The Nietzschean Cauldron

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :

Why do you hate it? Why do you love it?

i love it because i understand it, i hate it because few people "can" understand it... beside all others books are clear like caribbean waters,(dont forget the annotations please) it's the last book you need, like i said it's a celebration book, just dance whatever he saying.....

What do you understand about it? What are a few of your primary insights, or inspirations, or ideas that you draw from the book or that you think were Nietzsche's point to communicate in writing it?

Quote :

What do you understand about it? What are a few of your primary insights, or inspirations, or ideas that you draw from the book or that you think were Nietzsche's point to communicate in writing it?

I posted (just for you) in the beggining.... the most important part of the book, if you don't get it after everything i said beside this, i can't do anything for you.


If you want to test me, just give me quotes and i will work on them only because you are so "pernickety"....

Damn ....the part i posted was so important that even Malher composed a symphony with this stuff xD i can't do this lol

but Strauss did a better job but it's about the beggining of the book...

i can explain you the choosen "notes" from this one, have you ever studied neuroscience of music ?

The questions I just asked you are very simple ones, in particular for someone who truly understands that which he claims to understand. Perhaps you can help me help me understand your unwillingness (or inability) to answer them?

Quote :

The questions I just asked you are very simple ones, in particular for someone who truly understands that which he claims to understand. Perhaps you can help me help me understand your unwillingness (or inability) to answer them?

You becoming an obstacle to me.... the answers i gave you are even simplier, don't go "there" with me, just let it go....

Myki2 wrote:

That's the most impossible thing of the universe, you can't free yourself from a "truth" you believe in, you can't go back, that's why i dont like "imprison"...

Interesting thought. Is it "free from truth" or rather "free with truth"?

[quote="Myki2"]

Quote :

You know, i was thinking about how old your books are because the research on Nietzsche never stopped and the latest books are in my opinion, fundamental.....200 pages of annotations per book, i dont think old versions have that stuff, so my advice....buy high quality expensive latest books !

Well, some of them were bought in the mid-1980s.

I will buy Walter Kaufmann translations if he did a translation of Nietzsche's originals.

Fixed Cross wrote:

I started reading in a book by him.
As usual with strong old texts, I find things true are conflated with facile vanities, such as here:

"Therefore I say, the Perfect Man has no self; the Holy Man has no merit; the Sage has no fame.8"
http://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu.html#1

Surely I have brought forward the very same thought in this thread, that a Self does not exist - but this is only because Merit is rather too great for a fixed framework - and fame, if it is acquired for merit, is like the memory of taste that an apple leaves with a satisfied animal. It is very unwise to frown on fame, and even less wise to frown on merit.

Let us then understand what Zhuang Zhou means with Merit, where things have been lost in translation, and where in the 100 schools of thought a valid notion of value is to be found....

Regarding the translations of Chuang Tzu, Lin Yutang is enjoyable to read but he translated only the Inner Chapters. I normally use Burton Watson if I am going to reference anything from Chuang Tzu. Watson presents a very smooth English presentation of the old Chinese characters.

I think you might find that the word "merit" is more at "taking credit" for his/her accomplishments. (If you take no credit it can never be taken away from you.)

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :

The questions I just asked you are very simple ones, in particular for someone who truly understands that which he claims to understand. Perhaps you can help me help me understand your unwillingness (or inability) to answer them?

You becoming an obstacle to me.... the answers i gave you are even simplier, don't go "there" with me, just let it go....

Thing is Myki, when ever a person claims to be an expert there will always be others ready and willing to test the expert's knowledge and wisdom.

Just above I spoke to "claiming credit". It's not too bad allowing others to call you an expert but it is still best to not acknowledge such offers of merit.

Quote :

Interesting thought. Is it "free from truth" or rather "free with truth"?

No free from, no free with, we can only "obey" to our vision of the power.

Quote :

Well, some of them were bought in the mid-1980s.

I will buy Walter Kaufmann translations if he did a translation of Nietzsche's originals.

Translations is not the major issue, its the annotations part that is capital ! the books that i have doesnt seems like its a one man's work....

Quote :

Thing is Myki, when ever a person claims to be an expert there will always be others ready and willing to test the expert's knowledge and wisdom.

i told him , if he want to test me, im ready just throw the quotes in the lions cage !

Quote :

Just above I spoke to "claiming credit". It's not too bad allowing others to call you an expert but it is still best to not acknowledge such offers of merit.

this in the beggining:

Quote :

Myki I'm just being honest, you don't really seem like a Nietzsche "expert" to me.

the guy who is skeptical about Nietzsche , telling me this ! how should i react ? ; Wait and now he asking me

Quote :

what are a few of my primary insights, or inspirations, or ideas that i draw from the book

.... like i said nothing in two weeks, basicly he asking me to restart ? sorry but no ! beside he said

Quote :

I was really shocked by how uninteresting and not profound much of it was

in another words everything i said looks like that to him to..i'm blessed....knowing that we remember only 5% of what we read(not sure about that...) the 5% that he kept looks not profound and uninteresting...great situation

Quote :

he asking me what are a few of my primary insights, or inspirations, or ideas that i draw from the book

i don't know how you deal with poetry guys but it's a risky buisness and Zarathustra is pur poetry..... why we don't just put this book aside for a moment and we will come back on it later.... when there are easier books that can help us to progress a lot faster ?  i just try to be pragmatic !

The cow from Zarathustra is one of the most important animal, because she take her time with what she absorbe, she chew slowly without precipitation....this is how knowledges should be eated.

