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 VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism

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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:03 pm

There seems to be a natural tendency for people to desire to collectivize (Styxhexenhammer called it a desire on the part of people to organize, which desire basically renders anarchism impossible) and there are various reasons for this. But whenever this tendency reaches an apex and takes over the general political will and thought of a society, that society starts to lose its ontic coherence.

An entity's existence depends on its maintaining ontic coherence. This is also what we call self-valuing.

Collectivism, so called, only has a proper existence as the natural overflow of values from a strong, coherent self-valuing. A self-valuing will share its values with whatever falls within its broader values-sphere, with whatever it values. But obviously those values must exist, and that self-valuing must be free to share or not share those values. Values cannot be compelled from a self-valuing without distorting those values, cutting out their natural existentiality, and also not without seriously harming the self-valuing from which values are taken. Future valuing possibility is seriously undermined by values-theft, even if that theft produces a momentary increase in values-availability and 'work'-effort.

Individualism is the philosophy that implicitly centers itself upon the fact of self-valuing. Collectivism is a name for various ideologies that are based the perversion of self-valuing in one form or another as theft of values.

Marx codified collectivist tendency within political application and sentiment, and attempted to use scientific-analytic/Hegelian methodology to reinvent economics in terms of the controlled and coordinated, "scientific" theft of values, which of course means the grinding down and eventual termination of self-valuing; remember that a self-valuing is always the source of a value, any value.

The economic model of scientific collectivism coupled with the freeing of the psychological constraints upon the natural impulse to desire to collectivize, led to humanity becoming infinitely malleable and able to be manipulated by applying a two-prong approach: 1) control their economic situation to produce values-theft and redefine this as "progress" and "production", and 2) manipulate the public sentiment around moral issues in order to pervert thinking with shallow virtue politics and 'wedge issues', building upon existing cultural differences to produce distinct classes that can be pitted one against the others. The combination of 1 and 2 produces the modern political landscape. Almost no one can think past it.

Machiavelli, Luther, Kant..... Hegel, Marx, Freud... Nietzsche... the analytics, the deconstructionists and post-modernists... this is all one very long progression, or rather regression. But it is possible that this regression is a necessary one, if human/western societies and people are to generally come to understand some basic facts and truths, to become more philosophical. The philosophical mind must at first entertain the worst ideas, in order to discover how and why they are the worst, but in order to do this he often first must believe (in) these ideas. Penetrate them from the inside, see and understand their essence, devote himself, and then come to discover the shame of doing so. Shame is indeed among the first signs of truth.

---

A political philosophy, system and sentiment based on Individualism is very rare, because it centers power away from "the powerful" and upon the average existential valuing, in order to mimic nature and natural selection so that values compete and value-rising or value-falling becomes a natural consequence over time of "what works". If the Individualism is proper this means it creates a closed system where values rise and fall only to the extent they adhere to the existentiality, and even capitalist production is bound to that existentially.. This is also why capitalism is often confused with "social darwinism".

Social darwinism, like cultural relativism, implies a lack of truth, of centering values, and of common valuing. But there are centering values, and there are common valuings. This is precisely what self-valuing means, and the human race has emerged, fractured and different as it is amongst itself, from the same natural-ontological conditions and at the behest of the same universal truth-condition and firmament. Truth cannot be killed or destroyed, it can only be covered over or simulated. The simulation of truth is what much philosophy has tried to do, and what science often does; but simulation of truth is just another form of covering truth over, and if truth is covered over and buried then it eventually starts to live again, as all of the negative side-effects of being covered over like that.

Collectivism used to be an intellectual position, now it is a pure religion. Thus it will not die so easily, or perhaps ever. Christianity, perhaps unknowingly, centered the religious upon the individual, cutting out the self-valuing space from dependency on the status quo of existing social, economic and ideological power-dynamics. Islam reversed this trend and thought that one must submit oneself to Allah only, rather than as Christianity thought we must submit ourselves to each other, and to our personal relationship with the divine. Christianity is Greek, I do not know what Islam is, Arabic perhaps, but I don't really understand Arabic culture enough to know what that means. Greek culture adopted the category of the individual, every God-divine was a manifestation of an individual tendency and will, and individual desiring permeated the mythological structure, thus nature itself was reinterpreted as primarily human, as a self-valuing knowable by the mind and reason. Greeks liked to think; Christianity thought about God, Islam felt about god. Or at least that is my naive reading of history.

