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 Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream

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Thrasymachus
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:56 am

But I guess if you're a black president you can get the Nobel peace prize for not actually doing anything at all, and everyone will tell you how great you are and how successful and historic your presidency is even though it isn't great or historic in any way whatsoever.

I honestly feel bad for the guy.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:06 am

Like a good liberal he's been told how great and wonderful he is, even though he hasn't done anything of the sort. What is the Obama economy now? 11% unemployment, if you don't count part time work then it's 26%. No wonder when I applied for a job recently they told me over 200 people applied for it. One job, not even a super great one, just an average job for someone with a 4 year degree and requiring over 2 years of experience, had over 200 applications. In the meantime real inflation is 4 times the official reported number, which means food is almost twice as expensive now than it was 8 years ago (I remember 8 years ago, and it's true). My health insurance costs me the equivalent of two car payments every month, my student loans are even more expensive, and since he "saved" the housing crisis that bubble never burst and now my rent is 2.5 times more expensive than it was 8 years ago.

Yep. Welcome to Obamanomics.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:40 pm

Capable wrote:
Some of them mean well, they've just been told for their entire adult lives that the DFL is wonderful and the GOP is evil. Their values are set in a weird way now.

Im not one of these naive folks thinking that nazis are inherently evil or dont mean well. They are, as Ive found, simply 'good people' with small hearts.

Quote :
In reality, both political parties are shit. But the stranglehold on culture and young people that the DFL now has is especially troubling, it allowed someone so totally worthless as Obama to get elected twice. I can't even imagine a more useless president than him.

Similar to the nazi youth sentiment. It lasts for a while.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:56 pm

Yes and maybe this youth sentiment is just the love of not thinking, which is 'positively' expressed as a love of "feeling". Fascists take advantage of this to hook people's self-valuing to the fascist agenda.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:57 pm

Like vampires they feed on the values of the non-thinking people.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 6:03 pm

Yeah, fascism is basically mob-ism.
All 'collective feelings' are fascist.
Trump got elected over reason, Cl#$nt$##n got all the support she has from the opposite - rampant emotions.

To me, the people that are behind her are the fascists. Like in nazi Germany I blame the people who 'didnt know' about their hero's actions, I blame those silly Americans who at best 'dont know' and usually probably just 'dont care' about the horrific acts of their heroine. That is fascism at its purest.

If we cant blame the people for their own choices, even in hard conditions, we are literally denying them a soul. I wont be soft on any of them, as that is like inviting them to stay in their depraved state. It is not up to me whether they are able to cut the chord with the disease - my task is to express my deep loathing for it. Direct valuing, no softening.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:45 pm

Yes but also remember that Americans are insulated by our mainstream (real fake news) and don't have access to real information. By now they're so dependent on the false paradigm that information when it finally arrives doesn't penetrate very easily... this is the anti-thinking I am always railing against.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sun Dec 18, 2016 1:19 am

Indeed they are like guppies in a tank of disinformation. Still most of them prefer it there. Ive exposed some dozens of people to facts on a regular basis during some months and just no improvement. I figured these folks for decent before, now I just see them as less than animal, a kind of plant life.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:09 am

Fixed Cross wrote:
I figured these folks for decent before, now I just see them as less than animal, a kind of plant life.

WoW! Breaking bad on the folks. But then,

I have in the past referred to some people as vegetables so ...
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:49 am

Its not new; plus its not an insult really. Plants are really cool in fact. To see them as plantforms opens up many new possibilities. For example, we can build forests of innocent dumb shits, where they can be perfectly happy interacting with one another in blissful ignorance of the existence of self-mastery and power. TV can tell them what they want to hear but from now on without that being of any consequence.

No, Im only half serious. I dont think we should actually take stupidity for granted. But then...

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:43 am

It's actually the media's and government's responsibility for what is perceived as the people's ignorance. There is a concept and many discussions I have not gotten engaged in that is called "The dumbing down of Americans." It is suggested that this is an intentional effort by wealthy and powerful Americans. But really, it is just another means for controlling the masses.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 9:24 am

Sisyphus wrote:
It's actually the media's and government's responsibility for what is perceived as the people's ignorance.  There is a concept and many discussions I have not gotten engaged in that is called "The dumbing down of Americans."  It is suggested that this is an intentional effort by wealthy and powerful Americans.  But really, it is just another means for controlling the masses.

Indeed. Any single person's faults of this magnitude of being part of "the stupid TV watching masses" is directly the fault of society "itself", which means a combination of those in power within that society and of the logic of that society itself, structurally-historicaly speaking. Individual people simply become whatever they are able to become, given the conditions to which they are subject. This is the "secret" that is usually missed.

