Eurofascism

The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things. European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.

Thrasymachus wrote:

The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

Good points. It's how Trump won the elections, by being censored.

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I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Yes, absolutely, Im with you.
If a society cant withstand free speech, it is already dead.

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Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things.

The opposite indeed.
Italy has always freely published Mein Kampf and has an untroubled fascist segment, and probably because of this no one is actually denying the Holocaust. At worst some argue that it was a good thing, I suppose. Most will disagree, so case closed.

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European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.

Its not even a basic human right (as rights, by nature, cant be all that basic, since all possible rights contradict certain other possible rights, thus legality is always a mess) but a basic human property. Without free speech, humanity is not.

Fantastic point... not a right but a property. Yes. I said "right" in so far as the freedom to speak without repercussions of legal force and censorship is paramount to the kinds of beings that we are; I see rights as simply expressions of the facts of the kinds of beings that we are. Governments do not give rights, governments either acknowledge the rights we naturally have (own, as you point out) or fail to do so.

The notion of God-given rights comes closest to this, saying God-given rights is just another way of saying that these 'rights' are integral to what we are. No one "gives" them. We had to invent and tie this to a divinity figure in order to articulate it properly, at least 250 years ago.

Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.

Yes, this is truly a breakthrough.
Right is a word,  concept, just like Being is.
As humans, we have the right (duty qua full humanity!) to interpret our concept of Human Right in the most responsible way.
That means to derive it directly from what in our most profound explication of our valuing, a Human Being is. Whatever this is, it must be expressed by us in Rights.

In as far as General Rights go, that is integral to whatever we conclude about General Being(s).

Fixed Cross wrote:

Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.

Yes absolutely... I used to be somewhat intuitively against the idea of ownership, I remember writing about this in DFIOS, and I ended up going back and re-writing that section because my thoughts changed on it. I regret that the version Pezer has still has the old writing in it, because I recall he was also a proponent of this notion of ownership being significant.

Ownership is simply the basic category of the individual; we 'own' ourselves, our speech, our thoughts, our emotions, out behaviors, our tendencies, our goals... and as you point out, this isn't simply a static biological sort of property but is rather that which we are as natural activities, as human life so-called. We are self-valuing, which logically necessitates a whole host of related properties and attributes and requirements. All of these "owned" things come from values.

Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility, the ability to dispose of something according to how we want to do that. Of course ownership/property are abstract concepts, it isn't as if we really literally "own" in a metaphysical sense, but rather the entire notion of ownership is like the logical basis-structure for how we as self-valuing act and enact in the world; ownership is the abstract dimension of being, but tectonically-speaking it is quite physical and not at all "merely abstract". Therefore the philosophical or legal recognition of the idea of ownership and property is just a way of setting that sort of being which we are properly on track with the sort of living, requirements and expectations that are essential for us.

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Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility,

Wow, this is the core essence. This brings us finally onto the bridge from valuing to value - what makes valuing valuable, a first tectonics.
I'd even leave out the 'self-' - it is an extension of responsibility.

A selfvaluing is a value to other selfvaluigs on account of its responsibility for its values.
Thereby it both stabilizes itself, and makes itself predictable and potentially accountable, and it creates the possibility for other valuings to recognize those values it upholds as its responsibility, and value them also. Cosmos is the result. Or: economy.

Nazis with masks. Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law. So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.

Sisyphus wrote:

Nazis with masks.  Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law.  So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.

Fixed Cross wrote:

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.

Yes, I did notice the respect N had for Bismarck. (I am Prussian on my mother's side (Yunker).)

And I agree, his link with Wagner was only via the arts. When Wagner became openly anti-Semitic the link was broken.

I can't recall N ever being negative toward Bismarck or the trend of the government.

You are half Prussian? Delightful!

If you havent, watch this movie. Ive rarely watched, no strike that, Ive never watched an American film that was this straightforwardly informative.

I haven't seen that yet. I'll put it on my list of things to do. Thanks.

I think Eurodeath is a clear indication of the consequences of Marxism. These socialist countries have become disconnected from reality, that is what socialism means. Disconnect from reality and call that a virtue. Really that is all leftism means, at least in current form. Classical liberalism actually values reality, but Marx fucked that up for everyone.

Swedes and Germans and French and Dutch and English simply cannot reason or even feel something like the danger they are facing. They no longer live in the real world. They apologize when their own people get raped and killed, and talk about tolerating rape and murder, where they actually acknowledge it's even happening which isn't often. Lemmings with VR headsets is the current ideal.

I would guess the only method for bringing people back to reality would be war. It's sad this has to be the case but I can't imagine anything less will work.

EU imposing sanctions against three European nations over their refusal to allow their countries to be destroyed by mass immigration,

https://euobserver.com/migration/138216


To the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland I say: nice work. Congrats on having some balls, and keep it up. The USA is with you on this one.

Yesterday I welcomed a new member to the Daoist forum. He live in Greece. Said there weren't many Greeks left. Most seem to be moving out of the Muslim nation.

Seems that the Persians have finally defeated the Greeks.

Europe defeated itself. Marx is the new god now, a pure deathgod.

This is indeed half about the ME empires feeling entitled to owning Europe, theyve always said it, in recent years they screamed for Rome.

That Greek was likely exaggerating, Greeks are rather proud and, as we know, they've endured many, many more occupations than any other European nation. From the Romans to the Nazis, they're used to being oppressed. They dealt with the nazis more bravely than most, and I expect them to fight through this the coming centuries.

Europe has however indeed defeated itself. Another way of saying what happened is that Germany managed to win the war in the end. It is now like it would have been in the Third Reich: anyone who says anything against Germany policies and German ideas will suffer the wrath of the entire horde, that the population has been turned into.

But Germany can only defeat itself too - it has no temperament for enjoyment. Once it has sufficiently weakened the rest, the war will start.

Just more idiocy and suicidal levels of denial from Europeans,


Stranger: I hope the EU will be a fedration soon, and will be No.1 by power and economy.
Stranger: Ciao!
You: Lol
You: 10 million medieval poor people with no skills
You: Good luck with that
Stranger: 2
You: And who are breeding at huge rates
Stranger: million
You: It is way more than 2 milion
You: France along has been taking in over 200,000 a year since 2003
You: Germany takes a million a year
Stranger: in germany there about 5% muslims
You: The number of only Turks in the EU is 5 million
You: Lol
Stranger: and the EU has 500.000.000 citizens
You: You dont understand how 5% with 6 kids on average per 2 people is going to overpopulate the rest with 1-2 kids per 2 people, at most
Stranger: support Hillary
Stranger: K
You: You dont really understand population demographics I guess
You: Fuck Shillery
Stranger: I understood you
You: I can find a video to educate you on this issue, but Im sure you dont care
Stranger: YOU MUST BE VERY POLITE
Stranger: and probably 'well-educated'
Stranger: lol
You: why do i care about being polite?
You: I am well educated yes
You: I care about being honest
You: Sorry if you dont
Stranger: just be more polite n thats it, everything else is OK with u
You: Fuck that
You: Polite is what brought you to hell in Europe
Stranger: ....
You: Enjoy more of that I guess?
You: Smile and be nice and apologize to the foreigner who stabs your kid
Stranger: #Make America'Geat'Again
Stranger: yeah sure
Stranger: lol
You: Europeans are suicidal
You: Every time another Muslim kills Europeans, what do the Europeans do?
You: They come out in support of Muslims and immigration
You: Haha
You: Unbelievable
Stranger has disconnected.


This is the level of "thinking" that I get 90% of the time from anyone I talk to in Europe.