The Nietzschean Cauldron

Fixed Cross wrote:

Something snapped in you just now.

VO tends to do that to the powerless.

You claim to have power, but evidently you do not.

I'll ask your guardian, Sisyphus, who had done such a good job in taming you, to step back in. I don't have any talent for dealing with totally deranged wills.

Funny. Yeah, Myki still trips on his own ego. It's way too big and keeps getting in the way.

Buttons. Push the right button and Myki explodes. (Sorry Myki, just the truth as I observe it.)

Capable wrote:

Myki, I do not understand what is so difficult about the questions that I asked, or why you have not answered them yet?

me wrote:

And what is your definition of intelligence? And how do you know that no one has surpasses N in terms of it (something you would have no way of knowing, incidentally).

Please address this somehow.

Your challenge was too early in the young man's life. I would have simply said Albert Camus and let you disprove me.

Myki2 wrote:

We were ok good vibes and then this ??
i see new pespectiv guys thank you

Consider the possibility that sometimes it is best to remain silent.

Yep. The discussion got emotional again. That always screws things up.

Capable wrote:

The reference is here at our website, I am sure you can figure it out. I gave you the citation link after all.

Suffice to say, you should study the various writings here... Nietzsche is great, but philosophers were never meant to worship idols. Nietzsche wants you to surpass him. Every philosopher longs for only one thing above all others: to be surpassed.

Very nicely said. True, Nietzsche was not trying to become the superman. He wanted us to become the superman.

Capable wrote:

I guess it's a question of what you want to get out of reading a philosopher. Love is good for a while, yes. But love can also blind, and impose strange limits on us.

The lover will accept anything for the sake of that love. We should only be prepared to love Truth like that.

I don't use that four letter word very often. It is one of the three forbidden words: faith, hope, love.

Myki2 wrote:

truth is our value

A profound truth. Seems the potential of becoming a superman still exists.

Fixed Cross wrote:

The mountain of Nietzsche is high and steep. I can only offer ropes from peaks and fires in the distance, as I will not go down on the side where you are - I want to be on the side where I am.

We all are exactly where we are supposed to be at any given point in time. We can climb the mountain, go around the mountain, of just say "to hell with it".

First there is a mountain,
Then there is no mountain,
Then there is.


Equally,

Before enlightenment,
Chop wood and carry water.

After enlightenment,
Chop wood and carry water.

Okay. I'm caught up. Save for the little emotional session it was a very good discussion.

I rarely state truths. I speak of my opinions and understandings. It is up to others to determine whether or not what I have said is a truth.

Nietzsche was a truth-sayer. I simply try to be a mirror.

I think I may have set the immortalist kid (cool name, n o?) to thinking - with the idea of increasing population.

Its true beyond argument that immortalism would cause increase in population density, and tit is likely true that this would cause scarcity and violence.

We likely are programmed to die simply to make space. It is better for us if our type has in its genes that it dies after a while.

Genetic code is thus not only pertinent to the specimens survival but to the species and its environment as a whole.

Survival, even life itself, is a means to ends. Making life itself or survival itself the goal of philosophy or of.. life or survival, is a gross negation, effectively putting the cart before the horse. This same error transposed into economic life is what modern capitalism does to money, transforming it into an end in itself. It's a very un-philosophical move. Nietzsche understood all this, to his credit; the ER is balanced against Amor Fati, this is no "live forever" but simply a kind of early stage development of attempting to make a stable image that serves to organize philosophical valuing given the fact that life and survival themselves are essentially, in themselves, purely meaningless.

Regarding population, the earth is already over populated with humans.  We are destroying the habitat of many other species and causing their extinction.  If immortality were a possibility that would increase the problem a hundred fold.  It wouldn't be long before the human animal became extinct.

I can't really recall Nietzsche speaking to the concept of immortality.

That's because N wasn't stupid enough to actually value "living forever". We should recall that even the gods envy man his mortality.

C - I would say that in the other way - that life is essentially entirely meaningful.

In that "meaning" only pertains to one thing: life.


The practice that started with Socrates, of discerning meaning from non-meaning, is a sickness, as was Socrates. "Meaningless" is a deeply specific meaning that came into being as a counterpart to "God". Neither have ground, but both are meanings - all is subsumed with meaning, but life is its only pure vessel.

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That's because N wasn't stupid enough to actually value "living forever". We should recall that even the gods envy man his mortality.

