The Nietzschean Cauldron

Myki2 wrote:

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I don't mind being a guide for someone else but I won't try to live their life. We each have our own path to travel. Sometimes we meet and we can walk together for a while.

You are precious to me Sysyphus, i need your help and i just need your brain power, your advices, your own perspectivs on my tactical choices, that's all, everything i will ask you will not exceeds your competence area. see it as a great adventure where you dont have to move your ass from your chair xD.

I'm sure you have heard this before but I will mention it here: You cannot pour tea in a cup that is already full.

That is originally a Taoist (Chinese) quote.

Any concept we discuss you (and I) must consider the possibility that we have a misunderstanding regarding the concept. We must open our mind just a little so that we can view the concept from a different perspective than only our own.

If you can do this I think we will be fine. (And you might even get some support from other members on the forum as well.)

Myki2 wrote:

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There will always be governments and religions trying to rule the life of the people.

No, those concept are too fragile, they will be removed by more powerfull concepts

Since the dawn of man it has never happened. I won't negate the possibility but it seems to me to be very unlikely.

Myki2 wrote:

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Have you questioned your understanding and it has been proven to be valid? That's what really matters.

Im doin it as we speak and i already requested external expertise on everything i said and on everything that everybody said

Well, it seems to me that we are progressing just fine.

Myki2 wrote:

i asked to a friend that know Stefan Lorenz sorgner to see this topic, i hope he will come, approve me and listen me

I didn't know the person. I had to look him up (yes, on Wiki).

I know nothing about the "transhuman" movement so if this concept does progress I will have to learn along the way.

I did like the term "human dignity" though. But for me this would prohibit any artificial modifications (evolution) of the human animal.

Are you German?

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Since the dawn of man it has never happened. I won't negate the possibility but it seems to me to be very unlikely.

you missed the part in the beggining where im talking about the speed of the technological and mental progress

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If you nullify hate you cannot hate hate. It just isn't possible.

I have a problem with this argument, i will need some time to think and find a correct counter argument lol i think we might find soon if my thinking system is incorrect.

Myki2 wrote:

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Since the dawn of man it has never happened. I won't negate the possibility but it seems to me to be very unlikely.

you missed the part in the beggining where im talking about the speed of the technological and mental progress

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If you nullify hate you cannot hate hate. It just isn't possible.

I have a problem with this argument, i will need sometime to think and find a correct counter argument lol i think we might find soon if my thinking system is incorrect.

Oh, I often miss things. Sometimes I ignore things and pretend I just missed them.

Take your time with your argument. We've got the rest of our life to get this done.

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If you nullify hate you cannot hate hate. It just isn't possible.

Dont you dare thinking that was a hard one, i had things to do :p


Morgan Freeman's voice*

" The will to nullify is a will to.....power"


are we done on Nietzsche ?

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I didn't know the person. I had to look him up (yes, on Wiki).

Can someone ban this guy please ??

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I know nothing about the "transhuman" movement so if this concept does progress I will have to learn along the way.

Transhumanists just dont know they are Nietzscheans that's why they are not fully develloped, that's why you don't know transhumanism yet, i bet you know it a little bit better now...

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But for me this would prohibit any artificial modifications (evolution) of the human animal.

Are you German?

You mean like plastic surgery ? or like giving to blinds new eyes ? please be specific

French

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Transhumanists just dont know they are Nietzscheans

That doesnt work the other way, a Nietzschean know he is a transhumanist

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Any concept we discuss you (and I) must consider the possibility that we have a misunderstanding regarding the concept. We must open our mind just a little so that we can view the concept from a different perspective than only our own.

If you can do this I think we will be fine. (And you might even get some support from other members on the forum as well.)

I sure do know we have a misunderstanding xD as long as it's not me who is in the wrong im all right

My mind is open, i see every persperctiv, they all have the same particularity

I need to prove myself for more support but im confident

Myki2 wrote:

Im sorry but you said transhumanism is not an apealing concept without even checking what its all about. you didnt recognize the exellence of my interpretation of Nietzsche and didnt said any construtiv things beside "forget transhumanism" "the kid is a troll" "the kids does not have it in him"
Debating with you is a very dangerous path to me.

You have insulted greatly too. This is why you were kicked. Consider it a sign of respect for you that we allowed you to stay.

I have been working on my philosophy through science non stop since I was 7, when I figured out that the universe can not have a beginning. I don't take people seriously who don't bother to think through what I write, and I like to kick them around a bit to make them feel what it feels like what they are doing.

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If you are brave, confident, absolutely sure about your understanding of Nietzsche and not afraid of strongs words, i can debate with you 1vs1 without rules on skype or pm, or whatever you want, im ready.

I am still waiting for you to address my challenges. But you first have to go deeper into Nietzsche - I ask of you that you read the chapter I posed of Beyond Good and Evil, and try to reconcile it with your transhumanism.

If you can do that, you will be a big step further in convincing me.

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You have insulted greatly too. This is why you were kicked. Consider it a sign of respect for you that we allowed you to stay.