Monarchy, theocracy, socialism, communism, and oligarchy are all forms of Collectivism. As far as I can tell the only political equivalent of Individualism is a Constitutional Republic. I simply cannot even imagine another political system aligned with Individualism than a Constitutional Republic. Constitution enshrines individuality as value, as law and right; Republic tempers the tyranny of the majority of pure democracy into a partial system where elected leaders are still trusted to make independent decisions based on their own thinking and values, but who are ultimately accountable to the people whom they represent. And because of that indirect, removed relationship you have a secondary mechanism whereby commonly-held valuing is able to permeate upward into leadership but not, at the same time, defining or over-determining that leadership. A nice middle ground is formed.

For Individualism to be instantiated the people/society must be supremely confident in themselves, full of joy and hope, and possess a very keen strength and underlying existential unity. Otherwise the people/society will prefer collectivist models. Perhaps the early Americans, after winning their independence and coming into possession of vast lands of unlimited resources and beauty, were the only people who could really instantiate a properly Individualist politics.

 

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"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle


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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:16 pm

All values come from individuals. The only rational justification of a society is that it exists to allow its individuals to produce values and to exchange those values freely with others.

 

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Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:18 pm

There are no exceptions. Even something as simple as water fits this. Water is a value to us, but we must act to acquire that value. And even something as complex as the Internet also fits; nothing is created or used except by individual self-valuings by and for self-valuings.

 

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"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:03 pm

I agree that individualism doesn't work well in politics.

But it is with individualism where improvements to living standards are found.

And I will agree that societies rely on collectivism in order to function.

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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:54 am

After the colonialism period in the 1500s to late 1700s or so, when this started to finally draw back upon itself and the paradigm was shifting, the peoples of the third world in S America, ME, Africa, S Asia all had the chance to seize their destiny and rise up to claim their nation-states and cultures back for themselves, to follow the American example of Independence. And to a degree this did start to happen, even though colonial powers maintained a presence up until WWI.

But what disrupted this process was two things: Marxism came along and co-opted the revolutionary impulse for independence, and then WWI and II further disrupted the local and nation-state economics and societies throughout the non-western world, after which the west was free to redraw the maps and sink its hooks into these other countries, with bribes and threats and military occupation and orchestrated political coups for example.

This is how collectivism won in the non-western world. A subtle and malicious process of values-hacking snuck in, from mid 1800s to post-WWII, and took over these places, altered their future and set up the conditions for what we see in the world today.

 

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"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:04 am

Note that the Netherlands relinquished Indonesia only in 1949.
About 100 million people were possession of the Dutch Crown, even while the Netherlands were Hitlers bitch.

 

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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:54 am

And it's getting worse, not better. Globalization is a joke. Just another power play.

Of course, most of the third world countries can't get their stuff together in order to make an effort to evolve.

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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:12 am

A great irony is that the only real "social construct" is socialism itself, the whole edifice of social construction theory. This theory made up the idea of social construction because... that is precisely what it is itself.

So Marx tried to value himself in the shadow of Hegel, and ends upon appropriating Hegel's Absolute Spirit into a false idea that society is entirely separate from biology, earth, and 'hard realities'; that society-history is purely a fictional and arbitrary thing, therefore may partake of Hegelian universality, therefore any and all evasions and selective blindness to facts are justified to that end.

 

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Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Mar 23, 2017 11:22 am

I won't say anything negative about socialism at this point but I could say many negative things about how it is applied, especially in the USA.

But I still don't like my money being taken by government and given to people who are too lazy to get a job and earn an honest income for themselves.

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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:23 pm

Thrasymachus wrote:
A great irony is that the only real "social construct" is socialism itself, the whole edifice of social construction theory. This theory made up the idea of social construction because... that is precisely what it is itself.