Every time we blame the individual person for being a stupid ignorant TV watcher, we miss the deeper truth: society itself and those within society, who have power and potential to change things and to shape society from this point forward into the future, to craft and enforce values, to mold society in the image of truths, are the ones who have failed. But it is always easier to blame the victims.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:51 pm

Capable wrote:

Individual people simply become whatever they are able to become, given the conditions to which they are subject. This is the "secret" that is usually missed.

I like the way you said that. I speak to this concept often and will likely utilize this phrasing at some point in the future.

Capable wrote:

Every time we blame the individual person for being a stupid ignorant TV watcher, we miss the deeper truth: society itself and those within society, who have power and potential to change things and to shape society from this point forward into the future, to craft and enforce values, to mold society in the image of truths, are the ones who have failed. But it is always easier to blame the victims.

I had an awakening a couple years ago regarding this. I was one of those who blamed the victim. I had been close-minded and was viewing things from only my perspective. (I over-came my limiters so why can't they over-come theirs?) It's just not that simple.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:21 pm

Sisyphus wrote:
Capable wrote:

Individual people simply become whatever they are able to become, given the conditions to which they are subject. This is the "secret" that is usually missed.

I like the way you said that.  I speak to this concept often and will likely utilize this phrasing at some point in the future.

Capable wrote:

Every time we blame the individual person for being a stupid ignorant TV watcher, we miss the deeper truth: society itself and those within society, who have power and potential to change things and to shape society from this point forward into the future, to craft and enforce values, to mold society in the image of truths, are the ones who have failed. But it is always easier to blame the victims.

I had an awakening a couple years ago regarding this.  I was one of those who blamed the victim.  I had been close-minded and was viewing things from only my perspective.  (I over-came my limiters so why can't they over-come theirs?)  It's just not that simple.  

Yep, society makes shitty people.

Those who obtain some sort of power or influence, in whatever sense they have it, have the responsibility to try to help society make better people. This self-valuing principle applies from the president all the way down to the individual family. Writers and artists for example have a responsibility to create things that improve the world, which said most easily means to allow more truth to flourish. And yet most people who obtain responsibility only use it for their own personal short-sighted gain, and couldn't care less how society works for anyone other than themselves.

 

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"Since the old God has abdicated, I shall rule the world from now on." --Nietzsche

"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:50 pm

Capable wrote:
Sisyphus wrote:
It's actually the media's and government's responsibility for what is perceived as the people's ignorance.  There is a concept and many discussions I have not gotten engaged in that is called "The dumbing down of Americans."  It is suggested that this is an intentional effort by wealthy and powerful Americans.  But really, it is just another means for controlling the masses.

Indeed. Any single person's faults of this magnitude of being part of "the stupid TV watching masses" is directly the fault of society "itself", which means a combination of those in power within that society and of the logic of that society itself, structurally-historicaly speaking. Individual people simply become whatever they are able to become, given the conditions to which they are subject. This is the "secret" that is usually missed.

Every time we blame the individual person for being a stupid ignorant TV watcher, we miss the deeper truth: society itself and those within society, who have power and potential to change things and to shape society from this point forward into the future, to craft and enforce values, to mold society in the image of truths, are the ones who have failed. But it is always easier to blame the victims.

Ive thrown out my tv by my own resources. Ive seen how addicted people are to it, and how much efforts they make over decennia to pretend they dont know whats on it is pure trash.

The very moment an individual selfvalues he will throw out his tv. But the tv is what the Church was to the medieval slothful and what 'alla' is to those other guys.... nah. I dont blame anyone but the ones who keep bowing and nodding their empty heads.

This is how I educate them - by telling them how it is. I dont soften the truth, I just tell a zom,bie he s a zombie. Sometimes one wakes up by means of pure rage, first against me, then against his own zombie-ness, which he, through my joy, recognizes as foul and not his own.

Humanity always makes efforts to dumb itself down. Very person who is dumbed down is partaking in that. Its happening for the same reason people die from crack. Crack was pushed, sure, but so were a lot of unsuccessful things. Stupidity is just a really good high for a lot of people, and they dont mind who it kills. Plants are equally undiscerning of their consequences, hence my comparison.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:54 pm

Capable wrote:

Those who obtain some sort of power or influence, in whatever sense they have it, have the responsibility to try to help society make better people. This self-valuing principle applies from the president all the way down to the individual family. Writers and artists for example have a responsibility to create things that improve the world, which said most easily means to allow more truth to flourish. And yet most people who obtain responsibility only use it for their own personal short-sighted gain, and couldn't care less how society works for anyone other than themselves.

Powerful response there. Speaks to some things I speak to but also some things I don't but should speak to. I don't have a problem taking responsibility for what I do and do not do. However, is there more I could do and still feel that I am doing what is natural for me to do?