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :

Interesting thought. Is it "free from truth" or rather "free with truth"?

No free from, no free with, we can only "obey" to our vision of the power.

Quote :

Well, some of them were bought in the mid-1980s.

I will buy Walter Kaufmann translations if he did a translation of Nietzsche's originals.

Translations is not the major issue, its the annotations part that is capital ! the books that i have doesnt seems like its a one man's work....

Seems to me that you believe you have no free will - that you are destined to greatness. I won't personalize this disagreement with you regarding free will but as I understand it, to exercise the will to power one must have free will else (s)he is just another herd animal.

Yes, translator is the most important thing. The same thing applies to Taoist texts. If you read a translation of the Tao Te Ching or The Chuang Tzu translated by a Christian or a Buddhist you will not be reading the truth of Taoism.

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the annotations. But I'm sure there are many translations that are joint efforts from a literary institution. A couple I have seen don't even mention who the translators were.

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :

he asking me what are a few of my primary insights, or inspirations, or ideas that i draw from the book

i don't know how you deal with poetry guys but it's a risky buisness and Zarathustra is pur poetry..... why we don't just put this book aside for a moment and we will come back on it later.... when there are easier books that can help us to progress a lot faster ?  i just try to be pragmatic !

I think you are mistaken about the value of "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Nearly all of his important philosophical concepts are contained within.

Sisyphus wrote:

I think you might find that the word "merit" is more at "taking credit" for his/her accomplishments.  (If you take no credit it can never be taken away from you.)

That makes a lot of sense then.

This is why it is virtually impossible to translate philosophy. One single unclear translation can turn the entire meaning of a text upside down. In my mind "merit" means basically "value", and of course the point of the sage is to purify value, not to eliminate it.

I know other Nietzscheans who cant handle Zarathustra. It is true that they then miss much that is crucial - but still without Z Nietzsche still offers more than most.

Quote :

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the annotations.

a note of explanation or comment added to a text or diagram.
marginal annotations
synonymes: note, notation, comment, gloss, footnote, commentary, explanation, interpretation

The annotations sections is the key !

Quote :

I think you are mistaken about the value of "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Nearly all of his important philosophical concepts are contained within.

No i don't, his entire philosophy poetizes ? It's a masterpiece, the first words gave me goosbumps straight away the first time i read them, felt connected big time !

Quote :

Seems to me that you believe you have no free will

Your vision of the concept free will is too emotional, too human, too confused....
Philosophicaly, scientificaly and mathematicaly (Lee Smoolin physic theorist lectures) there is absolutly no debate about the phsychological error of "free will", Genealogy of morals could be called "book about no free will".

Quote :

I know other Nietzscheans who cant handle Zarathustra.

And i know Nietzscheans that can't handle his entire philosophy ^^

You're stuck at a categorical error that Nietzsche at least intimated and avoided, although doesn't well explicate it.

Free will and determinism are the same thing. Free will does not not exist just because of determination-- it exists because of determination.

Quote :

You're stuck at a categorical error that Nietzsche at least intimated and avoided, although doesn't well explicate it.

What are you talking about ? "although doesn't well explicate it." because 14 books is not enough explications for you ?

the will to power naturaly eradicate free will, those both concept can not coexist.

Quote :

it exists because of determination.

You talking about the thirst of reaching more power ?

Fixed Cross wrote:

Sisyphus wrote:

I think you might find that the word "merit" is more at "taking credit" for his/her accomplishments.  (If you take no credit it can never be taken away from you.)

That makes a lot of sense then.

This is why it is virtually impossible to translate philosophy. One single unclear translation can turn the entire meaning of a text upside down. In my mind "merit" means basically "value", and of course the point of the sage is to purify value, not to eliminate it.

Nice response. Indeed, philosophy is very difficult to translate.

I had read a number of translations of the Tao Te Ching but it wasn't until after reading a couple translations of The Chuang Tzu that I finally felt I was beginning to grasp the concepts in the TTC.

I can't remember where I read it but if I recall correctly Nietzsche supposedly made up a lot of words that didn't previously exist in order to more fully define a concept. It's really not all that hard to do with German. I sometimes do it myself with English.

Myki2 wrote:

Quote :

I have no idea what you are talking about regarding the annotations.

a note of explanation or comment added to a text or diagram.
marginal annotations
synonymes: note, notation, comment, gloss, footnote, commentary, explanation, interpretation

The annotations sections is the key !

Quote :

I think you are mistaken about the value of "Thus Spake Zarathustra". Nearly all of his important philosophical concepts are contained within.

No i don't, his entire philosophy poetizes ? It's a masterpiece, the first words gave me goosbumps straight away the first time i read them, felt connected big time !

Quote :

Seems to me that you believe you have no free will

Your vision of the concept free will is too emotional, too human, too confused....
Philosophicaly, scientificaly and mathematicaly (Lee Smoolin physic theorist lectures) there is absolutly no debate about the phsychological error of "free will", Genealogy of morals could be called "book about no free will".

I have been a lot of things over the past twenty years but "confused" is not one of them.

Okay, I think I got your "annotations" thing. Except that we still haven't defined if they are Nietzsche's notes or the translator's notes.

Oh, all too human you say I am. That's irony.

And I still am asking: How can one attain a will to power if there is no free will. It is a direct contradiction.

Myki2 wrote:

the will to power naturaly eradicate free will, those both concept can not coexist.

You cannot attain a will to power if there is no free will. I can't get much clearer than that.