So Marx tried to value himself in the shadow of Hegel, and ends upon appropriating Hegel's Absolute Spirit into a false idea that society is entirely separate from biology, earth, and 'hard realities'; that society-history is purely a fictional and arbitrary thing, therefore may partake of Hegelian universality, therefore any and all evasions and selective blindness to facts are justified to that end.

Yes, Socialism replaces the human entity with the entity of "Society", which does not exist save as a kind of Titan who devours his children and ultimately himself.

The idea that all humans would fit in one societal scheme could only be conceived by a mind steeped in slavery, deprivation and the will to extinction.

 

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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:30 am

Specifically on communism: I now know exactly what communism is. I mean precisely what it is.

Communism is literally a force of disorder and destruction that arises within a society and culture, and targets that society/culture for disorganization and destruction. You can think of a society and culture as one substance, one 'thing', even though I realize that the concepts of society and culture are each touching on something different, but it is useful to take those differences and combine them into a single sociological-political-historical-psychological substance. That is what these things are, tectonic substances, physical realities that are from our perspective not physical at all but rather intangible, abstract and ideal.

Such a substance as is the society, culture, history, people, traditions, etc. of a region is diverse and subtle, very complex overlapping and interacting values-fields that create multi-dimensional structures. This substance slowly grows over time, per the nature of any living thing, as it expands and interacts with the outside and inner-interacts within and amongst its own elements, creating newer more derivative layers all the time. Eventually a bulk of capital is created that acts as the skeletal structure of this substance, and a hard shell covering it over and protecting it, allowing it to push out against the world in more powerful and decisive ways. This layer of capital growth atop the substance is at first soft, thin, relatively weak, but over time becomes hardened, thicker, stronger, and shields and protects the society/culture substance from which that capital has been generated and to which it belongs.

Now the substance is armored, it is armored by its 'hardened capital'. The danger of hardened capital is that it becomes too rigid and heavy, to the point where the social/cultural substance begins to be strangulated and burdened under that weight; this capital acts like a new substance entirely, and there is a natural push to re-write the existing social/cultural substance in terms of that bulk of capital which happens to exist at the given moment, in accordance with the particular desires, perspectives and pathologies of those people who happen to be the controllers or owners of that capital at that time.

In other words, growing capital is not naturally distributed amongst society/culture in such a way as would reflect how that capital came into being. The bulk of capital came into being by the combined derivative efforts of all aspects of that society/culture, interacting in very complex ways by very complex logics that simply cannot be traced beyond the most salient; the actual onto-epistemo-logical structure of a society/culture is impossible to model but can be understood generally in theory as being a thing of complexity, richness, variety and chaotic-emergent causality on par with the body of any advanced living organism. And these substances are non-teleological, they do not naturally have an end-goal state toward which they are working except to say that each such substance is indeed a self-valuing, and therefore its end-goal state would be to maximize the situation of its own valuing-selfing.

So now we have these substances engaging in conflict and war outside of and within themselves, attempting to create the situation where the bulk of hardened capital becomes organized newly and according to a new principle whereby the "weight" of that capital is no longer strangulating a large portion of the social/cultural substance itself. This natural tendency toward obtaining certain kinds of situations whereby the bulk of existing hardened capital is made to be reorganized in new ways in order to alleviate the pressures and imbalances within the substance itself is the true cause of the 'revolutionary impulse'. In other words, satisfied people do not revolt, which is something that modern capitalism has figured out.