Im sorry but i dont know why, i have the feeling that by pushing people a little bit, i won us a lot of time, its just a feeling so.....but i am really sorry, that was a risky tactical move, i survived and i consider  your sign of respect with great honor with the feeling that in the end we will all be good friends, i really love philosophy mate !

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try to reconcile it with your transhumanism.

I did, you have to prove me that i didnt.

Sisyphus wrote:

Perhaps I could justify saying that reading Nietzsche could easily lead to nihilistic thinking, or, a false ego.

Nietzsche was not a nihilist as many have claimed him to be.  No, quite the opposite.  The Will to Power is the will to live (on our own terms).

I always suggest to people that they should live their life to its fullest.  We should periodically test our limits.  I think self valuing is important but we must be totally honest when doing so.  Our ego must reflect reality.

Self-valuing does not mean, when I say it, to value ones self, but to value valuing. Value values it-self. This is what the Willl to Power is. Indeed, the will to live - which means not the will to sit still, but the will to ac quire values. Not just air, but love, honor, success; power, happiness -- this is valuing valuing it-self. Love loving itself. Power mastering itself. There is no Self; there is auto-valere, self-valuing.

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   God died so that we may again dwell with the gods.

   They that don't are still standing around a corpse. There are no two ways about it - Man is god(s). That is what Mind means. He is either with god(s) or below the lowest of beasts.

Hehehe. We disagree here. There are no gods. End of story.

That is certainly a proper Taoist position --but not a Nietzschean one.
Nietzscheans understand the term 'god' differently.

The god that died was only Luthers god, the moral code that wants to ruin the body.
Very obviously, there is no Creator God, unless we refer to the Sun, or its own Sun or Black Hole, and its inherent processes as such.

Nietzsche's philosophy consists of an interpretation of two gods. It all starts here:

"Much will have been gained for aesthetics once we have succeeded in apprehending directly-rather than merely ascertaining-that art owes its continuous evolution to the Apollinian- Dionysian duality, even as the propagation of the species depends on the duality of the sexes, their constant conflicts and periodic acts of reconciliation. I have borrowed my adjectives from the Greeks, who developed their mystical doctrines of art through plausible embodiments, not through purely conceptual means. It is by those two art sponsoring deities, Apollo and Dionysus, that we are made to recognize the tremendous split, as regards both origins and objectives, between the plastic, Apollinian arts and the nonvisual art of music inspired by Dionysus. The two creative tendencies developed alongside one another, usually in fierce opposition, each by its taunts forcing the other to more energetic production, both perpetuating in a discordant concord that agon which the term art but feebly denominates: until at last, by the thaumaturgy of an Hellenic act of will, the pair accepted the yoke of marriage and, in this condition, begot Attic tragedy, which exhibits the salient features of both parents." - N, The Birth of Tragedy, p.1.

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However, many years ago I wrote a paper, now long lost, speaking to "God is dead."

I argued that Nietzsche was spoke to the Christians who killed the concept of the Jewish God.

I Aced the paper (for a History course) and my professor showed my paper to the head Philosophy professor and that professor had my instructor tell me that he (the philosophy professor) would like me to take one of his courses. I couldn't because I was in the VA education program and I had to stick to only accepted courses.

But anyhow, I really was already an Atheist before ever reading Nietzsche; I just never acknowledged it.

It was Nietzsche who got me to take the term 'gods' as anything other than an absurd thing. I was raised in a secular scientific, part communist, part artistic environment, where no one believes in god. I have deep loathing for organized religion, and God with a capital is a deeply ugly stupidity.

But the gods live -
my gods motivate me - they speak to me in my heart - therefore they exist. They cause change, therefore they can not not exist.
What they are, ontically, is the same substance as I am - my own valuing.

(to you and a Taoist - by valuing in the human sense  I mean predominantly breathing. Drinking and eating after that, and far beyond that, conscious values Morality is faux-valuing, not actually existent)

Breath is an organisms primal value. When we breathe in, we value the world, when we breathe out, we give ourselves to the world. The breathing cyclus is self-valuing; valuing so as to bring about a Self - which to me is actually what one experiences in the Void - beyond the Ego..

All good psychologists separate Ego form Self - I went a step farther and shopw thast the Self is not a thing, not fixed, but a constant result of love, valuing, breath.

Myki2 wrote:

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You have insulted greatly too. This is why you were kicked. Consider it a sign of respect for you that we allowed you to stay.

Im sorry but i dont know why, i have the feeling that by pushing people a little bit, i won us a lot of time, its just a feeling so.....but i am really sorry, that was a risky tactical move, i survived and i consider  your sign of respect with great honor with the feeling that in the end we will all be good friends, i really love philosophy mate !

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try to reconcile it with your transhumanism.

I did, you have to prove me that i didnt.

You've shown nobility. Welcome.

I now am more comfortable addressing transhumanism as a potentially Nietzschean concept.

I will take it step by step, seeing per value if we can agree.

