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 Eurofascism

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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:41 pm

The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things. European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:36 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
The danger of censorship is that by censoring something you stop your own ability to properly attack and discredit it, because you don't need to anymore-- you can simply throw the other guys in prison. Censorship actually strengthens the censored positions, because it means they aren't being challenged openly by facts and in the free market of ideas. Censorship also gives the impression that whatever is censored is dangerous, which makes it more interesting to people... "how is this dangerous, why? What is going on in this viewpoint here that is so threatening? Why isn't anyone actually arguing against it? Maybe they don't have good arguments against it, could that be the reason?" Etc. goes the thinking of people.

Good points. It's how Trump won the elections, by being censored.

Quote :
I am a strong defender of free speech. The test of free speech is whether or not unpopular and offensive speech is also protected, because if it isn't then there isn't actually any freedom of speech at all. Censorship is enforced by a particular government and positions and people in power, and the perspective and narrative of those people is going to determine what is free or unfree speech.

Yes, absolutely, Im with you.
If a society cant withstand free speech, it is already dead.

Quote :
Look at all the holocaust denial stuff for example, these viewpoints and the people who hold them aren't going away just because Europe has made it a crime to say such things.

The opposite indeed.
Italy has always freely published Mein Kampf and has an untroubled fascist segment, and probably because of this no one is actually denying the Holocaust. At worst some argue that it was a good thing, I suppose. Most will disagree, so case closed.

Quote :
European censorship is strengthening that which is censored, both directly and indirectly. But that is a secondary argument; the primary argument is of course that freedom of speech is a basic universal human right and if you don't like what someone else is saying then you can either argue against it with your own speech or you can choose not to associate with that person and just walk away. That is a properly human, rational position based on self-respect and the refusal to use force against others merely because you don't like what they are saying.

Its not even a basic human right (as rights, by nature, cant be all that basic, since all possible rights contradict certain other possible rights, thus legality is always a mess) but a basic human property. Without free speech, humanity is not.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:41 pm

Fantastic point... not a right but a property. Yes. I said "right" in so far as the freedom to speak without repercussions of legal force and censorship is paramount to the kinds of beings that we are; I see rights as simply expressions of the facts of the kinds of beings that we are. Governments do not give rights, governments either acknowledge the rights we naturally have (own, as you point out) or fail to do so.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:43 pm

The notion of God-given rights comes closest to this, saying God-given rights is just another way of saying that these 'rights' are integral to what we are. No one "gives" them. We had to invent and tie this to a divinity figure in order to articulate it properly, at least 250 years ago.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 4:56 pm

Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:00 pm

Yes, this is truly a breakthrough.
Right is a word,  concept, just like Being is.
As humans, we have the right (duty qua full humanity!) to interpret our concept of Human Right in the most responsible way.
That means to derive it directly from what in our most profound explication of our valuing, a Human Being is. Whatever this is, it must be expressed by us in Rights.

In as far as General Rights go, that is integral to whatever we conclude about General Being(s).

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:02 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Right, so a basic human right should be interpreted as any state or activity that one can not impede without reducing the being from a nominal human to something less.

This means we can define the human being in terms of its natural activities, rather than merely as a list of biological attributes. So we can define a human being in terms of a human life. Thats a big leap forward.

Yes absolutely... I used to be somewhat intuitively against the idea of ownership, I remember writing about this in DFIOS, and I ended up going back and re-writing that section because my thoughts changed on it. I regret that the version Pezer has still has the old writing in it, because I recall he was also a proponent of this notion of ownership being significant.

Ownership is simply the basic category of the individual; we 'own' ourselves, our speech, our thoughts, our emotions, out behaviors, our tendencies, our goals... and as you point out, this isn't simply a static biological sort of property but is rather that which we are as natural activities, as human life so-called. We are self-valuing, which logically necessitates a whole host of related properties and attributes and requirements. All of these "owned" things come from values.

Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility, the ability to dispose of something according to how we want to do that. Of course ownership/property are abstract concepts, it isn't as if we really literally "own" in a metaphysical sense, but rather the entire notion of ownership is like the logical basis-structure for how we as self-valuing act and enact in the world; ownership is the abstract dimension of being, but tectonically-speaking it is quite physical and not at all "merely abstract". Therefore the philosophical or legal recognition of the idea of ownership and property is just a way of setting that sort of being which we are properly on track with the sort of living, requirements and expectations that are essential for us.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:05 pm

Quote :
Ownership is key. Ownership is simply an extension of self-responsibility,

Wow, this is the core essence. This brings us finally onto the bridge from valuing to value - what makes valuing valuable, a first tectonics.
I'd even leave out the 'self-' - it is an extension of responsibility.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Fri Apr 14, 2017 5:10 pm

A selfvaluing is a value to other selfvaluigs on account of its responsibility for its values.
Thereby it both stabilizes itself, and makes itself predictable and potentially accountable, and it creates the possibility for other valuings to recognize those values it upholds as its responsibility, and value them also. Cosmos is the result. Or: economy.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Sat May 20, 2017 9:52 am


    "The Identitarian Movement, which has around 500 members, promotes “traditional national values” and is also strongly opposed to illegal immigration into Europe. The movement said their Friday protest targeted Justice Minister Heiko Maas and his proposed law, which received a first reading on Friday, designed to force social media platforms to quickly remove unlawful, offensive comments.“Justice Minister Heiko Maas is dissatisfied with the already existing censorship on Facebook and Twitter, and would now force these companies to take even more rigorous action against what the German government does not want to see on social networks,” the group said in a statement.The Identitarians last made headlines in August when they climbed the landmark Brandenburg Gate, hanging a banner on the monument reading “Secure borders, secure future.”The anti-immigrant movement is monitored by domestic intelligence agency BfV for becoming increasingly radical and possibly breaching Germany’s laws on xenophobia."


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"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Yesterday at 12:45 pm

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Yesterday at 5:10 pm


 

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"We must, now armed with such a language, realize the “transcendental unity of ideas,” through a new morality that aims, not to hypostasize experience and grasp in positive knowledge a series of particular virtues and vices, but rather to fully explicate this continuity; where philosophy exists to represent this transcendental order, morality most exist to mediate the two spheres, the spheres of experience and ideality." --Parodites

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Yesterday at 7:00 pm

Nazis with masks. Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law. So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Yesterday at 7:57 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Nazis with masks.  Anything negative said against the governments' policies is in violation of the law.  So much for free speech.

But then, the Germanys were never all that good at free speech anyway.

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Today at 5:39 am

Fixed Cross wrote:

Which is the reason Nietzsche never speaks of his contemporaries holding the powers of his own country, which were rather significant to the coming century of war.

Bismarck was Nietzsche's contemporary, and it is evident how much respect N has for him if you read between the lines -
He was himself from Prussia as well.

Not much is spoken of this tie, weirdly. It seems far more important than his relation to Wagner.

Yes, I did notice the respect N had for Bismarck. (I am Prussian on my mother's side (Yunker).)

And I agree, his link with Wagner was only via the arts. When Wagner became openly anti-Semitic the link was broken.

I can't recall N ever being negative toward Bismarck or the trend of the government.

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Today at 9:43 am

You are half Prussian? Delightful!

If you havent, watch this movie. Ive rarely watched, no strike that, Ive never watched an American film that was this straightforwardly informative.


 

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PostSubject: Re: Eurofascism   Today at 11:08 am

I haven't seen that yet. I'll put it on my list of things to do. Thanks.
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