This pressure and the natural tendency to alleviate it create complex dynamics that lead to the obtaining of certain kinds of situations that would prove to be capable of tending to cause reorganizations of existing capital structures, namely the social/cultural substance is always experimenting with its own possible structures to find a better structure, similarly to how genetic reproduction naturally contains gene replication errors in order to allow for the possibility of change and new states obtaining. It is important to note that these new states cannot be envisioned before the fact, this sort of change is entirely ex post facto, "accidental". This is because, again, the social/cultural substance is far too complex, logically intricate and subtle to ever be able to model and trace it in any practical manner. (Attempts to predict and force this substance into new changes will only succeed to the extent that such proposed or desired changes are simple enough to be so crudely enacted, imperfect enough to allow for flexibility of the inevitably imperfect result, and if one does not care about the fact that crudely manipulating the substance in this manner is quite literally closing off whole universes of potential future states and situations that could have and would have naturally obtained by the infinitely greater subtlety and logical intricate complexity of the substance itself when compared to the machinations of those who would wish to steer society in this or that direction.)

Now we have a basic understanding of the situation and the substance, so where does communism fit in?

Communism is a force attempting to release nuclear energy from the substance. Communism pulls apart existing relations within the substance in order to release energy from this destruction. For example, the "structural" relationships at the political or economic level, the "molecular" relationships at the community and family level, and even and eventually also the "atomic" relationships at the level of the individual person/psyche itself. Communism aims to provoke these kinds of pulling-apart nuclear reactions in order to release stored energy; this stored energy had formerly been used for maintaining the onto-epistemo-logical structures and for allowing self-valuing to occur at higher thresholds than it otherwise would be occurring, thanks to the existence and maintenance of those onto-epistemo-logical structures at both the individual, family, local community, and state levels. All of those levels each possess their own being, but are also each only one part in a larger being, namely in the environment in which self-valuing finds itself and by which self-valuing is able to self-value to its highest capacities, translating and interacting with as much truth and as many truths as possible.

The building-up of the social/cultural substance in order to effect that substance as this kind of environment suitable for the highest kinds of self-valuing is a very long historical process, and again is a natural process very much 'geological' in nature, whereby derivative layers grow tectonically and create meta-frameworks allowing for new kinds of relations and objects, and just as the root breaks through the rock so too do these kinds of substances break through the harder realities of the natural world and into the light of the moral universe, into the possibility for responding to and knowing facts, values, reason in a more and more direct manner. This whole building-up process is very slow over time, a gradual accumulation.

What happens with communism is that the imbalances within this substance with respect to the distributions of its bulk of hardened capital atop the social/cultural milieu of the substance itself are taken advantage of to cause seeds of internal disorder and destruction to take root, like cancers, within the substance. The first communists (Marx for example) figured out that if you pull apart existing substance-relations there is a sort of energy that is released from this; this energy is chaotic in nature and tends to have a destructive effect, because it is not integrated into the larger substance and environment but rather represents precisely the destruction of a small part of that substance and environment. The substance is now beginning to attack itself in a very profound way, it is becoming cancerous as the communist idea infects self-valuing with lust for forcing new capital-arrangements into being that would ostensibly be more advantageous to that communist self-valuing itself. But all that is secondary causality, more like catalysts and setting up the situations in the practical sense; the real reality of communism is simply its being this destructive disordering force ripping apart existing relations within the substance. Any number of excuses and justifications can be used to trigger and grow this force within the substance.

Communists will prey on people's disaffections, their desires, their frustrations, their embarrassments, their inabilities, in order to trigger nuclear reactions. The communist hopes that these reactions will cascade in chain reactions causing the communist idea to self-perpetuate and take over the entire society, such as occurred in Russia and China. It is important to see that the communist agitator is really a very careful practitioner of this philosophical/'spiritual' method of attempting to work directly with the substance to provoke a specific outcome; I am not at all convinced that Marx et. al. had no idea what they were doing, I think all of these early communists must have been at least somewhat deliberate in their intentions and methods. But the communist idea is naturally intoxicating for people whose self-valuing has been damaged or limited in some crucial way, because it offers them a religious escape and excuse for these traumas and failures. Communism is indeed a religion, which is why it does not tolerate other religions (it is 'atheist').