Thats a trad from google i coudnt find the english version, he wrote this at 17 years old, he was already a transhumanist at that age before writting any books i hope you know this poem, it's my favorite one.

Friedrich Nietzsche, "Poems and Dionysus Dithyrambs"

"Without homeland.
Fast steeds carry me
Without fear or doubt
Towards the distant immense.
And who sees me knows me,
And who knows me calls me
The Lord homeless.
Boldly! Forward !
Do not abandon me,
My luck, O bright star you!
Because I have never been linked
A space or fugitive pm
I am as free as the eagle.
Boldly! Forward !
Do not abandon me,
My luck, O gracious month of May!
One day I must die,
Kiss the cruel death,
I hardly believe.
Should I go down to the grave
And never again drink
The fragrant froth of life?
Boldly! Forward !
Do not abandon me
My luck, O multicolored dream! "
(Pforta, August 10, 1859)

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Regarding population, the earth is already over populated with humans.

First : we can put 7 billions peoples in a state of the size of texas( it will look like tokyo)
Secondo : hyper civilized country like japan for example loose 1 million person per yer, with very low fertility'+ women can have children later, so more of them wait longer
Tertio : Without that it would be very mean to not giving life to new human beings you are selfish damn XD
Quatro : like the universe is not big enough lol damn i wanna see your house pls

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I think I may have set the immortalist kid (cool name, n o?) to thinking - with the idea of increasing population.

It's a good name, i like it          im tired to think actually lol philosophy must be considered as a sport !

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this would cause scarcity and violence.

Hmm i think when scientist we will reach full ageing reversal, it's gonna be like the best party in the world with everybody in a state of trance ( other will be very confuse lol)

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We likely are programmed to die simply to make space.

Thats very true but we learning to programing ourself and we doint it better and better at an exponential rate

Fixed Cross wrote:

C - I would say that in the other way - that life is essentially entirely meaningful.

In that "meaning" only pertains to one thing: life.


The practice that started with Socrates, of discerning meaning from non-meaning, is a sickness, as was Socrates. "Meaningless" is a deeply specific meaning that came into being as a counterpart to "God".  Neither have ground, but both are meanings - all is subsumed with meaning, but life is its only pure vessel.

To me, life has no intrinsic meaning-- life does have meaning but only because life is given meaning by other things. For example, not all lives are equally meaningful nor are all lives even meaningful at all, some people prefer to die. And some people die despite having plenty of meaning. "Life" is just an abstraction, an imagined default or universal state of given meaning, which doesn't actually exist. Only specific meanings exist.

Trying to live life for its own sake is empty. The only possible meaning that can come from it would be that such an attempt ends up actually energizing other meanings than "life itself", which it usually does, and which is why no one can ever really live for the mere sake of living.

The desire for life "itself" is a cloaked desire for specific meanings. That's fine, but we should be clear what we're talking about. The transhumanist desire is nothing but the desire for a Heaven, which of course does not exist and never will. Only specific, delimited, and finite meanings actually exist-- these we call our values.

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To me, life has no intrinsic meaning-- life does have meaning but only because life is given meaning by other things. For example, not all lives are equally meaningful nor are all lives even meaningful at all, some people prefer to die. And some people die despite having plenty of meaning. "Life" is just an abstraction, an imagined default or universal state of given meaning, which doesn't actually exist. Only specific meanings exist.

Trying to live life for its own sake is empty. The only possible meaning that can come from it would be that such an attempt ends up actually energizing other meanings than "life itself", which it usually does, and which is why no one can ever really live for the mere sake of living.

The desire for life "itself" is a cloaked desire for specific meanings. That's fine, but we should be clear what we're talking about. The transhumanist desire is nothing but the desire for a Heaven, which of course does not exist and never will. Only specific, delimited, and finite meanings actually exist-- these we call our values.

please read Ecce Homo do me this favor, you have the audiobook on youtube

and stay focus please

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 im tired to think actually lol philosophy must be considered as a sport !

Yeah cause its Greek.

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   this would cause scarcity and violence.


Hmm i think when scientist we will reach full ageing reversal, it's gonna be like the best party in the world with everybody in a state of trance ( other will be very confuse lol)

Fair point. Joy about immortality does go a long way of compressing people like sardines. Look at India.

My philosophy of politics is about creating a new calendar that pproduces a greater health and is consecrated at the end of each cycle by great global festival.

