective/objective concept. Objective truths are rare as they must be absolutes. And yes, we can have subjective truths in common. They may or may not be objective truths as well.

Yes, we can enjoy our experiences with the mysteries and not even need to define the cause/effect. We call that "living in the now". Observation without judgement.


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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:16 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

What IS sad is that there will always be predators walking this Earth.

Yes, it is the way of nature.

Can it  be more than just "doubt therefore caution". That works great for science and medicine I think, no? Philosophy too though perhaps not as "pressing" with philosophy. It doesn't necessarily hold human lives in the balance but I may be wrong there.
I'm an agnostic more or less because I simply choose NOT to believe what I cannot know ergo I withhold judgment when I realize I cannot know.

I have nothing to add to this and I think your view is valid. Yes, withholding judgement as much as possible is a good philosophy.

I've come a long way from my believing for the sake of believing and being made comfortable about a thing.

There should be valid support for what we believe. I used to believe in the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. And there was support for believing. The support wasn't valid though.

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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:24 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

As for your last two sentences, before I ask a stupid question that I had in mind, what do you mean by that, insofar as your mother's side goes?

A fetus is inside its mother's womb for nine months. To a certain degree the fetus is experiencing the same experiences the mother is experiencing. This experiences imprint on the fetus. The same is true with the mother's mother. These experiences will be in the unconscious mind. Therefore a connectedness from child to mother, to mother, to mother, etc.

There are no stupid questions. Some may be inappropriate and others may have obvious answers and really didn't need to be asked.

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PostSubject: Re: Emotions    Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:29 pm

Arcturus Descending wrote:

I had to look up "internal alchemy" had no idea what it was. lol Having said that, obviously I do not practice that.
I was just speaking more of the human psyche and comparing it to the Universe.

Hehehe. But what you mentioned is some of the stuff internal alchemists concern themselves with. Realists seek long, healthy life; dreamers seek immortality.

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