Thing is, I have become more cynical recently and I think this is holding me back from doing more. I'll have to think on that a while.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:00 pm

Im spending all my time on either taking care of myself or creating things that I think are elevating and liberating. I do this because I have no other desires. That's just me, Ive always been like that. For the longest time I held similar universally-compassionate ideals as you two, now my joy is in the opposite - Christ brings the sword, that cleaves, and I am Christs sword, I cleave the muck so as for the High and the low to both exist on their own terms, and neither of them in the hell of the others world.

This is recent. Since I embraced Christ in fact. Odin prepared me for that. Odin and Christ are both "anarchists". Odin a wanderer, Christ a center. Christ pertains to a stable 0th dimension.

Note I take these names as Symbols, not as actual physical beings. They are psychosomatic realities, self-valuing attributes or even qualities.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:06 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:

Ive thrown out my tv by my own resources. Ive seen how addicted people are to it, and how much efforts they make over decennia to pretend they dont know whats on it is pure trash.

The very moment an individual selfvalues he will throw out his tv. But the tv is what the Church was to the medieval slothful and what 'alla' is to those other guys.... nah. I dont blame anyone but the ones who keep bowing and nodding their empty heads.

This is how I educate them - by telling them how it is. I dont soften the truth, I just tell a zom,bie he s a zombie. Sometimes one wakes up by means of pure rage, first against me, then against his own zombie-ness, which he, through my joy, recognizes as foul and not his own.

Humanity always makes efforts to dumb itself down. Very person who is dumbed down is partaking in that. Its happening for the same reason people die from crack. Crack was pushed, sure, but so were a lot of unsuccessful things. Stupidity is just a really good high for a lot of people, and they dont mind who it kills. Plants are equally undiscerning of their consequences, hence my comparison.

Interesting post. Yes, I have noticed that you are out-spoken and cannot be accused of political correctness.

I still have my TV but it is rarely on prior to my supper time and it is used mostly to while away time until I am tired enough to go to bed and sleep right away. Sometimes I fall asleep watching it.

But what I watch is nature, science, educational, historical oriented. I don't watch any news on TV.

And yes, telling people what you really think is important. That is, the truth as we understand it.

Most people have their addictions. Even I have my coffee and smokes. But addictions that distort our mind is very harmful.

And stupidity can be found in the highest of places.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:10 pm

Fixed Cross wrote:
Im spending all my time on either taking care of myself or creating things that I think are elevating and liberating. I do this because I have no other desires. That's just me, Ive always been like that. For the longest time I held similar universally-compassionate ideals as you two, now my joy is in the opposite - Christ brings the sword, that cleaves, and I am Christs sword, I cleave the muck so as for the High and the low to both exist on their own terms, and neither of them in the hell of the others world.

This is recent. Since I embraced Christ in fact. Odin prepared me for that. Odin and Christ are both "anarchists". Odin a wanderer, Christ a center. Christ pertains to a stable 0th dimension.

Note I take these names as Symbols, not as actual physical beings. They are psychosomatic realities, self-valuing attributes or even qualities.

Yes, you are allowed to say such things. I am not. I'm not a creator - I am a manipulator. (Don't take that in a negative sense.)
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:18 pm

Capable wrote:
Trump is a Christ-figure. By this I mean something very specific: he is an attempted manifestation in living flesh of a pure metaphysical truth. Even his contradictions on things like taxes and outsourcing (he wants to abolish the very tax inequalities that he uses, he wants to end the very outsourcing practices that he uses) are in fact simply expressions of this metaphysical principle that we can call the 'spirit of capital-ism.'

This has also played a part in my embracing of the Christ. It happened on election night, as I sat with the crumbling statue of Jesus on our collective porch here, looking at the moon, in which suddenly a happy family of Donald Trump and Mike Pence appeared smiling.

Christ to me includes Mary, the Lords of Egypt, Magdalene, John the Baptist, Solomon, and is kin to Krishna, Mithras, Horus and son of Zeus. I see that Hebrew Greek figure as a culmination, but therefore also a partial elimination of what such previous forces. An antidialectical process, the crucifixion - in a phrase: the juxtaposition of reality and perfection, the binding of the will to perfection on the cross of matter - therewith creating an arrow of time, a great tension and a direction of discharge. Nietzsche is Christian through and through, that is his sickness, the snake he bites the head off of. His biting is also Christian,. His overcoming of all that was Christian is the very thing the people that got hooked on the Christ discovered as a desire; all the 72 masks that hid the self-valuing from the to-be-formed are gone with the wind as the center of the storm is reached and the impure is expelled with pure violence, purity is so imprinted on it, and hence it finds its will to return to the center, through the current of expelled impurity, (coming into) knowing its own consistency and reaching a higher and higher density and momentum countering the storms two directions, sideways and outward - an inward momentum producing an uncannily straight forward motion.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:31 pm

Sisyphus wrote:

Interesting post.  Yes, I have noticed that you are out-spoken and cannot be accused of political correctness.