Communism is a religion of self-worship of the idealized capacity for working; I say idealized because real work can never be rationalized in that way, real work is work of the earth, work as and within and for the substance of the social/cultural and for setting self-valuing properly in its relations to truth. Communism disregards these relations and removes self-valuing from its contexts, forsakes the earth, and attempts to realize a religious neo-substance directly in reality and without any pretext, precursor or vision. Communist must burn up the existing social/cultural substance, first in nuclear reactions to spread communism to a threshold point of self-sustainability and second in using the existing capital and substance relations and objects as fuels, burning these to produce the life-substances that will satisfy the people from moment to moment. The whole central planning, top-down authority aspect of communist economics is no accident, it is an integral part of what communism does to the existing substances and capital: in communism's 'spiritual' (philosophical) attempt to form a religious kingdom on earth, it must simultaneously reject the earth as such and make direct use and consumption of the earth in strict linear manner in order to satisfy the basic needs of the people who are now communist. Because the earth has been abandoned it can no longer provide for the communists and the communists can no longer truly work with the earth, therefore their only recourse to survival is to seize everything around them and appropriate it into new destructive-consumptive processes, digesting the whole history and capital development of the past and present which becomes their 'new earth' upon which they attempt to found their religious kingdom.

The problem with this, obviously, is that each communist regime starts with only a finite amount of substance for it to destroy and digest in this manner. Eventually that substance is all but gone, and new substances must be found. Because communism deliberately severs man's links to the earth, and to truth, warping his self-valuing in this religious process, any "work" that occurs under communism is going to be bare minimum slavery producing simply the goods needed for the moment, without any natural capitalistic subtlety and certainly without the subtler dynamics and derivative logical complexity of the substance of the society/culture itself, for indeed communism has severed that link to the past and has done everything it can to consume the past entirely. Communist regimes therefore have a very short lifespan of growth as they consume the culture and capital around them, after which a period of increasingly slower growth and eventually stagnation sets in. The USSR only lasted 70 years; communist China has only lasted 68 years so far. And the tyrannical authoritarian methodology of communist regimes is no accident either, this sort of superstructure of state central power and absolute control is needed since, after all, the communist system has forsaken the earth itself as well as the earth of self-valuing as such. It can no longer trust anything to be that which it is; everything must be remade in the religious image of the communist death-idea.


So communism is literally this destructive and 'nuclear' force, and it is also the logical consequences that must follow from such an act occurring en mass within the social/cultural substance. The communist impulse is the impulse of a horde of rats, rats that are starving and who decide rather than improve their situations they would rather tear down their situations and hope that there is enough existing capital for them to steal in order that their lives will be better off in this 'new (religious) world'. But the high is very short-lived, if indeed there is any high at all.

 

___________
"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:44 am

It is also important to note that communist Russia began right after WWI, and communist China began right after WWII. What does this mean? It indicates that in the destructions and ravages of war, and in all the poverty and misery that war produces, is found a very fertile ground for laying the seeds of the communist idea within the social/cultural substance of a people. We may yet see this same thing occur in the United States and also in Europe, if there is another large-scale war; indeed, we saw it occur partially in the US and Europe already, after WWII when the ideals of socialism spread far and deep within the US and European people and institutions. But the substances of the US and Europe are far stronger, older, and deeper in truth and self-value than were the substances of the Russians or the Chinese, therefore the communist takeover after WWII was only of limited success in the US and Europe.

If there is a WWIII, we can be sure there will be a further attempt to cause the US and European nations (their social/cultural substances, their histories, their peoples, their traditions, their capital, their ideas, their subjectivities, etc.) to fall to communism just as the Russians and Chinese did.

 

___________
"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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PostSubject: Re: VO Studies: Collectivism vs Individualism    Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Communism is a potent religious-mystical system that can be very easily used by a small number of people to take over an entire country. In all likelihood communism was designed precisely with this in mind.

This is why it is so important to resist communism, and to resist the temptation of easy power that it offers. Socialism is sort of a "communism lite" that succeeds because it threads the needle of remaining a little bit authentic while also employing a little bit of communist magic for personal gain. This is why we must always uphold principles and reason, philosophy, self-value, over all temptations to easy personal power.

 

___________
"The highest-order danger is articulated speech." --Jordan Peterson

Aw Shit, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RIW59yai0_I

"I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." --Aristotle
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