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Value 1 : Health

I claim that Nietzsche's first standard of value is health.

Here is a citation to support this claim.

Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:

984 (1884)

Greatness of soul is inseparable from greatness of spirit. For it
involves independence; but in the absence of spiritual greatness,
independence ought not to be allowed, it causes mischief, even through
its desire to do good and practice "justice." Small spirits must obey--
hence cannot possess greatness.

II . Dionysus

1003 (Jan. -Fall 1888)

To him who has turned out well, who does my heart good, carved from wood
that is hard, gentle, and fragrant--in whom even the nose takes
pleasure--this book is dedicated.

He enjoys the taste of what is wholesome for him;

his pleasure in anything ceases when the bounds of the wholesome are
crossed;

he divines the remedies for partial injuries; he has illnesses as great
stimulants of his life;

he knows how to exploit ill chances;

he grows stronger through the accidents that threaten to destroy him;

he instinctively gathers from all that he sees, hears, experiences, what
advances his main concern— he follows a principle of selection--he
allows much to fall through;

he reacts with the slowness bred by a long caution and a deliberate
pride--he tests a stimulus for its origin and its intentions, he does
not submit;

he is always in his own company, whether he deals with books, men, or
landscapes;

he honors by choosing, by admitting, by trusting.

1007 (Spring-Fall 1887)

To revalue values — what would that mean? All the spontaneous— new,
future, stronger— movements must be there; but they still appear under
false names and valuations and have not yet become conscious of
themselves .

A courageous becoming-conscious and affirmation of what has been
achieved--a liberation from the slovenly routine of old valuations that
dishonor us in the best and strongest things we have achieved.

[Notes, as translated and compiled in "The Will to Power"

Those that still object, raise your hands.

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You've shown nobility. Welcome.

Thank you mate !

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I claim hat Nietzsche's first standard of value is health.

that's my favorite science field, i want take health to a whole new level ! but need money,  money is God, must show to people the new death of God version 2016 !

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Here is a citation to support this claim.

Mate, Ecce Homo, it's all goosebumps, you remember the part when he is talking about human kind reaching the great awakening ? this is happening now.

I can not comment everything that Nietzsche writted otherwise we gonna loose tremendous time

His philosophy is multidirectional and timeless, you have to read under the lines, when i bought my books long time ago(5 years ago), on every god damn word there was an annotation to tell you that is not what you think lol i read those books over and over and over, when i reached the final test, and understood everything, i get the audiobooks and listen them over and over and over everywhere to be sure i didnt misunderstood a thing and this is only the second time i debate about Nietzsche, because i dont need debate about Nietzsche lol i need debate now because my objectivs are all connected to Nietzsche.

Myki2 wrote:

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If you nullify hate you cannot hate hate. It just isn't possible.

Dont you dare thinking that was a hard one, i had things to do :p


Morgan Freeman's voice*

" The will to nullify is a will to.....power"


are we done on Nietzsche ?

Done? We haven't even started.

Sure, the will to nullify is a will to power.

Myki2 wrote:

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I didn't know the person. I had to look him up (yes, on Wiki).

Can someone ban this guy please ??

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I know nothing about the "transhuman" movement so if this concept does progress I will have to learn along the way.

Transhumanists just dont know they are Nietzscheans that's why they are not fully develloped, that's why you don't know transhumanism yet, i bet you know it a little bit better now...

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But for me this would prohibit any artificial modifications (evolution) of the human animal.
Are you German?

You mean like plastic surgery ? or like giving to blinds new eyes ? please be specific
French

Well, I know now that there are people who believe in the transhumanist philosophy.

Like putting computer chips in the body.

I always enjoyed France whenever I visited. And I did that many times.

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Done? We haven't even started.

Sure, the will to nullify is a will to power.

the act of wanting to nullify something ? if you want to nullify something, do it, but know that you want to do it for reaching more power whatever you think you doin

Myki2 wrote:

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Transhumanists just dont know they are Nietzscheans

That doesnt work the other way, a Nietzschean know he is a transhumanist

We'll reconsider that at some later date.

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Well, I know now that there are people who believe in the transhumanist philosophy.

Like putting computer chips in the body.

we doin it since many years now, for parkinsons, deafs, depression ect...

Myki2 wrote:

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Any concept we discuss you (and I) must consider the possibility that we have a misunderstanding regarding the concept. We must open our mind just a little so that we can view the concept from a different perspective than only our own.

If you can do this I think we will be fine. (And you might even get some support from other members on the forum as well.)

I sure do know we have a misunderstanding xD as long as it's not me who is in the wrong im all right

My mind is open, i see every persperctiv, they all have the same particularity

I need to prove myself for more support but im confident

Let go of "right and wrong" and just enjoy the exchange of thoughts.

Yeah, and I have to prove and truths I present. I don't talk about truths too often. Mostly I speak of my opinions and understandings. But these can and have been changed at times.

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Let go of "right and wrong" and just enjoy the exchange of thoughts.

you right, lets do it like real gentlemans

Still waiting your counter argument :p