I still have my TV but it is rarely on prior to my supper time and it is used mostly to while away time until I am tired enough to go to bed and sleep right away.  Sometimes I fall asleep watching it.

But what I watch is nature, science, educational, historical oriented.  I don't watch any news on TV.

And yes, telling people what you really think is important.  That is, the truth as we understand it.  

Most people have their addictions.  Even I have my coffee and smokes.  But addictions that distort our mind is very harmful.

And stupidity can be found in the highest of places.

I enjoyed that.
For the longest time I worked for television and made efforts to see good in it. It was a gigantic relief to notice that I had no desire to watch the thing anymore, but of course I watch a lot of youtube. The difference is that we can choose.

Nature programs and good series, I have insulted anyone who watches that sort of thing, but I really only speak to the News, and then the Global and National News in particular.

As power corrupts, so does importance of the news corrupt. The more local it is the truer it is bound to be. Just a guy telling his story standing in front of his house where his tree was illegally cut down.

I know I am a sinner, and yet I take pride in my morality. How does that work? Only because I can laugh at myself, and because I am happiest when I do. It's a complex mix, thus I project myself outward with more simplicity. I play the fool I know we all are deep down, and I play it with the pride of a man first create.

But as it happens this is wisdom. Or so it begins to seem. I am laughing more and more, and no longer only at myself.

 

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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:08 pm

I don't disagree, but I see influence as another environmental factor of society at large. For example, without help from Fixed and Parodites I would probably still be thinking about Trump and politics the way I used to. We simply need good influences to reach our potential and push through all of the bad influences. Sometimes those good influences are other people, sometimes they are books (people from the past who continue to influence in the present).

I don't believe anyone individually is destined for any given level of conscious or philosophical development, rather we become who we are  through many complex procedure that are mostly beyond our own control and rooted in the larger social, cultural and family environments that we are exposed to.

This is why self-valuing is such a huge demand of responsibility. We affect one another and others have affected us, helping us become what we are for better or worse. The more influence that we have the greater is the responsibility-power.

 

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"Do you hold out hope, then?" ... "I hold out dignity." ... "She will need opiates before long, for the pain. She will cease being who she is." ... "Then I will love who she becomes."  --Penny Dreadful
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:59 am

Fixed Cross wrote:

But as it happens this is wisdom. Or so it begins to seem. I am laughing more and more, and no longer only at myself.

And don't forget to sing and dance.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Tue Dec 20, 2016 7:03 am

Capable wrote:

I don't believe anyone individually is destined for any given level of conscious or philosophical development, rather we become who we are  through many complex procedure that are mostly beyond our own control and rooted in the larger social, cultural and family environments that we are exposed to.

Agree. And there is a lot more to it than that but not for this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: Trump and Metaphysics: A Continuing Thought-stream   Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:57 pm

"I like signing checks" -D.J. Trump

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrrfRnqqus

Quote :
I don't disagree, but I see influence as another environmental factor of society at large. For example, without help from Fixed and Parodites I would probably still be thinking about Trump and politics the way I used to. We simply need good influences to reach our potential and push through all of the bad influences. Sometimes those good influences are other people, sometimes they are books (people from the past who continue to influence in the present).

On the other hand this is the environment you created, where we thrive. It was besides this your aim to get to the truth.

Quote :
I don't believe anyone individually is destined for any given level of conscious or philosophical development, rather we become who we are through many complex procedure that are mostly beyond our own control and rooted in the larger social, cultural and family environments that we are exposed to.

I think it is wise to not expect predestination, even though I do believe the future may be fixed, I do also think we can not know it - and that by half-knowing it we have a slimmer chance of getting to know ourselves fully. (Oracles and such work to reveal all sorts of things, but they dont reveal what it is that they reveal. So they merely enforce certain thought patterns.)
What I can say is that quality is a consistency that acts like gravity.
You did not accidentally happen upon the thoughts of the other philosophers of this school.
Modesty is good, but you may recall what Schopenhauer said about those that are too modest.

Quote :
This is why self-valuing is such a huge demand of responsibility. We affect one another and others have affected us, helping us become what we are for better or worse. The more influence that we have the greater is the responsibility-power.

Yes. It's enormous. And it's bigger than any of us expected - once the selfvaluing principle took hold in politics, the whole world polarized absolutely. The very electricity of that tension is where our arguments happened. The change of mind was thus pretty much literally like a lightning strike.

 

___________
" The strong do what they can do and the weak accept what they have to accept. "
- Thucydides
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