We alreay have this with our solar year and Christmas and all, but it can be expanded vastly.

I've read it. It's a good book.

Why don't you show me where you think N makes any kind of claims in there espousing a desire for Heaven? You know he thought of himself as the Antichrist right?

Transhumanists are just confused Christians. The religion of Science is a newer denomination of Christianity generally.

Capable -

To me "life" is a "meaning" but also "meaning" is just what emerges out of life.

I can not really work with words as realities - they all mean the same to me ultimately. The category Value contains both the entire categories Meaning and Life - given of course self-valuing logic.

What is "meaning"? What does "Meaning" mean? I dont think we can talk about anything except f we axiomatically assume that all we address is going to be interpreted as a part of "Meaning".

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To me, life has no intrinsic meaning-- life does have meaning but only because life is given meaning by other things. For example, not all lives are equally meaningful nor are all lives even meaningful at all, some people prefer to die.

But then they disappear and cease to exist - by this the meaning is finally extinguished. Also many people die because of excess of meaning; sorrow or shame or regret.

Thought is impossible without meaning, so is feeling - all orientation requires meaning first, in order to discern one things value from the next.

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And some people die despite having plenty of meaning. "Life" is just an abstraction, an imagined default or universal state of given meaning, which doesn't actually exist. Only specific meanings exist.

Yes, this is true. And I'd say that that it is an abstraction precisely means that we can relate to it as humans, that we can speak of it. We can only speak of it as meaning - this it is in my mind suffused with meaning.
I think concepts entirely as phenomena - not as representations. Tectonically - ?

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Trying to live life for its own sake is empty. The only possible meaning that can come from it would be that such an attempt ends up actually energizing other meanings than "life itself", which it usually does, and which is why no one can ever really live for the mere sake of living.

Yes that is Hedonism. We live for honor, philosophy, love, beauty, creation posterity - values beyond ourselves.
N lived for the Overman. And since he created his own ideal, he also lived to live for the Overman - he lived for others to live for the overman - so as to live truly for themselves, and for life - but as life, rather than as a prisoner contained in the mind of Aristotle looking at life.

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The desire for life "itself" is a cloaked desire for specific meanings. That's fine, but we should be clear what we're talking about. The transhumanist desire is nothing but the desire for a Heaven, which of course does not exist and never will. Only specific, delimited, and finite meanings actually exist-- these we call our values.

Yes - but the transhumanist angle that I can value as a Nietzschean is the pure scientific possibility of locating the aging process. There is a drive to every Nietzschean, and sometimes it can actually be discerned. As N says, goals are always only masks for drives -- this is why I wanted to discern precisely what kind of transhumanist the kid is.

It is possible that his immortalism is a symptom of a properly high drive -the drive to science.

In as far as that concerns out task, it concerns the concept ruling the last phase of Nietzsche's earthly works:
"Discipline and Breeding"

Cultivation -
Once the peak of Nietzschean philosophy is scaled, the valleys begin to shimmer with grey dew.

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I've read it. It's a good book.

Why don't you show me where you think N makes any kind of claims in there espousing a desire for Heaven? You know he thought of himself as the Antichrist right?

Transhumanists are just confused Christians. The religion of Science is a newer denomination of Christianity generally.

cant put link yet

search  google "image" : transhumanism religion then look at the picture with all religions symboles with the checked symboles

that's not the absolut truth that our ultimate project

Locating the scientific biological basis of the aging process has just as much philosophical significance as locating the scientific biological basis of the process by which fingernails grow. Which is to say, none at all.

We abstract the idea of "life as such" only because we came to understand that one day we will die. There is no life itself. There are just specific space and time limited values. Try to imagine stretching out a value forever, it is impossible. Immortality devolves into madness against the ennui of eternity, the same infinite boredom that cursed God and compelled him to create Man so that he might taste dying and non-existence through dying on a cross.

Can you even imagine what would happen to your values and meanings if you tried to stretch and attenuate them across eternity?

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Yeah cause its Greek.

There is a very very controversial theory that says if the greeks great 'fall' would have not happened we would reach nanotech era may be 500 years later xD

i have personaly no opinions on this lol

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Immortality devolves into madness against the ennui of eternity

When you are God, your power is multidirectional
In another words 'ennui" is a biological phenomenon (that must be considered with respect cause it make us think to how to not get bored) that can be controlled with nanotech devices (guys nanotech its not science fiction its just like LEGO that all it is)